Peugeot 205 Saloon Libre - RWD Space-Frame Silhouette Racer
Discussion
dibbers006 said:
n3il123 said:
Is it finished yet?
Yeah, cummon Cam, it's nearly the weekend and I need some more build porn!
(I also told work I was leaving early next year.. so having to save & plan for that too!)
Word up homies. It's been a while and I have a list of excuses as long as I wish my penis was, but I have been back in the workshop this weekend building the spray booth.
So far I have imprisoned the 205..
Hopefully I'll get the roof on tomorrow.
It's all designed to be put up & taken down a few times, as I'll only need it to prep the shell for moulding then it will need to come down for a few months while I get the last bits of the chassis sorted out, powder coated etc.
So far I have imprisoned the 205..
Hopefully I'll get the roof on tomorrow.
It's all designed to be put up & taken down a few times, as I'll only need it to prep the shell for moulding then it will need to come down for a few months while I get the last bits of the chassis sorted out, powder coated etc.
gambisk said:
I originally read this thread nearly a year ago when you were just starting out on the welds. All I can say is that I am completely amazed at the quality of this car. It is a credit to your engineering and building skill, I hope that you go on to have a ton of success racing it and a great laugh in the process. Keep up the great work I'll be watching with great interest from here on.
Thanks very much! Racing success will depend on how well I can pedal it! Not very much has happened in the past few weeks as I've been preparing to leave my job. I think it should start getting back to full speed in February / March when I've got things a bit more settled!
Seanlogie said:
Just found this thread tonight ,building a race car is about the detail and the attention to detail . I've come across a few of these types of projects and this one is by far the most interesting and entertaining and informative by a country mile . My only criticism is that the thread has come to an end for now ..... Haste ye back
Thanks! Unfortunately I have no updates for you, and it's unlikely I will be able to get back to it until mid-March / early April! I have 7 working days left at my job and am focusing 100,000,000% of my spare time on getting my business going, so that I can hit the ground running! Once I've got the car moved over to my new unit, got the workshop set up, and got a bit of stability, I'll be hitting the project again hard.
For anyone who is interested, I got my website up and running last night!
http://www.saloonlibre.co.uk/
Rest assured I will not be abandoning the build!
jiggawhat2k said:
your facebook and twitter links on the site go to something not related to you!
Good luck with the new venture, excited to see the finished pug build.
Thanks for the feedback! Good luck with the new venture, excited to see the finished pug build.
Nice spot.. It's just the ones at the bottom of each page, right? The buttons on the contact page work ok?
Afternoon chaps,
It's been a while since I could work on the 205, so I've had a fair amount of thinking / planning time (always dangerous) and am considering taking the project in a new direction.
My original plan was to go with a 2.0 Duratec turbo at around 350bhp and F/R configuration. Recently I can't stop thinking about ditching IC altogether and re-working the car to be fully electric-powered 4WD. I know that might be a shocking prospect (terrible pun, I'm sorry) but the car is about pushing boundaries and I don't really see IC as much of a challenge or relevance to the build any more!
The benefits would be huge from my perspective as a chassis & suspension designer, as I've been in a constant struggle to package everything for good weight distribution. More than that, though, the challenge of exploring EV tech and pushing things in a direction of considerable relevance to today's rapid progression from IC to EV would be very exciting!
Also, what could be better than an 80's matchbox blasting up the hills / round a track in almost total silence?
It'll be a few more months until things are stable enough to work on the car again, which gives me plenty of time to plan things out!
So.. thoughts?
It's been a while since I could work on the 205, so I've had a fair amount of thinking / planning time (always dangerous) and am considering taking the project in a new direction.
My original plan was to go with a 2.0 Duratec turbo at around 350bhp and F/R configuration. Recently I can't stop thinking about ditching IC altogether and re-working the car to be fully electric-powered 4WD. I know that might be a shocking prospect (terrible pun, I'm sorry) but the car is about pushing boundaries and I don't really see IC as much of a challenge or relevance to the build any more!
The benefits would be huge from my perspective as a chassis & suspension designer, as I've been in a constant struggle to package everything for good weight distribution. More than that, though, the challenge of exploring EV tech and pushing things in a direction of considerable relevance to today's rapid progression from IC to EV would be very exciting!
Also, what could be better than an 80's matchbox blasting up the hills / round a track in almost total silence?
It'll be a few more months until things are stable enough to work on the car again, which gives me plenty of time to plan things out!
So.. thoughts?
Yoof said:
I don't think the EV route solves your packaging issue. It arguably just gives you very different problems, mainly a heavy battery and large amount of power electronics.
My main concern would be cost- the EV component market is becoming more competitive, but still hardware is chuffin expensive, increasingly so if you require a greater level of performance/integration than currently available off the shelf.
That aside, anything fast and different is always fun- so why the hell not! YASA's offering:
http://www.yasamotors.com/application-example-driv...
Cheers
Pete
Thanks for the flurry of replies & enthusiasm! My main concern would be cost- the EV component market is becoming more competitive, but still hardware is chuffin expensive, increasingly so if you require a greater level of performance/integration than currently available off the shelf.
That aside, anything fast and different is always fun- so why the hell not! YASA's offering:
http://www.yasamotors.com/application-example-driv...
Cheers
Pete
Cost is definitely an issue, so I'll have to do a proper cost analysis of the installation, but my engine & transmission package is something like £15k deep at present and will probably be getting on for £25k all-in, so it's not out of the realms of possibility that I can get a decent motor & battery package for around that money.
YASA motors look brilliant! I've been perving on them for a few weeks, now. I've just contacted them with details of the build & my requirements, so that should be a starting point to gauge the cost of an EV build.
davepoth said:
CamMoreRon said:
Also, what could be better than an 80's matchbox blasting up the hills / round a track in almost total silence?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDT2tu03OM8Powering the electric motors with a home made jet engine rather than a battery? Just putting it out there...
That would be insane.. a bit like the Manic Beattie, except no engine!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11687nVdzdk
Max_Torque said:
If you're going electric you need to do some homework!
you have 4 main issues to sort out:
1) Traction motor - as you won't be developing your own, broadly your options fall into two categories:
a) Off the shelf motor from the likes of Zytek, Yasa, MESL etc. Hope you have deep pockets!
b) Take existing motor from production EV. You could source something second hand, from a Tesla, etc. By using a separate refrigerant loop, you could cool the proddy motors below zero and get signifianctly more power and torque. Limiting factor would be winding flashover and demag.
For your light weight car, you don't need masses of power, but it reality, you car won't be as fast as it would be with an ICE as most EV's are well under 200kW (LEAF is 80kW, i3 is 125kW etc)
Mr Torque, thank you for your input! you have 4 main issues to sort out:
1) Traction motor - as you won't be developing your own, broadly your options fall into two categories:
a) Off the shelf motor from the likes of Zytek, Yasa, MESL etc. Hope you have deep pockets!
b) Take existing motor from production EV. You could source something second hand, from a Tesla, etc. By using a separate refrigerant loop, you could cool the proddy motors below zero and get signifianctly more power and torque. Limiting factor would be winding flashover and demag.
For your light weight car, you don't need masses of power, but it reality, you car won't be as fast as it would be with an ICE as most EV's are well under 200kW (LEAF is 80kW, i3 is 125kW etc)
I fired off a quick email to YASA yesterday, requesting general prices for their units, and the result is about £9k per motor and £3.5k per controller / inverter - so about £25k for a 2-motor & controller installation.
It would be sexy as hell, of course, but I think those prices would be prohibitively expensive!
Plenty of other options to explore, of course! The drive unit from a Tesla could well be cheaper, but I assume would require controllers etc which will add expense - particularly if integration with the DU is difficult.
Max_Torque said:
2) Battery - TBH, there's only really on sensible option here, and that is to us an existing EV battery, or at least the cells/sub packs from one. Leaf batteries or Tesla batteries are available s/h - If you can re-jig the packs to increase the dc link voltage, with suitable power silicon (which normally falls into two flavours, 600v and 1200v) you could get a much higher motor output than std.
Batteries are a tough one.. the rate of progress is so staggering that I think by the time I finish the build, whatever I went for would be outdated. I reckon you're right on using an existing EV battery pack. TBH I currently know close to SFA on EV tech, so would appreciate any guidance you could give!
I'd thought about asking you to email, but maybe this discussion would be interesting for people reading through? If you want to discuss in private then feel free to email - cam@saloonlibre.co.uk
Max_Torque said:
3) Power electronics - Possibly the hardest part. You probably can't use any production electronics as the integration task would be onerous. (you could use proddy power stages with custom controller). You might end up with a commercial inverter, from the likes of Sevcon etc Reasonably good, but pricey. If you can find some commercial grade 1200V power stages (Semikron Skai2 etc), then it's not impossible to roll your own controller
Making my own controller would be seriously boner-inducing! I think that's the route I would take. Max_Torque said:
4) Transmission - Probably the easiest to solve. Either have none (which is not great for performance) or use a basic 4 speed dog box from quaife etc
I suppose it depends on what max speed I need, as to whether a transmission is required? My Drenth gearing tops out at 150mph, but tbh that's probably a bit fast for any UK hillclimb I'll attend, and most UK tracks too!Max_Torque said:
(if you built a range extender engine / genny, you could save significant costs on your battery, but your system complexity/costs would go through the roof (two sets of inverters, motors, possibly a DC-DC convertor, and a suitable system controller to integrate the whole thing, not to mention cooling, fuel systems etc etc)
Regen would be lovely, but probably a thing to integrate later. With the IC installation I was going down the route of starting simple and adding complexity as development packs; I think that ethos would carry over to electric propulsion. Thanks again for the info! I have to admit this is completely new to me, so I'm likely to need a lot more guidance!
Sf_Manta said:
Funny you should mention EV requirements...
I deal with this kinda thing daily at work Cam, so parts and such, cabling for HV applications is what Frost EV do.
http://www.frostevsystems.co.uk/
Though you'll probably want parts so. http://www.frostevparts.co.uk/
Cables and such we can knock up within a few weeks, so long as you've got Kostal / Tyco connectors.
Thanks Ian, I'll bear that in mind for when this idea develops further! I deal with this kinda thing daily at work Cam, so parts and such, cabling for HV applications is what Frost EV do.
http://www.frostevsystems.co.uk/
Though you'll probably want parts so. http://www.frostevparts.co.uk/
Cables and such we can knock up within a few weeks, so long as you've got Kostal / Tyco connectors.
As per my comments to MT, feel free to drop me an email or add whatever you like to the discussion here! As I said, this is a completely new thing to me, so any information will be very useful!
I'm all about throwing myself in at the deep end!
n3il123 said:
CamMoreRon said:
Sorry guys, no updates as yet! Things have been flat out with the new business so I haven't even had the time to get the car out of storage and in to the new workshop!
With any luck I'll be back at it early 2016.
PS - You'll be happy to hear I've decided to keep it as a 2.0 turbo.
With any luck I'll be back at it early 2016.
PS - You'll be happy to hear I've decided to keep it as a 2.0 turbo.
Thank f
k for that!A quick update:
Things have been all over the place since I set up 'shop, but are thankfully set to stabilise and I'll be looking to get the car moved up to the new place in November / December
. The project will never ever ever be abandoned, so sit tight and I'll get some proper updates coming in the new year!
Morning all.
I have some mixed news, and this first part may upset a few people.. Over the past few months I've been wondering when the next opportunity to work on this car is going to be, and whether it makes sense to keep such a thing (and the vast hoard of parts) locked up in a shed, waiting for the day I eventually have the time and cash to finish it off. To be really blunt about it, it doesn't make sense.
The past year has been completely insane - I won't go in to all the details, but I have had zero time / money and massive stress because I tried to set up a business with about 50p to my name. It was probably a terrible idea tbh.. but it was a decision I made with my heart, not my head. I got by for a bit, but things got pretty crazy towards the end of the year so I went back to work, and so found myself looking at the 205 and thinking: "Hmm.. that's the kind of money people use for getting a business off the ground. Sensible people, who realise that things take time and time costs money. Do I want to work a f***ing desk job to pay off my unit, or do I want to do some actual work in it - the work I actually like doing?".
The answer is: Yes I do. So unfortunately, the car has to go.
But hang on.. Did I mention doing actual work in the unit? Well.. as much as all of that ^^^ probably sucked copious amounts of balls for you all to read, YOU DRY THOSE GODDAMN TEARS. Because what a treat I have for you:
Yes that is another 205 1.6 Auto!
Yes that is a Formula Renault engine & transaxle!
Yes it is going in the back!
Yes there will be clamshells!
Yes we are completely insane!
But most importantly of all:
Yes there will be a project thread! Complete with the same level of pics & details this one had.
The real work will start in a few weeks - 3rd June, to be precise, as that's when I leave aforementioned crummy desk job. As soon as my angle-grinder touches that bodyshell there will be a project thread in this forum, so keep yer peepers peeled.
Anyway.. sorry to be the bearer of sh***y news, but hopefully this sugar-coats it a little.
I have some mixed news, and this first part may upset a few people.. Over the past few months I've been wondering when the next opportunity to work on this car is going to be, and whether it makes sense to keep such a thing (and the vast hoard of parts) locked up in a shed, waiting for the day I eventually have the time and cash to finish it off. To be really blunt about it, it doesn't make sense.
The past year has been completely insane - I won't go in to all the details, but I have had zero time / money and massive stress because I tried to set up a business with about 50p to my name. It was probably a terrible idea tbh..
but it was a decision I made with my heart, not my head. I got by for a bit, but things got pretty crazy towards the end of the year so I went back to work, and so found myself looking at the 205 and thinking: "Hmm.. that's the kind of money people use for getting a business off the ground. Sensible people, who realise that things take time and time costs money. Do I want to work a f***ing desk job to pay off my unit, or do I want to do some actual work in it - the work I actually like doing?". The answer is: Yes I do. So unfortunately, the car has to go.
But hang on.. Did I mention doing actual work in the unit? Well.. as much as all of that ^^^ probably sucked copious amounts of balls for you all to read, YOU DRY THOSE GODDAMN TEARS. Because what a treat I have for you:
Yes that is another 205 1.6 Auto!
Yes that is a Formula Renault engine & transaxle!
Yes it is going in the back!
Yes there will be clamshells!
Yes we are completely insane!
But most importantly of all:
Yes there will be a project thread! Complete with the same level of pics & details this one had.
The real work will start in a few weeks - 3rd June, to be precise, as that's when I leave aforementioned crummy desk job. As soon as my angle-grinder touches that bodyshell there will be a project thread in this forum, so keep yer peepers peeled.
Anyway.. sorry to be the bearer of sh***y news, but hopefully this sugar-coats it a little.
Thanks! That's the way I look at it, too.
The styling will remain a surprise until the body shows up (because I'm an a***hole like that) but it will be very tasteful, very 80's, and very cool.
On the gearbox: yes the assembly is very long! A mock-up with my space-frame CAD model shows that it's 200mm too long to fit, but I have a couple of options for making it work.
1: Move the main hoop 100mm forwards and have the diff 100mm behind the axle line - the former *should* be OK, given that I was sitting next to the B-pillar in my space-frame, and that some misalignment of the driveshafts is actually good for the CV joints, but we are going to do a mock-up once the rear floor is removed to see what the interior space will be like for the driver in that configuration. If it's no good, then goto step 2.
2: There is a dry sump tank in the bellhousing that adds roughly 300mm to the length of the assembly. This can be replaced with a custom bellhousing and separate tank, as well as shortening the input shaft, to reduce the overall length significantly. We'd rather not go down this route as it obviously adds expense and removes the "Plug & Play" installation of the FR engine & box, but if needs must then we will do it.
Just in case anyone is wondering: I plan to keep the space-frame and the rolling chassis components, assemble them, then mount the whole thing on the wall at my workshop.
The styling will remain a surprise until the body shows up (because I'm an a***hole like that) but it will be very tasteful, very 80's, and very cool.
On the gearbox: yes the assembly is very long! A mock-up with my space-frame CAD model shows that it's 200mm too long to fit, but I have a couple of options for making it work.
1: Move the main hoop 100mm forwards and have the diff 100mm behind the axle line - the former *should* be OK, given that I was sitting next to the B-pillar in my space-frame, and that some misalignment of the driveshafts is actually good for the CV joints, but we are going to do a mock-up once the rear floor is removed to see what the interior space will be like for the driver in that configuration. If it's no good, then goto step 2.
2: There is a dry sump tank in the bellhousing that adds roughly 300mm to the length of the assembly. This can be replaced with a custom bellhousing and separate tank, as well as shortening the input shaft, to reduce the overall length significantly. We'd rather not go down this route as it obviously adds expense and removes the "Plug & Play" installation of the FR engine & box, but if needs must then we will do it.
Just in case anyone is wondering: I plan to keep the space-frame and the rolling chassis components, assemble them, then mount the whole thing on the wall at my workshop.
Hello again..
Sorry it's taken me so long to get a project thread going for the new build, but I've been so busy with it that I've barely had the time to keep one updated, let alone spread it around!
The new build has been underway since June 2016 and is now approaching the finish, which should be around the end of February. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to link directly so if you search the web for "205 Endurance Racer Prototype" you should be able to find the thread.
Now should be a good time to start reading, as the majority of long tedious slogging is out the way and it's almost on its wheels!
Sorry it's taken me so long to get a project thread going for the new build, but I've been so busy with it that I've barely had the time to keep one updated, let alone spread it around!
The new build has been underway since June 2016 and is now approaching the finish, which should be around the end of February. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to link directly so if you search the web for "205 Endurance Racer Prototype" you should be able to find the thread.
Now should be a good time to start reading, as the majority of long tedious slogging is out the way and it's almost on its wheels!
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