RE: 'Finned' Peugeot Le Mans Racer Revealed

[PiB]

Feel free to build a road legal version.

[chevronb37]

freedman said:

Gebhardt did this in 1982 on their C2 car!

Later bought and developed by Ian Harrower as an ADA I believe

Gary Pearson drove one at the Silverstone Classic about 3 years ago I believe. Also, Jaguar had a crack with a fin on some sportscar called the D-Type and WLSR cars have had them since the 1920s so we're hardly talking about reinventing the wheel are we? New Pug looks well and should be good fun to see it going head-to-head with a full works Aston and the latest (R18?) Audi.

[IanUAE]

AutoSport had an article explaining the theory behind the fin. It is related to the effects of high and low pressures on the body when the car is spinning, the fin reduces the chance of the car taking off.

Indycars had fins years ago as well.

[Some Gump]

Ooh, I'm going to see this next year =)

I agree with what he said^ - proper racing cars aren't about looks, style - they're about function and performance. It just so happens that in general a car that is good aerodynamically looks "right" to us humans, in the same way a Swift, or a Marlin looks "right" in the natural world.

If those fins prevent just 1 injury, then they are the right step forward. It might be "manly" to isk your life, but these guys are professional, and do this for a living - you wouldn't work on unsafe ladders, why should they drive unsafe cars?

[Nick M]

chevronb37 said:

freedman said:

Gebhardt did this in 1982 on their C2 car!

Later bought and developed by Ian Harrower as an ADA I believe

Gary Pearson drove one at the Silverstone Classic about 3 years ago I believe. Also, Jaguar had a crack with a fin on some sportscar called the D-Type and WLSR cars have had them since the 1920s so we're hardly talking about reinventing the wheel are we? New Pug looks well and should be good fun to see it going head-to-head with a full works Aston and the latest (R18?) Audi.

All of those fins were to aid directional stability in a straight line at high speed though, not to prevent the car flipping when it spins, slides sideways and gets air underneath.

In essence these new fins should be seen as a 'spoiler' on the upper surface of a wing which is designed to detach the airflow, stall the wing and hence prevent the car getting lift and flying sideways through the air.

Check out the clip of the Oreca crash at Monza in 2008 to see the thing these fins are designed to prevent.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPraqh2iBUc&fea...

About 40 seconds in.

Edited by Nick M on Wednesday 3rd November 09:14

[ceriw]

its all about economics - that fin is a bloody great advertising hoarding aint it.
marketing spin is the answer to the 'its to stop the car taking off.....'

[chevronb37]

Nick M said:

chevronb37 said:

freedman said:

Gebhardt did this in 1982 on their C2 car!

Later bought and developed by Ian Harrower as an ADA I believe

Gary Pearson drove one at the Silverstone Classic about 3 years ago I believe. Also, Jaguar had a crack with a fin on some sportscar called the D-Type and WLSR cars have had them since the 1920s so we're hardly talking about reinventing the wheel are we? New Pug looks well and should be good fun to see it going head-to-head with a full works Aston and the latest (R18?) Audi.

All of those fins were to aid directional stability in a straight line at high speed though, not to prevent the car flipping when it spins, slides sideways and gets air underneath.

In essence these new fins should be seen as a 'spoiler' on the upper surface of a wing which is designed to detach the airflow, stall the wing and hence prevent the car getting lift and flying sideways through the air.

Check out the clip of the Oreca crash at Monza in 2008 to see the thing these fins are designed to prevent.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPraqh2iBUc&fea...

About 40 seconds in.

Edited by Nick M on Wednesday 3rd November 09:14

Thanks, Nick. I understand the principle (in so far as a non-engineer can) but there seems to be some outcry about their appearance generally. Just wanted to add some balance to the argument - one doesn't often hear criticism of the D-Type's aesthetic. I don't really share the cynicism regarding their use as advertising - it has been mandated by the regulations, not by marketing types. Personally I'd sooner have adverts on the cars than blocking my view at race meetings as seems to be the fashion these days.

[geoffracing]

The Leaper said:

I hate fins! In my opinion they look rubbish on F1 cars and even worse on LMPs. However, if safety is in mind then they are inevitable.

R.

I entirrrrrrely agree!
I consider that if one has to add fins, it OBVIOUSLY means the body shape wasn't conceived properly.

O.K. Old racers could do without because less fast.
But today one goes faster and faster thanks to GIMMICKS; today's cars don't "deserve" to go that fast: their shapes are WRONG!

[geoffracing]

ceriw said:

its all about economics - that fin is a bloody great advertising hoarding aint it.
marketing spin is the answer to the 'its to stop the car taking off.....'

You're right: we will be shown a huge ad!
Already today's racers are only moving sandwich-men.

[GrahamG]

geoffracing said:

The Leaper said:

I hate fins! In my opinion they look rubbish on F1 cars and even worse on LMPs. However, if safety is in mind then they are inevitable.

R.

I entirrrrrrely agree!
I consider that if one has to add fins, it OBVIOUSLY means the body shape wasn't conceived properly.

O.K. Old racers could do without because less fast.
But today one goes faster and faster thanks to GIMMICKS; today's cars don't "deserve" to go that fast: their shapes are WRONG!

Nope - it means that the body shape is absolutel;y correct as long as things are going OK - The issue comes when things go wrong!

[geoffracing]

Some Gump said:

It just so happens that in general a car that is good aerodynamically looks "right" to us humans, in the same way a Swift, or a Marlin looks "right" in the natural world.

Most cars today just do not look right.
I know I'm old-fashioned, but when I start looking at
a Lancia D24 or D50,
a Maserati 250F,
a Lola GT70 ,
a 1930 Bentley 4L5,
most Aston Martins,
a Testa Rossa (in 2 words of course!),
etc.etc.
I really do find all modern cars - racers included - absolutely hideous.

[geoffracing]

GrahamG said:

geoffracing said:

The Leaper said:

I hate fins! In my opinion they look rubbish on F1 cars and even worse on LMPs. However, if safety is in mind then they are inevitable.

R.

I entirrrrrrely agree!
I consider that if one has to add fins, it OBVIOUSLY means the body shape wasn't conceived properly.

O.K. Old racers could do without because less fast.
But today one goes faster and faster thanks to GIMMICKS; today's cars don't "deserve" to go that fast: their shapes are WRONG!

Nope - it means that the body shape is absolutel;y correct as long as things are going OK - The issue comes when things go wrong!

Well, I think I see what you mean: if it works well, it means the shape INCLUDING WINGS etc. is right.
I just mean that instead of designing a shape, and then having to correct it with spoilers, one ought to try to design a good shape; wing-type, smooth-type, flat-type, inclined-type, whatever, but one HOMOGENOUS shape.

But there are so many sponsors that spoil the design in any case that I suppose we have to accept ANY odd shape!

[prubbert]

Blue Meanie said:

JMC1 said:

I THINK THE CAR LOOKS GREAT, A REAL BEAST. I LIKE THE WAY THEY HAVE PAINTED THE FIN BLACK AND LOVE THE REST OF THE COLOUR SCHEME REMINDS ME A LITTLE BIT OF THE OLD LOTUS ESSEX COLOUR SCHEMES.
AS PLAY STATION IS ON THE SIDE IS THIS THE CARS THAT ORECA WILL CAMPAIGN NEXT YEAR.

[hotmelt]

PiB said:

Feel free to build a road legal version.

One more vote.

[geoffracing]

hotmelt said:

PiB said:

Feel free to build a road legal version.

One more vote.

On the road? I've never seen anything even slightly similar on the road!
Do you think your wish could come true?!

[chevronb37]

Does anybody else not find the current breed of LMP1 cars to be tremendously exciting to watch? For whatever reason, I haven't been to LM24 in 10 years, but always find myself at LMS/ALMS/LMES/ISRS/call it what you will and the Peugeots/Audis are just an awesome spectacle.

This year I stood down at Stowe watching the works 908 whistle down the Hangar Straight accelerating hard into the corner before jumping on the brakes apparently as it turned into the corner and then immediately back on the power. They are absolutely remarkable machines. I'm happy as a pig in st watching T70s battle Lola T212s in WSM, DBR1s fighting Listers in 50s sportscars and XJR9s up against Nissan R90CKs in Group C, but for all-out spectacle, the modern prototypes are just as good. I honestly believe that and they're not at all bad to look at either. The fins aren't perfect, but we're not going to change that and to watch these cars bend physics from the trackside will remain a phenomenal experience.

[Nick M]

chevronb37 said:

Does anybody else not find the current breed of LMP1 cars to be tremendously exciting to watch? For whatever reason, I haven't been to LM24 in 10 years, but always find myself at LMS/ALMS/LMES/ISRS/call it what you will and the Peugeots/Audis are just an awesome spectacle.

This year I stood down at Stowe watching the works 908 whistle down the Hangar Straight accelerating hard into the corner before jumping on the brakes apparently as it turned into the corner and then immediately back on the power.

There is a subtlety to them which is simply not found with single seaters, where the movement of wheels and the actions of the driver are more visible.

The speed they carry into and through corners is the bit I find most impressive, particularly when you see the works Pugs and Audis relative to the other cars in the class.

[tuffer]

Another Ugly Fin:

[chevronb37]

Nick M said:

chevronb37 said:

Does anybody else not find the current breed of LMP1 cars to be tremendously exciting to watch? For whatever reason, I haven't been to LM24 in 10 years, but always find myself at LMS/ALMS/LMES/ISRS/call it what you will and the Peugeots/Audis are just an awesome spectacle.

This year I stood down at Stowe watching the works 908 whistle down the Hangar Straight accelerating hard into the corner before jumping on the brakes apparently as it turned into the corner and then immediately back on the power.

There is a subtlety to them which is simply not found with single seaters, where the movement of wheels and the actions of the driver are more visible.

The speed they carry into and through corners is the bit I find most impressive, particularly when you see the works Pugs and Audis relative to the other cars in the class.

It is remarkable. People will always attribute the Audi and Peugeot speed to mere torque, but the cars are so stable and so impressive under braking and on the power. I will always support AML, as a long-term admirer of theirs and that marvellous V12 noise, but there's no getting away from the fact that the big works cars are far more highly developed and an ignorant spectator like me can visibly see that from behind the catch fencing. The braking capability and the speed they can carry through fast corners is unreal.

[Parsnip]

chevronb37 said:

Nick M said:

chevronb37 said:

Does anybody else not find the current breed of LMP1 cars to be tremendously exciting to watch? For whatever reason, I haven't been to LM24 in 10 years, but always find myself at LMS/ALMS/LMES/ISRS/call it what you will and the Peugeots/Audis are just an awesome spectacle.

This year I stood down at Stowe watching the works 908 whistle down the Hangar Straight accelerating hard into the corner before jumping on the brakes apparently as it turned into the corner and then immediately back on the power.

There is a subtlety to them which is simply not found with single seaters, where the movement of wheels and the actions of the driver are more visible.

The speed they carry into and through corners is the bit I find most impressive, particularly when you see the works Pugs and Audis relative to the other cars in the class.

It is remarkable. People will always attribute the Audi and Peugeot speed to mere torque, but the cars are so stable and so impressive under braking and on the power. I will always support AML, as a long-term admirer of theirs and that marvellous V12 noise, but there's no getting away from the fact that the big works cars are far more highly developed and an ignorant spectator like me can visibly see that from behind the catch fencing. The braking capability and the speed they can carry through fast corners is unreal.

And another.

All you need to do is stand at the Dunlop curves at night and watch the Pugs and Audis (more noticeable with the Audis "X-Wing" lights) fly through there - completely mind bending how much speed they carry.

I am dead against the fins - if Nascar with their barn door engineering can get around it with hidden flaps, then why cant the ACO? In its fully developed state, I don't think it will look as bad as it does now on the closed cars, on the open cars (like the Aston mock up) I think they will always look really out of place.