Peugeot 205 Saloon Libre - RWD Space-Frame Silhouette Racer
Discussion
I am guessing the new Koeniggsegg interview may be of interest to you Cameron 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sr1jylROsqQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sr1jylROsqQ
Max_Torque said:
If you're going electric you need to do some homework!
you have 4 main issues to sort out:
1) Traction motor - as you won't be developing your own, broadly your options fall into two categories:
a) Off the shelf motor from the likes of Zytek, Yasa, MESL etc. Hope you have deep pockets!
b) Take existing motor from production EV. You could source something second hand, from a Tesla, etc. By using a separate refrigerant loop, you could cool the proddy motors below zero and get signifianctly more power and torque. Limiting factor would be winding flashover and demag.
For your light weight car, you don't need masses of power, but it reality, you car won't be as fast as it would be with an ICE as most EV's are well under 200kW (LEAF is 80kW, i3 is 125kW etc)
Mr Torque, thank you for your input! you have 4 main issues to sort out:
1) Traction motor - as you won't be developing your own, broadly your options fall into two categories:
a) Off the shelf motor from the likes of Zytek, Yasa, MESL etc. Hope you have deep pockets!
b) Take existing motor from production EV. You could source something second hand, from a Tesla, etc. By using a separate refrigerant loop, you could cool the proddy motors below zero and get signifianctly more power and torque. Limiting factor would be winding flashover and demag.
For your light weight car, you don't need masses of power, but it reality, you car won't be as fast as it would be with an ICE as most EV's are well under 200kW (LEAF is 80kW, i3 is 125kW etc)
I fired off a quick email to YASA yesterday, requesting general prices for their units, and the result is about £9k per motor and £3.5k per controller / inverter - so about £25k for a 2-motor & controller installation.
It would be sexy as hell, of course, but I think those prices would be prohibitively expensive!
Plenty of other options to explore, of course! The drive unit from a Tesla could well be cheaper, but I assume would require controllers etc which will add expense - particularly if integration with the DU is difficult.
Max_Torque said:
2) Battery - TBH, there's only really on sensible option here, and that is to us an existing EV battery, or at least the cells/sub packs from one. Leaf batteries or Tesla batteries are available s/h - If you can re-jig the packs to increase the dc link voltage, with suitable power silicon (which normally falls into two flavours, 600v and 1200v) you could get a much higher motor output than std.
Batteries are a tough one.. the rate of progress is so staggering that I think by the time I finish the build, whatever I went for would be outdated. I reckon you're right on using an existing EV battery pack. TBH I currently know close to SFA on EV tech, so would appreciate any guidance you could give!
I'd thought about asking you to email, but maybe this discussion would be interesting for people reading through? If you want to discuss in private then feel free to email - cam@saloonlibre.co.uk
Max_Torque said:
3) Power electronics - Possibly the hardest part. You probably can't use any production electronics as the integration task would be onerous. (you could use proddy power stages with custom controller). You might end up with a commercial inverter, from the likes of Sevcon etc Reasonably good, but pricey. If you can find some commercial grade 1200V power stages (Semikron Skai2 etc), then it's not impossible to roll your own controller
Making my own controller would be seriously boner-inducing! I think that's the route I would take. Max_Torque said:
4) Transmission - Probably the easiest to solve. Either have none (which is not great for performance) or use a basic 4 speed dog box from quaife etc
I suppose it depends on what max speed I need, as to whether a transmission is required? My Drenth gearing tops out at 150mph, but tbh that's probably a bit fast for any UK hillclimb I'll attend, and most UK tracks too!Max_Torque said:
(if you built a range extender engine / genny, you could save significant costs on your battery, but your system complexity/costs would go through the roof (two sets of inverters, motors, possibly a DC-DC convertor, and a suitable system controller to integrate the whole thing, not to mention cooling, fuel systems etc etc)
Regen would be lovely, but probably a thing to integrate later. With the IC installation I was going down the route of starting simple and adding complexity as development packs; I think that ethos would carry over to electric propulsion. Thanks again for the info! I have to admit this is completely new to me, so I'm likely to need a lot more guidance!
Sf_Manta said:
Funny you should mention EV requirements...
I deal with this kinda thing daily at work Cam, so parts and such, cabling for HV applications is what Frost EV do.
http://www.frostevsystems.co.uk/
Though you'll probably want parts so. http://www.frostevparts.co.uk/
Cables and such we can knock up within a few weeks, so long as you've got Kostal / Tyco connectors.
Thanks Ian, I'll bear that in mind for when this idea develops further! I deal with this kinda thing daily at work Cam, so parts and such, cabling for HV applications is what Frost EV do.
http://www.frostevsystems.co.uk/
Though you'll probably want parts so. http://www.frostevparts.co.uk/
Cables and such we can knock up within a few weeks, so long as you've got Kostal / Tyco connectors.
As per my comments to MT, feel free to drop me an email or add whatever you like to the discussion here! As I said, this is a completely new thing to me, so any information will be very useful!
I'm all about throwing myself in at the deep end!
CamMoreRon said:
Sf_Manta said:
Funny you should mention EV requirements...
I deal with this kinda thing daily at work Cam, so parts and such, cabling for HV applications is what Frost EV do.
http://www.frostevsystems.co.uk/
Though you'll probably want parts so. http://www.frostevparts.co.uk/
Cables and such we can knock up within a few weeks, so long as you've got Kostal / Tyco connectors.
Thanks Ian, I'll bear that in mind for when this idea develops further! I deal with this kinda thing daily at work Cam, so parts and such, cabling for HV applications is what Frost EV do.
http://www.frostevsystems.co.uk/
Though you'll probably want parts so. http://www.frostevparts.co.uk/
Cables and such we can knock up within a few weeks, so long as you've got Kostal / Tyco connectors.
As per my comments to MT, feel free to drop me an email or add whatever you like to the discussion here! As I said, this is a completely new thing to me, so any information will be very useful!
I'm all about throwing myself in at the deep end!
You were good for that. Of note, if the EV route does prove too expensive , and given Yanza's costs, that's actually about the norm at the moment, even if we'd done it, you're probably looking similar costs.
Will say though, we do build 1 off harnesses for motorsports applications here as well, so if you're needing a proper loom like Peacey did for the FS car, it's something that could be done here.
It'd include probably a full design as well with wiring schematic, but that's around £2k for the harness alone, plus probably £2k for design work, or there abouts.
TBH, assuming your not just going to splash ~£25k at Yasa, and i'm slightly surprised they even gave you prices (they are pretty busy with the big boys projects at the moment) then the two bits you probably can't "make at home" are the motor and the battery cells.
My suggestion is to get the motor sorted first, as the Emachine you use totally sets the rest of the system boundary conditions (DC link Voltage, current requirement, mech gear ratios etc etc).
Your choice is between an AC motor and a brushless Permanent Magnet machine. The AC option is safer (because without field excitation it's just a chunk of iron spinning round, so has no Bemf) but rarer (tesla only i think), and has a poorer specific power/torque.
IPM/SPM are more common (LEAF/i3/Volt) and are more efficient, but you must control Vfwd at all time the motor is spinning to control motor torque torque (ie, in a fault case when you can't control the stator fields, you must open the DC link contactor to avoid uncontrolled generation etc) (How much field weakening you use has a big impact on the safety case in this respect, because the motors Bemf is HIGHER than Vdclink!)
Realistically, i think you're going to be keeping under 200kW of electrical DC link power, which at a nominal 440Vdc link (max you'd want to use with 600V power silicon) means 450A, which is just about within the short term limits of something like a Semikron Skai inverter.
(As stage two, you could swap to 1200V silicon, push Vdclink to say 800V and see if you can vapourise your motor windings later...... ;-)
If you get s/h battery pack(s), from a Leaf etc, then you can take the individual cells and wire them in series/parallel to produce a suitable Vdclink, at the necessary voltage/current.
If you can use at least a two speed transmission, you will be making your car a LOT faster for little added cost (but a slight added complexity if you wanted to fully automate that transmission shifting - (a-la FormulaE etc) One good option is to use a modified conventional autotransmission to provide a few epicyclic ratios, which are easy to shift by taking control of the shift solenoids (two speeds would be very easy this way)
Certainly an interesting project, but expect your learning curve to be pretty much vertical, and don't underestimate how difficult it is to engineer a robust,safe,~200kW electrical powertrain.........
My suggestion is to get the motor sorted first, as the Emachine you use totally sets the rest of the system boundary conditions (DC link Voltage, current requirement, mech gear ratios etc etc).
Your choice is between an AC motor and a brushless Permanent Magnet machine. The AC option is safer (because without field excitation it's just a chunk of iron spinning round, so has no Bemf) but rarer (tesla only i think), and has a poorer specific power/torque.
IPM/SPM are more common (LEAF/i3/Volt) and are more efficient, but you must control Vfwd at all time the motor is spinning to control motor torque torque (ie, in a fault case when you can't control the stator fields, you must open the DC link contactor to avoid uncontrolled generation etc) (How much field weakening you use has a big impact on the safety case in this respect, because the motors Bemf is HIGHER than Vdclink!)
Realistically, i think you're going to be keeping under 200kW of electrical DC link power, which at a nominal 440Vdc link (max you'd want to use with 600V power silicon) means 450A, which is just about within the short term limits of something like a Semikron Skai inverter.
(As stage two, you could swap to 1200V silicon, push Vdclink to say 800V and see if you can vapourise your motor windings later...... ;-)
If you get s/h battery pack(s), from a Leaf etc, then you can take the individual cells and wire them in series/parallel to produce a suitable Vdclink, at the necessary voltage/current.
If you can use at least a two speed transmission, you will be making your car a LOT faster for little added cost (but a slight added complexity if you wanted to fully automate that transmission shifting - (a-la FormulaE etc) One good option is to use a modified conventional autotransmission to provide a few epicyclic ratios, which are easy to shift by taking control of the shift solenoids (two speeds would be very easy this way)
Certainly an interesting project, but expect your learning curve to be pretty much vertical, and don't underestimate how difficult it is to engineer a robust,safe,~200kW electrical powertrain.........
Also reading through it, there's also no mention of a DC to DC convertor, given main bus voltages would be around the 360-440v range, there's still the need to have a step down to 12v for the accessories and for any cooling required for the batteries, power steering for one, any gearbox feeds if using the 6 speed sequential, providing it stands up to the torque, and anything else considered.
Most DC to DC modules need cooling either by air or more usual a glyco mix (aka stock engine coolant) and aren't cheap being around the £5k mark alone and the battery would require it's own cooling circuit as well.
It's not quite as simple as it initially looks.
Most DC to DC modules need cooling either by air or more usual a glyco mix (aka stock engine coolant) and aren't cheap being around the £5k mark alone and the battery would require it's own cooling circuit as well.
It's not quite as simple as it initially looks.
No-one's mentioned GKN EVO e-machines yet, which do offer some 200+kW options. Their lesser powered AF130 product is their most mature though, and proved robust in my experience. Goes without saying that the GKN part of the union can do gearboxes! Didn't have such a good experience with Yasa product in another EV proto though, lots of motor resolver issues which gave very poor low-speed control. Dependant on the Yasa product used, you might not need a transmission.
When it comes to motor selection, pay close attention to power/power density and its operating speed range. Apologies if this sounds obvious, but lots of the manufacturers (mainly of axial flux machines) like to quote big numbers for peak torque and/or torque density - which is obviously pointless if the motor can only do 25rpm...
The electric drag racing crowd and DIY-EVers generally seem to prefer DC motors for their simple control and low cost. Efficiency and power/weight aren't in the same league as AC induction or AC PM machines though, but you don't get spanked so hard in the wallet.
Inverters/motor controllers for AC machines are an interesting one, I've not found anyone offering more than 450Vdc MAX using 600/650V IGBTs, so I'd be interested to hear if MT knows otherwise based on his 440Vdc nominal comment. Most Power Electronics suppliers get a bit shy above 425Vdc with 600V IGBTs inside. If you're buying something off-the-shelf, I've had good experiences with stuff from TM4, but they're not a budget option.
Infineon do a series of DIY-inverter/motor controller kits (IGBTs and gate driver boards): see here, but a reasonable amount of electronic hardware and embedded software know-how is required. You'd also need to parallel them up looking at the power ratings. Not sure how they stack up against the Semikron stuff MT mentioned, I haven't used Semikron product for 10 years or so - back then Infineon didn't have any mature hybrid or EV suitable product, so Semikron may be better.
If you're planning on re-purposing an OEM Li-Ion battery pack, I'd not underestimate the potential headache of cooling your new pack/modules to get decent performance out of it. An aircon system for cooling is a must unless you're talking drag strip use only. Achieving uniform cooling across all cells can take some careful thought and implementation. I believe that Tesla's chemistry may be the most preferential for performance, but I'm not a chemist!
Battery management system is another potential minefield - there's a lot of crap ones out there, and unpicking/modifying an OEM system on your own may prove overly arduous. Probably best to keep it very simple, and just stick with manual balancing and keeping an eye on cell temps yourself.
Plenty of odds n sods to spend your money on after the big bits too. Think DC-DC has already been mentioned, but you'll also want a charger of some description (off-the-shelf 3kW jobbies supporting IEC 61851 control pilot comms for public charge posts are about £1k), then there's the boring bits like brake vacuum pumps; displays; PTC heaters, some sort of ECU to do your torque control etc. Getting hold of HV aircon compressors can be a real challenge too.
When it comes to motor selection, pay close attention to power/power density and its operating speed range. Apologies if this sounds obvious, but lots of the manufacturers (mainly of axial flux machines) like to quote big numbers for peak torque and/or torque density - which is obviously pointless if the motor can only do 25rpm...
The electric drag racing crowd and DIY-EVers generally seem to prefer DC motors for their simple control and low cost. Efficiency and power/weight aren't in the same league as AC induction or AC PM machines though, but you don't get spanked so hard in the wallet.
Inverters/motor controllers for AC machines are an interesting one, I've not found anyone offering more than 450Vdc MAX using 600/650V IGBTs, so I'd be interested to hear if MT knows otherwise based on his 440Vdc nominal comment. Most Power Electronics suppliers get a bit shy above 425Vdc with 600V IGBTs inside. If you're buying something off-the-shelf, I've had good experiences with stuff from TM4, but they're not a budget option.
Infineon do a series of DIY-inverter/motor controller kits (IGBTs and gate driver boards): see here, but a reasonable amount of electronic hardware and embedded software know-how is required. You'd also need to parallel them up looking at the power ratings. Not sure how they stack up against the Semikron stuff MT mentioned, I haven't used Semikron product for 10 years or so - back then Infineon didn't have any mature hybrid or EV suitable product, so Semikron may be better.
If you're planning on re-purposing an OEM Li-Ion battery pack, I'd not underestimate the potential headache of cooling your new pack/modules to get decent performance out of it. An aircon system for cooling is a must unless you're talking drag strip use only. Achieving uniform cooling across all cells can take some careful thought and implementation. I believe that Tesla's chemistry may be the most preferential for performance, but I'm not a chemist!
Battery management system is another potential minefield - there's a lot of crap ones out there, and unpicking/modifying an OEM system on your own may prove overly arduous. Probably best to keep it very simple, and just stick with manual balancing and keeping an eye on cell temps yourself.
Plenty of odds n sods to spend your money on after the big bits too. Think DC-DC has already been mentioned, but you'll also want a charger of some description (off-the-shelf 3kW jobbies supporting IEC 61851 control pilot comms for public charge posts are about £1k), then there's the boring bits like brake vacuum pumps; displays; PTC heaters, some sort of ECU to do your torque control etc. Getting hold of HV aircon compressors can be a real challenge too.
Probably some form of HV isolation monitoring is a good idea too if you're safety conscious. A read of UNECE Regulation 100 will give you an idea of some of the EV-specific type approval/safety requirements too. Obviously not something you'd have to comply with, but might give you some other ideas.
CamMoreRon said:
Afternoon chaps,
It's been a while since I could work on the 205, so I've had a fair amount of thinking / planning time (always dangerous) and am considering taking the project in a new direction.
My original plan was to go with a 2.0 Duratec turbo at around 350bhp and F/R configuration. Recently I can't stop thinking about ditching IC altogether and re-working the car to be fully electric-powered 4WD. I know that might be a shocking prospect (terrible pun, I'm sorry) but the car is about pushing boundaries and I don't really see IC as much of a challenge or relevance to the build any more!
The benefits would be huge from my perspective as a chassis & suspension designer, as I've been in a constant struggle to package everything for good weight distribution. More than that, though, the challenge of exploring EV tech and pushing things in a direction of considerable relevance to today's rapid progression from IC to EV would be very exciting!
Also, what could be better than an 80's matchbox blasting up the hills / round a track in almost total silence?
Get tt for closer to the edge it has an extra on did of the electric bike doing tt very interesting
It'll be a few more months until things are stable enough to work on the car again, which gives me plenty of time to plan things out!
So.. thoughts?
It's been a while since I could work on the 205, so I've had a fair amount of thinking / planning time (always dangerous) and am considering taking the project in a new direction.
My original plan was to go with a 2.0 Duratec turbo at around 350bhp and F/R configuration. Recently I can't stop thinking about ditching IC altogether and re-working the car to be fully electric-powered 4WD. I know that might be a shocking prospect (terrible pun, I'm sorry) but the car is about pushing boundaries and I don't really see IC as much of a challenge or relevance to the build any more!
The benefits would be huge from my perspective as a chassis & suspension designer, as I've been in a constant struggle to package everything for good weight distribution. More than that, though, the challenge of exploring EV tech and pushing things in a direction of considerable relevance to today's rapid progression from IC to EV would be very exciting!
Also, what could be better than an 80's matchbox blasting up the hills / round a track in almost total silence?
Get tt for closer to the edge it has an extra on did of the electric bike doing tt very interesting
It'll be a few more months until things are stable enough to work on the car again, which gives me plenty of time to plan things out!
So.. thoughts?
CamMoreRon said:
Sorry guys, no updates as yet! Things have been flat out with the new business so I haven't even had the time to get the car out of storage and in to the new workshop!
With any luck I'll be back at it early 2016.
PS - You'll be happy to hear I've decided to keep it as a 2.0 turbo.
With any luck I'll be back at it early 2016.
PS - You'll be happy to hear I've decided to keep it as a 2.0 turbo.
Thank f
k for that!n3il123 said:
CamMoreRon said:
Sorry guys, no updates as yet! Things have been flat out with the new business so I haven't even had the time to get the car out of storage and in to the new workshop!
With any luck I'll be back at it early 2016.
PS - You'll be happy to hear I've decided to keep it as a 2.0 turbo.
With any luck I'll be back at it early 2016.
PS - You'll be happy to hear I've decided to keep it as a 2.0 turbo.
Thank fk for that!A quick update:
Things have been all over the place since I set up 'shop, but are thankfully set to stabilise and I'll be looking to get the car moved up to the new place in November / December
. The project will never ever ever be abandoned, so sit tight and I'll get some proper updates coming in the new year!
Morning all.
I have some mixed news, and this first part may upset a few people.. Over the past few months I've been wondering when the next opportunity to work on this car is going to be, and whether it makes sense to keep such a thing (and the vast hoard of parts) locked up in a shed, waiting for the day I eventually have the time and cash to finish it off. To be really blunt about it, it doesn't make sense.
The past year has been completely insane - I won't go in to all the details, but I have had zero time / money and massive stress because I tried to set up a business with about 50p to my name. It was probably a terrible idea tbh.. but it was a decision I made with my heart, not my head. I got by for a bit, but things got pretty crazy towards the end of the year so I went back to work, and so found myself looking at the 205 and thinking: "Hmm.. that's the kind of money people use for getting a business off the ground. Sensible people, who realise that things take time and time costs money. Do I want to work a f***ing desk job to pay off my unit, or do I want to do some actual work in it - the work I actually like doing?".
The answer is: Yes I do. So unfortunately, the car has to go.
But hang on.. Did I mention doing actual work in the unit? Well.. as much as all of that ^^^ probably sucked copious amounts of balls for you all to read, YOU DRY THOSE GODDAMN TEARS. Because what a treat I have for you:
Yes that is another 205 1.6 Auto!
Yes that is a Formula Renault engine & transaxle!
Yes it is going in the back!
Yes there will be clamshells!
Yes we are completely insane!
But most importantly of all:
Yes there will be a project thread! Complete with the same level of pics & details this one had.
The real work will start in a few weeks - 3rd June, to be precise, as that's when I leave aforementioned crummy desk job. As soon as my angle-grinder touches that bodyshell there will be a project thread in this forum, so keep yer peepers peeled.
Anyway.. sorry to be the bearer of sh***y news, but hopefully this sugar-coats it a little.
I have some mixed news, and this first part may upset a few people.. Over the past few months I've been wondering when the next opportunity to work on this car is going to be, and whether it makes sense to keep such a thing (and the vast hoard of parts) locked up in a shed, waiting for the day I eventually have the time and cash to finish it off. To be really blunt about it, it doesn't make sense.
The past year has been completely insane - I won't go in to all the details, but I have had zero time / money and massive stress because I tried to set up a business with about 50p to my name. It was probably a terrible idea tbh..
but it was a decision I made with my heart, not my head. I got by for a bit, but things got pretty crazy towards the end of the year so I went back to work, and so found myself looking at the 205 and thinking: "Hmm.. that's the kind of money people use for getting a business off the ground. Sensible people, who realise that things take time and time costs money. Do I want to work a f***ing desk job to pay off my unit, or do I want to do some actual work in it - the work I actually like doing?". The answer is: Yes I do. So unfortunately, the car has to go.
But hang on.. Did I mention doing actual work in the unit? Well.. as much as all of that ^^^ probably sucked copious amounts of balls for you all to read, YOU DRY THOSE GODDAMN TEARS. Because what a treat I have for you:
Yes that is another 205 1.6 Auto!
Yes that is a Formula Renault engine & transaxle!
Yes it is going in the back!
Yes there will be clamshells!
Yes we are completely insane!
But most importantly of all:
Yes there will be a project thread! Complete with the same level of pics & details this one had.
The real work will start in a few weeks - 3rd June, to be precise, as that's when I leave aforementioned crummy desk job. As soon as my angle-grinder touches that bodyshell there will be a project thread in this forum, so keep yer peepers peeled.
Anyway.. sorry to be the bearer of sh***y news, but hopefully this sugar-coats it a little.
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