Potholes

[Digga]

dinkel said:

Also, these vehicles are so freaking wide it's uneasy to pass!

Saw one on the A51 in Staffs this morning:

• 4x4 tractor - check
• Towing a full (you could tell by tyres and vehicle movment) slurry tanker - check
• 30-40mph - check
• Young driver - check
• Driver busy looking at TikTok - check

[dinkel]

F@k meeeej...

And health and safety should be an issue?

Effing ban these monsters.

[stogbandard]

I remember when I was a student in Leeds seeing a stretch of Woodhouse Lane being resurfaced with smooth stone mastic asphalt in place of old hot rolled asphalt.

It was only a matter of months for the much finer stones to be scrubbed out of the road by turning vehicles creating rutting and potholes.

Since then, most authorities have been using this material to resurface roads instead of hot rolled asphalt which is more resilient to wear and defects. There’s still sections of the M1 that have hot rolled asphalt that have been there for at least 20 or more years. Other sections have stone mastic asphalt that last less than 10 years.

The lesson here is not to use cheap materials. It’s a false economy.

[PaulD86]

stogbandard said:

I remember when I was a student in Leeds seeing a stretch of Woodhouse Lane being resurfaced with smooth stone mastic asphalt in place of old hot rolled asphalt.

It was only a matter of months for the much finer stones to be scrubbed out of the road by turning vehicles creating rutting and potholes.

Since then, most authorities have been using this material to resurface roads instead of hot rolled asphalt which is more resilient to wear and defects. There’s still sections of the M1 that have hot rolled asphalt that have been there for at least 20 or more years. Other sections have stone mastic asphalt that last less than 10 years.

The lesson here is not to use cheap materials. It’s a false economy.

Both SMA and HRA have their pros and cons, and in fact the price difference between them can be negligible. As you've observed, SMA can be prone to failure where there is a lot of turning movement/screwing wheels, however it can perform very well on high-speed roads. I have no knowledge of the M1 so can't speculate why SMA failed so quickly on it, however I know of heavily trafficked sections of high-speed road with SMA surfaces in good condition north of 30 years after surfacing.

I think it is important to note that there are many specifications of both SMA and HRA and technology in both has changed very significantly in the past 30 years. You often hear people asking why we can't have nice smooth roads like those found in, say, France of Germany. Well, many of these are SMA roads and, in the mid to late nineties the same material was put down at sites across the UK. The results were total failure in as few as 5 years in some locations. When it comes to surface material, one size does not fit all, and climate factors can play a huge role in how well a surface lasts. Today we have better SMA options and on some roads they are a good choice, but not all. But I can certainly show you SMA roads which have performed extremely well.

In short, you are correct that, generally speaking, SMA isn't the best choice for areas where there is lots of turning movement, however, to suggest that it is a cheap alternative to HRA is not correct and oversimplifies surfacing material choice.

[robinessex]

PaulD86 said:

I think it is important to note that there are many specifications of both SMA and HRA and technology in both has changed very significantly in the past 30 years. You often hear people asking why we can't have nice smooth roads like those found in, say, France of Germany. Well, many of these are SMA roads and, in the mid to late nineties the same material was put down at sites across the UK. The results were total failure in as few as 5 years in some locations.

Why? I find it hard to believe that the climate is any different in northern France/Germany than in the UK. Graduating from a bushbike to a motorcycle and then a car in the 1960's. I never, ever worried or met a pothole. Unless my memory is failing, potholes started to appear about 10-12 years ago, and at the same time, the funds to keep the roads in good condition were starting to be decimated. The root cause is obvious to a blind man, the roads weren't being maintained and have been left to fall to bits. I've actually spoken to road repair gangs personally, and they readily tell me what they are doing patching isn't a solution, it's stop gas rubbish.

[Fastpedeller]

robinessex said:

PaulD86 said:

I think it is important to note that there are many specifications of both SMA and HRA and technology in both has changed very significantly in the past 30 years. You often hear people asking why we can't have nice smooth roads like those found in, say, France of Germany. Well, many of these are SMA roads and, in the mid to late nineties the same material was put down at sites across the UK. The results were total failure in as few as 5 years in some locations.

Why? I find it hard to believe that the climate is any different in northern France/Germany than in the UK. Graduating from a bushbike to a motorcycle and then a car in the 1960's. I never, ever worried or met a pothole. Unless my memory is failing, potholes started to appear about 10-12 years ago, and at the same time, the funds to keep the roads in good condition were starting to be decimated. The root cause is obvious to a blind man, the roads weren't being maintained and have been left to fall to bits. I've actually spoken to road repair gangs personally, and they readily tell me what they are doing patching isn't a solution, it's stop gas rubbish.

Will this be the next PO? Victims denied their rightful payout after being injured in potholes 'fixed' by Councils who knew better.?
p.s. This is a serious comment and not intended to compare directly to the PO SPM's and their famil;ies who have suffered terribly and can never be fully recompensed.

[Digga]

Fastpedeller said:

robinessex said:

PaulD86 said:

I think it is important to note that there are many specifications of both SMA and HRA and technology in both has changed very significantly in the past 30 years. You often hear people asking why we can't have nice smooth roads like those found in, say, France of Germany. Well, many of these are SMA roads and, in the mid to late nineties the same material was put down at sites across the UK. The results were total failure in as few as 5 years in some locations.

Why? I find it hard to believe that the climate is any different in northern France/Germany than in the UK. Graduating from a bushbike to a motorcycle and then a car in the 1960's. I never, ever worried or met a pothole. Unless my memory is failing, potholes started to appear about 10-12 years ago, and at the same time, the funds to keep the roads in good condition were starting to be decimated. The root cause is obvious to a blind man, the roads weren't being maintained and have been left to fall to bits. I've actually spoken to road repair gangs personally, and they readily tell me what they are doing patching isn't a solution, it's stop gas rubbish.

Will this be the next PO? Victims denied their rightful payout after being injured in potholes 'fixed' by Councils who knew better.?
p.s. This is a serious comment and not intended to compare directly to the PO SPM's and their famil;ies who have suffered terribly and can never be fully recompensed.

It is, without doubt, a national scandal and one that's affecting more individuals and businesses than the Horizon debacle.

[PaulD86]

robinessex said:

PaulD86 said:

I think it is important to note that there are many specifications of both SMA and HRA and technology in both has changed very significantly in the past 30 years. You often hear people asking why we can't have nice smooth roads like those found in, say, France of Germany. Well, many of these are SMA roads and, in the mid to late nineties the same material was put down at sites across the UK. The results were total failure in as few as 5 years in some locations.

Why? I find it hard to believe that the climate is any different in northern France/Germany than in the UK. Graduating from a bushbike to a motorcycle and then a car in the 1960's. I never, ever worried or met a pothole. Unless my memory is failing, potholes started to appear about 10-12 years ago, and at the same time, the funds to keep the roads in good condition were starting to be decimated. The root cause is obvious to a blind man, the roads weren't being maintained and have been left to fall to bits. I've actually spoken to road repair gangs personally, and they readily tell me what they are doing patching isn't a solution, it's stop gas rubbish.

Do you think forums should be places where information is given, or echo chambers for those of a similar view? Genuine question.

Whether you believe the climate to be different isn't relevant. I have read a number of your posts on this, and similar topics and you seem to have all the answers on the topic. If you don't believe what I have said, it's not skin off my nose. However, even a basic geography knowledge should be enough to know the climates are not the same. The climate and optimum material choices for surfacing aren't even the same at the north and south of the UK. You no doubt won't believe this either.

However, you are correct that there is (to some extent) a correlation with funding. Though it is more complex than this.

Speak to squads and they will tell you exactly what you want to hear. The two main reasons are that in many there is an inherent distrust of anything a manager or person in an office may ask them to do (they always know better even though I suspect most couldn't even tell you basic information like their budget) and the second is that most members of the public who come to speak to them are a pain in the neck and agreeing with their views is the easiest way to deal with them without grief. To be clear, I'm not levelling that accusation at you, but I have observed it first hand on sites.

[Digga]

PaulD86 said:

The climate and optimum material choices for surfacing aren't even the same at the north and south of the UK.

Interesting fact, altough the skeptic in me thinks there's also a case that the North just gets the st end of the deal, like it did with Crossrail vs. HS2 Northern.

[PaulD86]

Digga said:

PaulD86 said:

The climate and optimum material choices for surfacing aren't even the same at the north and south of the UK.

Interesting fact, altough the skeptic in me thinks there's also a case that the North just gets the st end of the deal, like it did with Crossrail vs. HS2 Northern.

The thing that kills roads is water. Simply speaking. But water is the enemy - same with buildings and cars. In the north of the UK, winter conditions mean that road surface temperatures tend to go above and then dip bellow zero frequently. This is pretty hard on roads. Whilst the same can occur in, say, Cornwall, it does not happen with anything like the regularity. A number of Scottish roads authorities have bought ex south of England gritters which have done fewer miles in 4 years than they then do in 4 weeks in Scotland. So yes, climate variation is very real.

[Digga]

There are parallels in Europe though. Anyone who's driven A and B roads from Germany into Belgium through the Eiffel mountains will know the score. Vehicles, traffic and climate are identical, but the road surfaces are not.

[Swervin_Mervin]

PaulD86 said:

Digga said:

PaulD86 said:

The climate and optimum material choices for surfacing aren't even the same at the north and south of the UK.

Interesting fact, altough the skeptic in me thinks there's also a case that the North just gets the st end of the deal, like it did with Crossrail vs. HS2 Northern.

The thing that kills roads is water. Simply speaking. But water is the enemy - same with buildings and cars. In the north of the UK, winter conditions mean that road surface temperatures tend to go above and then dip bellow zero frequently. This is pretty hard on roads. Whilst the same can occur in, say, Cornwall, it does not happen with anything like the regularity. A number of Scottish roads authorities have bought ex south of England gritters which have done fewer miles in 4 years than they then do in 4 weeks in Scotland. So yes, climate variation is very real.

See also time of year that works are undertaken. Had a job a couple of years ago creating a new access off a roundabout and, whilst most of the works were able to be undertaken by the contractor as soon as the legal agreements were signed, they had to wait to resurface the roundabout until June at the earliest I believe. Specific LHA requirement as the failure rate of surfaces laid in the colder months was much higher.

Which is ironic when you then have LHA's rushing to spend their remaining budget in Feb and March every year on road repairs...

[Digga]

Yes, hence the numerous stories we all know and hear of where the same pothole(s) are having to be 'fixed' multiple times.

[Wacky Racer]

There's 4000 holes in Blackburn, Lancashire apparently.

[Forester1965]

Wacky Racer said:

There's 4000 holes in Blackburn, Lancashire apparently.

I always thought it was just one big one.

[swisstoni]

Wacky Racer said:

There's 4000 holes in Blackburn, Lancashire apparently.

So, armed with that info, how many holes does it take to fill The Albert Hall?

[Digga]

swisstoni said:

Wacky Racer said:

There's 4000 holes in Blackburn, Lancashire apparently.

So, armed with that info, how many holes does it take to fill The Albert Hall?

<Something about "an area the size of Wales" and double decker busses.>

[robinessex]

Here's an 'interesting' video. A critical patient is being transported to the hospital with a Police Escort in Holland. Look at the road surfaces. Couldn't happen in the UK. They'd be shaken to pieces before they arrived.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1b4cH7QPLc

[MightyBadger]

Im going to go out and highlight the ones round here with spraypaint so people can avoid them and not damage their vehicles.

[dinkel]

robinessex said:

Here's an 'interesting' video. A critical patient is being transported to the hospital with a Police Escort in Holland. Look at the road surfaces. Couldn't happen in the UK. They'd be shaken to pieces before they arrived.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1b4cH7QPLc

I'm from NL and it's looking noce, but certainly not everywhere you'll go