The Land and Water Speed Records Thread

[Life Saab Itch]

You say it like it's only one person...

[yoof full chav]

Life Saab Itch said:

You say it like it's only one person...

Okay fair point, but as you can only have one driver at a time, if things go tits up, you wouldnt get anyone jumping to get into it once it's been rebuilt

[Life Saab Itch]

yoof full chav said:

Life Saab Itch said:

You say it like it's only one person...

Okay fair point, but as you can only have one driver at a time, if things go tits up, you wouldnt get anyone jumping to get into it once it's been rebuilt

Offshore power boats have two drivers. One for steering, the other for throttles. Technically you could have two for a WSR attempt.

[yoof full chav]

Life Saab Itch said:

yoof full chav said:

Life Saab Itch said:

You say it like it's only one person...

Okay fair point, but as you can only have one driver at a time, if things go tits up, you wouldnt get anyone jumping to get into it once it's been rebuilt

Offshore power boats have two drivers. One for steering, the other for throttles. Technically you could have two for a WSR attempt.

Hmmmm, not sure on that one. I know that aussie, ken warby?? He just had himself, and i think donald campbell and others who have tried to set water speed records have usually done so solo. TBH i think others have tried since warby set his record, and died trying to better it, so if you are driving this thing, you better make sure that whoever screws it together does a first rate job.

[GrahamR15]

Seeing this subject being discussed reminds me of the film about Donald Campbell staring Anthony Hopkins made by the BBC I think it was called across the water or similar ? I was only young ?would love to find a copy .
Graham


Edited to say Ive only found it on ebay "across the lake"! know what i'll be watching this week then

Edited by GrahamR15 on Sunday 23 January 23:26

[dr_gn]

GrahamR15 said:

Seeing this subject being discussed reminds me of the film about Donald Campbell staring Anthony Hopkins made by the BBC I think it was called across the water or similar ? I was only young ?would love to find a copy .
Graham


Edited to say Ive only found it on ebay "across the lake"! know what i'll be watching this week then

Edited by GrahamR15 on Sunday 23 January 23:26

Yes, "Across the Lake" I found my VHS copy last year and watched it again - it's a really good film.

[Eric Mc]

When was it shown - 1990?

I remember it well and thought it was really good at the time.

[dr_gn]

Life Saab Itch said:

yoof full chav said:

DJC said:

Life Saab Itch said:

DJC said:

There was a reason I said initially that my emphasis was more on the aeros.

The CFD for the hull design isnt a major issue really, the principles are well understood and relatively easy to apply. I can think of 3 designs off the top of my head which would satisfy the hydro side of things, esp combined with a decent propulsion side. Its all on the aeros and control system side.

To follow that, without significant "gifts" or grants, the control systems side would be prohibitively expensive.

With the systems (if I am following the discussion in the right direfction) that you are talking about, you are effectively designing a small aircraft that happens to plane on water.

The speeds we are talking about, we are probably somewhat above Cessna technology levels.

Yes it might help if you have experience in flight control computers, software and systems...

Might help??? I should think it would be a serious advantage if you did have relevant experience

You still have to bolt the control systems to an impressive piece of structural engineering...

If you started a project now you'd be many, many years before you'd ready. IIRC the Quicksilver project :

http://www.quicksilver-wsr.com/

has been going for about 10 years, and is still nowhere near finished, and they've - apparently - had some very experienced world record experienced people working on it.

I doubt whether there's enough good will, knowledge and cash to support two simultaneous British WSR attempts (unless you happen to be incredibly rich and/or well connected).

And if you want to see how these projects seem to proceed, have a read through this thread, it's a bit of an eye-opener:

http://www.bluebirdproject.com/message/viewtopic.p...

[Life Saab Itch]

yoof full chav said:

Life Saab Itch said:

yoof full chav said:

Life Saab Itch said:

You say it like it's only one person...

Okay fair point, but as you can only have one driver at a time, if things go tits up, you wouldnt get anyone jumping to get into it once it's been rebuilt

Offshore power boats have two drivers. One for steering, the other for throttles. Technically you could have two for a WSR attempt.

Hmmmm, not sure on that one. I know that aussie, ken warby?? He just had himself, and i think donald campbell and others who have tried to set water speed records have usually done so solo. TBH i think others have tried since warby set his record, and died trying to better it, so if you are driving this thing, you better make sure that whoever screws it together does a first rate job.

The materials technology is proven though. If you think about driver safety cells from 1978, think about something with state of the art technology for that period, something comparable (if not further advanced) with the build techniques used on the WSR vessels. In F1, they were still using hand formed ally monocoques. These were not great in absorbing impacts whilst keeping the driver intact. In some cases, they were not great at holding the car together due to fatigue etc. Fast forward to the modern day, Carbon safety cells have made the drivers safer than ever before. Deaths are thankfully (touch wood) relegated to the history books and injuries to the drivers whilst in the cars are very rare.

If those techniques were carried over to a WSR craft it would be a hell of a lot safer than when a serious attempt was last tried.

Going further than just the safety cell, fixings and the like are of a better quality these days. CAD and 3D modelling mean that you can check every part for interferences rather than making a bit to a drawing, then having to modify it when you find out that you need that bit more space to allow for x or y to fit in because you had to move z because A got replaced by B which was 130% of the size etc.

Going back to your point (I fear I may have rambled a little from the original path) getting the right people to nail the thing together is far easier than getting the parts made to the standard that you would want.

[dr_gn]

Life Saab Itch said:

yoof full chav said:

Life Saab Itch said:

yoof full chav said:

Life Saab Itch said:

You say it like it's only one person...

Okay fair point, but as you can only have one driver at a time, if things go tits up, you wouldnt get anyone jumping to get into it once it's been rebuilt

Offshore power boats have two drivers. One for steering, the other for throttles. Technically you could have two for a WSR attempt.

Hmmmm, not sure on that one. I know that aussie, ken warby?? He just had himself, and i think donald campbell and others who have tried to set water speed records have usually done so solo. TBH i think others have tried since warby set his record, and died trying to better it, so if you are driving this thing, you better make sure that whoever screws it together does a first rate job.

getting the right people to nail the thing together is far easier than getting the parts made to the standard that you would want.

Must admit, I think that's the wrong way around. Getting the parts made to the right standard is easy (so long as you have the cash *and* the right people designing the thing in the first place, which is not so easy).

[yoof full chav]

Okay, LSI, you have a fair point, but i still think an safety cell is not going to do much good if you hit the water at in excess of 350mph(which is what you are talking about). Dont get me wrong, technology is advancing all the time, and it is more than likely that 400mph on water is obtainable, but i still maintain that whoever is driving the boat, is a sacraficial lamb. However, would love to see you prove me wrong, and would be the first to stand up and eat my words and acknowledge your greatness.

[dr_gn]

A few more insights into the challenges of developing a WSR contender here:

http://machinedesign.com/article/an-update-on-nige...

Read the 'respones' too...

[Life Saab Itch]

yoof full chav said:

Okay, LSI, you have a fair point, but i still think an safety cell is not going to do much good if you hit the water at in excess of 350mph(which is what you are talking about). Dont get me wrong, technology is advancing all the time, and it is more than likely that 400mph on water is obtainable, but i still maintain that whoever is driving the boat, is a sacraficial lamb. However, would love to see you prove me wrong, and would be the first to stand up and eat my words and acknowledge your greatness.

I very much doubt that a financial backer to any project would let me anywhere near the controls.

My point was how far technology has come since the sixties/seventies of "beer can" safety cells as opposed to today.

[LY99]

Not sure anyones mensioned this yet but The Fast Set by Charles Jennings is a brilliant book focusing on Henry Segrave, Malcolm Campbell and John Cobb.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Fast-Set-Charles-Jennings/dp/product-description/0349115966/ref=dp_proddesc_0?ie=UTF8&n=266239&s=books&qid=1295881999&sr=8-1


Does anyone know of any books about Art Arfons and the LSR orund that era??

[yoof full chav]

Life Saab Itch said:

yoof full chav said:

Okay, LSI, you have a fair point, but i still think an safety cell is not going to do much good if you hit the water at in excess of 350mph(which is what you are talking about). Dont get me wrong, technology is advancing all the time, and it is more than likely that 400mph on water is obtainable, but i still maintain that whoever is driving the boat, is a sacraficial lamb. However, would love to see you prove me wrong, and would be the first to stand up and eat my words and acknowledge your greatness.

I very much doubt that a financial backer to any project would let me anywhere near the controls.

My point was how far technology has come since the sixties/seventies of "beer can" safety cells as opposed to today.

Indeed. IIRC the unlimited hydroplanes use safety cells, with f-16 canopies and air supply systems just in case, maybe thats something to think about just in case the idiot pilot has an accident

[chevronb37]

LY99 said:

Not sure anyones mensioned this yet but The Fast Set by Charles Jennings is a brilliant book focusing on Henry Segrave, Malcolm Campbell and John Cobb.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Fast-Set-Charles-Jennings/dp/product-description/0349115966/ref=dp_proddesc_0?ie=UTF8&n=266239&s=books&qid=1295881999&sr=8-1


Does anyone know of any books about Art Arfons and the LSR orund that era??

My dad has just loaned me The Fast Set. I look forward to settling down with it shortly. I've also had word from my mum that she has turned up a load of my old Bluebird stuff including the rather charming photo Jean Wales gave me so I'll post up whatever might be of general interest.

[Life Saab Itch]

dr_gn said:

Life Saab Itch said:

yoof full chav said:

Life Saab Itch said:

yoof full chav said:

Life Saab Itch said:

You say it like it's only one person...

Okay fair point, but as you can only have one driver at a time, if things go tits up, you wouldnt get anyone jumping to get into it once it's been rebuilt

Offshore power boats have two drivers. One for steering, the other for throttles. Technically you could have two for a WSR attempt.

Hmmmm, not sure on that one. I know that aussie, ken warby?? He just had himself, and i think donald campbell and others who have tried to set water speed records have usually done so solo. TBH i think others have tried since warby set his record, and died trying to better it, so if you are driving this thing, you better make sure that whoever screws it together does a first rate job.

getting the right people to nail the thing together is far easier than getting the parts made to the standard that you would want.

Must admit, I think that's the wrong way around. Getting the parts made to the right standard is easy (so long as you have the cash *and* the right people designing the thing in the first place, which is not so easy).

I guess that's down to whether you know/work in engineering circles or mechanical circles.

I know a few F1/aircraft mechanics/fabricators who I would class as capable, whereas I can only think of one engineer who I would say would have a chance at the structure and no-one with the relevant aero experience.

[chevronb37]

I hope this is of interest. Jean and Donald playing with the 1928 Bluebird - I suspect at Povey Cross.

[Life Saab Itch]

chevronb37 said:

I hope this is of interest. Jean and Donald playing with the 1928 Bluebird - I suspect at Povey Cross.

"Donald's Garage"

Brilliant.

[chevronb37]

Life Saab Itch said:

chevronb37 said:

I hope this is of interest. Jean and Donald playing with the 1928 Bluebird - I suspect at Povey Cross.

"Donald's Garage"

Brilliant.

It's better than the garage I have now. And he can only be 9!