Spartan Mercedes 190 (w201)
Discussion
r129sl said:
I think my attitude to these cars makes sense. I think it is the cheapest way for me to motor well without taking safety and reliability risks and without cutting back on pleasure. I don't know what I have spent on this 190. Maybe £7,000 all told, including its purchase and various consumables. It will do 15,000miles a year for us. They will all be pleasurable miles. It is a really special car, which we will enjoy using more than any affordable modern. Next year I might spend £1,500 on it; likewise the year after. It will always be worth £2,500 on our imaginary balance sheet.
By comparison, last week I was sent a leasing proposal for a brand new Mercedes E220 CDI SE Auto. The total cost over three years was £12,750. But I would only be permitted 8,000miles per annum. Up the mileage and the costs go up quite significantly: at 8p per mile, the extra 21,000miles over three years works out at an extra £1,680. So call it £14,500. Then at the end of the three years, I have to give the car back with nothing to show for it. Except maybe a bill for the scuffs on the alloys, the dinks in the door, the inevitable upholstery stain.
So these cars are not an extravagance. At best, they are cost neutral. At worst, they maybe cost a little more. But here's the rub. I'd rather poke my eyes out than drive a poxy E220CDI SE in resale black over hideous black vinyl with silver trims, big wheels, rock hard suspension...
I agree with you, but only up to a point. I like nice cars, and as I've got older a defining element of 'nice' is relaxed speed - the ability to waft unobtrusively, economically, and incredibly comfortably.By comparison, last week I was sent a leasing proposal for a brand new Mercedes E220 CDI SE Auto. The total cost over three years was £12,750. But I would only be permitted 8,000miles per annum. Up the mileage and the costs go up quite significantly: at 8p per mile, the extra 21,000miles over three years works out at an extra £1,680. So call it £14,500. Then at the end of the three years, I have to give the car back with nothing to show for it. Except maybe a bill for the scuffs on the alloys, the dinks in the door, the inevitable upholstery stain.
So these cars are not an extravagance. At best, they are cost neutral. At worst, they maybe cost a little more. But here's the rub. I'd rather poke my eyes out than drive a poxy E220CDI SE in resale black over hideous black vinyl with silver trims, big wheels, rock hard suspension...
One of my fleet, an 02 E39 530i, is getting a little tired. Essentially, the choice was to spend a reasonable amount refreshing it or to swap it out. Everything works, but it really needs a cooling system refresh, new dashboard pixels, and a dent taking out of the wing. Spending money on cars has never been a problem for me, but no matter what I spent I'd not be able to get rid of the thirst (25mpg and a small tank is just annoying) and the inherent wind noise. So the E39 is going - need to stick it on AT or eBay this week.
Like you, I'd not dream of leasing a car, but unlike you I like things like Bluetooth, driver aids, electric heated seats/mirrors, climate control, and some semblance of speed, few of which you'll get from a 190. Manual gearbox, mirrors and windows hold no pleasure for me, and I just loathe sunroofs.
So I've gone part-Spartan and acquired something almost identical to your leasing proposal - a post-facelift S211 220 CDI in resale silver. This one, however, is 10 years old and has 130k miles on it, with a every-bill-included service history. Other than one blemish on the plastics (a rear bumper thing) it's perfect. It lopes rather than charges, and although it's quantifiably slower than the BMW, I'm happier doing sustained high speeds as it's a lot quieter and more relaxed.
The cost? Just over £3k for the car, then a full service (inc sorting suspension components) and 2 new tyres as I just didn't like the lower mid-range nasties fitted) and I'm still below £4k. I can run it for as many miles as I like and know that the car may depreciate a little , but if in the same condition I'd be surprised if it didn't realise £2k in four or five years time. Annual costs will vary, but assuming 20k per annum it'll need a service (averaging say £500 including a shock absorber or a wishbone) and a couple of tyres - so a total of maybe £800 per annum. Not awful.
And having driven/owned many Mercedes models over the years (201, 123, 210, 124 and a 164 which I currently own), I have to say that the spec of mine - little engine, small wheels, soft suspension, zero bling, no sunroof - coupled with a fast-enough engine and a beautifully quiet environment plus a 700 mile range, is pretty much the sweet spot. Sure, the bigger-engined diesel would be quicker, and the AMG models are ferocious fun, but the little 220 is really a very nice place to spend a day.
Horses for courses, obviously, and I salute your efforts. Just a bit too Spartan for me; I drove a timewarp-condition 12v 300E 124 over Christmas, and loved the way it went, but I preferred my little 220.
To be honest, I think your words probably hit the nail on the head: that w211 is right in the "sweet spot". New enough still to be up-to-date; old enough to be very affordable but not so old as to be knackered and requiring heavy expenditure. I don't suppose it will cost very much to run at all for the next couple of years and it probably won't depreciate much more, either.
I'm quite attracted to a s211, not really for the efficiency and gadgets as for the safety and performance. If I could find a nice E500 Elegance I'd be sorely tempted.
All that said, I thoroughly enjoyed running the 190 into town today and it was certainly not slow or hard work. If anything its simplicity makes it very easy to use and its lightness makes it a great drive.
I'm quite attracted to a s211, not really for the efficiency and gadgets as for the safety and performance. If I could find a nice E500 Elegance I'd be sorely tempted.
All that said, I thoroughly enjoyed running the 190 into town today and it was certainly not slow or hard work. If anything its simplicity makes it very easy to use and its lightness makes it a great drive.
I took the 190 to Mercedes-Benz of Newcastle upon Tyne for its annual service today. As always, the main dealer covered itself with glory. Of course, when booking the car in, I explained that it needed new front brake pads and asked that they be changed. And of course, when booking the car in, I was assured it would be ready by the end of the day and, indeed, I explained that it really was essential that I had it back by 4pm. Finally, when booking the car in, I requested and was assured that a particular chap would work on it.
Result? At 4.30pm, someone who I have never heard of before telephones and explains that it needs new front brake pads, that they do not have all of the parts required, that they will not have them until tomorrow and that it is not ready. What else? Well, he tells me, you should change the coolant and brake fluid. I ask why. They might be due, it is explained. Really? But both were changed by your dear selves at huge expense but 11 months ago.
Ah. Oh. Oh, well, there is also some slight vertical wear in the ball joints. Hmm, I say, that is possible. Well, that's a cheap fix, they are separate items, about £20 each, you should have some in stock. Oh no, Mr Rodger, you have to change the bottom arm. We have priced up the job for you. With discount, each bottom arm is £250 and the labour brings the job to £890. Long pause. Are you sure? I ask, I thought the ball joints were separate items on the 201, just as they are on most 124s. Let me check again, says the redoubtable Glen. Yes, yes, I am sure, you have to change the whole bottom arm. Hmm, Glen, would you look at part 33 of the EPC, sheet 30, item 64, part number 1243330327 (I am getting quick on the computer). It looks to me like the ball joint is a separate item. Now, then, tell me, is it that you are incompetent or is it that you are dishonest? Uh, oh, er, I'll look into that and get back to you.
Needless to say, nobody has got back to me.
In future, my cars are going to MB for the annual stamp only and nothing more. And I will not buy my parts from MB Newcastle. That's all I can do, really, isn't it?
Result? At 4.30pm, someone who I have never heard of before telephones and explains that it needs new front brake pads, that they do not have all of the parts required, that they will not have them until tomorrow and that it is not ready. What else? Well, he tells me, you should change the coolant and brake fluid. I ask why. They might be due, it is explained. Really? But both were changed by your dear selves at huge expense but 11 months ago.
Ah. Oh. Oh, well, there is also some slight vertical wear in the ball joints. Hmm, I say, that is possible. Well, that's a cheap fix, they are separate items, about £20 each, you should have some in stock. Oh no, Mr Rodger, you have to change the bottom arm. We have priced up the job for you. With discount, each bottom arm is £250 and the labour brings the job to £890. Long pause. Are you sure? I ask, I thought the ball joints were separate items on the 201, just as they are on most 124s. Let me check again, says the redoubtable Glen. Yes, yes, I am sure, you have to change the whole bottom arm. Hmm, Glen, would you look at part 33 of the EPC, sheet 30, item 64, part number 1243330327 (I am getting quick on the computer). It looks to me like the ball joint is a separate item. Now, then, tell me, is it that you are incompetent or is it that you are dishonest? Uh, oh, er, I'll look into that and get back to you.
Needless to say, nobody has got back to me.
In future, my cars are going to MB for the annual stamp only and nothing more. And I will not buy my parts from MB Newcastle. That's all I can do, really, isn't it?
The excuse given this morning is that the arms need replacing due to corrosion. Now, I know that the arms don't need replacing due to corrosion because (1) I had a good look at them when I mounted the summer wheels last week, (2) these arms never need replacing due to corrosion and (3) I can see clearly on the visual health check video gimmick that they emailed me that the arms are in good order. And funnily enough, neither the technician who does the talking on the daft video mentioned them nor was this the excuse given yesterday afternoon. I'm afraid my conclusion is that they are dishonest.
I echo the above - having done the rounds of local dealers (1 was fantastic for 7 years until there was a change of staff) our 211 and 219 will only go for the basic service, and everything else I'll do myself or they will go to an indy.
I also agree with the comments above re the 211 (which apply equally to the 219 CLS). When we first got them they seemed incredibly complicated but with some research and a few bits of kit, most tasks (or at least those that have been required to date) seem pretty achievable. I flirt with newer Mercedes, but realise I'm being seduced by the technology but repelled by the bling, so will run these for a while yet.
I also agree with the comments above re the 211 (which apply equally to the 219 CLS). When we first got them they seemed incredibly complicated but with some research and a few bits of kit, most tasks (or at least those that have been required to date) seem pretty achievable. I flirt with newer Mercedes, but realise I'm being seduced by the technology but repelled by the bling, so will run these for a while yet.
r129sl said:
The excuse given this morning is that the arms need replacing due to corrosion. Now, I know that the arms don't need replacing due to corrosion because (1) I had a good look at them when I mounted the summer wheels last week, (2) these arms never need replacing due to corrosion and (3) I can see clearly on the visual health check video gimmick that they emailed me that the arms are in good order. And funnily enough, neither the technician who does the talking on the daft video mentioned them nor was this the excuse given yesterday afternoon. I'm afraid my conclusion is that they are dishonest.
I think that's the only conclusion to reach, unfortunately. I dismissed the video they email to you the first few times, but when the CLS was last serviced (while I waited) I was able to hear the technician give it a clean bill of health before the front of house chap came to tell me the good news - at least they agreed in my case! (I'd replaced all lower arms and drop links a few weeks earlier, and it was a pleasure not to hear the tech sucking his teeth at the idiot who had assembled something upside down and back to front!).
Edited by Stegel on Wednesday 20th April 10:58
I've had them on grovelling and apologising for "over-selling". Anyway, Lemförder left control arm on Amazon for £46 (!) and the right side at SKS for £95. Tempted to order them up and have Baister fit them, just for the sake of it. Crazy to replace only the ball joint when the whole thing can be done for very little more.
Stegel, what did you do about alignment when you did it DIY?
Stegel, what did you do about alignment when you did it DIY?
Alignment - a good question and one I'm rather ducking at present! The full version:
The Febi arms kit included bolts allowing a degree of adjustment (these are grooved bolts that slide in to engage with ribs within elongated holes within the bushes, giving fixed, 2 choice adjustment "one way or the other" rather than the eccentric bolts that allow continuously variable adjustment within a range that you see on 124s etc.) in contrast to the smooth bolts in the original arms. I used a spirit level to achieve the same camber as before - crude but effective - but intend to get it set up properly, as the car has always destroyed the inner edges of the front tyres (they all do that, sir).
But:
- Before I do that, I intend to replace the track rod ends, which is only worth doing before having the alignment done.
- If I'm doing that, I may as well (at 110k miles) change the top mounts which will also undo professional alignment.
- I was preparing to travel 70 miles to the supposed champ of MB alignment, but have discovered a mass of negative comments re sharp practice and ineffective work, so am now struggling to find someone who really understands the way to adjust these (apparently there are obscure eccentric bolts that allow fine adjustment of camber and castor).
- I have been waylaid by my wife's S211 snapping a spring, which I replaced, and two weeks off work due to illness.
It runs true at present, but I need to find someone local and then get it finished. I'm warming up for a complete refresh (and clean up and paint of the front structural underside) of the A124 front suspension so really need to get my act together and find somewhere, as that will need heavy adjustment (I should say I love work like this, but have to fit it in with a demanding job, active family life, dogs etc!).
ETA -apologies for the rambling post, most of which is an excuse for inactivity!
The Febi arms kit included bolts allowing a degree of adjustment (these are grooved bolts that slide in to engage with ribs within elongated holes within the bushes, giving fixed, 2 choice adjustment "one way or the other" rather than the eccentric bolts that allow continuously variable adjustment within a range that you see on 124s etc.) in contrast to the smooth bolts in the original arms. I used a spirit level to achieve the same camber as before - crude but effective - but intend to get it set up properly, as the car has always destroyed the inner edges of the front tyres (they all do that, sir).
But:
- Before I do that, I intend to replace the track rod ends, which is only worth doing before having the alignment done.
- If I'm doing that, I may as well (at 110k miles) change the top mounts which will also undo professional alignment.
- I was preparing to travel 70 miles to the supposed champ of MB alignment, but have discovered a mass of negative comments re sharp practice and ineffective work, so am now struggling to find someone who really understands the way to adjust these (apparently there are obscure eccentric bolts that allow fine adjustment of camber and castor).
- I have been waylaid by my wife's S211 snapping a spring, which I replaced, and two weeks off work due to illness.
It runs true at present, but I need to find someone local and then get it finished. I'm warming up for a complete refresh (and clean up and paint of the front structural underside) of the A124 front suspension so really need to get my act together and find somewhere, as that will need heavy adjustment (I should say I love work like this, but have to fit it in with a demanding job, active family life, dogs etc!).
ETA -apologies for the rambling post, most of which is an excuse for inactivity!
Edited by Stegel on Wednesday 20th April 12:19
It's the same for me: I really enjoy this kind of work but struggle to fit it in. Added to which I usually fix one thing but break two more (remember the fuel tank fiasco).
I collected the car from MB Newcastle just now. They were grovelingly apologetic but, really, what's the point? I think the techs are good on the whole and the upper level management, too, but it's the jobsworths in between who are trying to screw a few more hundred pounds out of everyone. I noticed on the bill they charged me £48 for 5litres of Shell Helix Ultra 5w 40; I have just collected from Euro Car Parts 10litres of the same stuff at a price of £31.98. I also noticed they charged me for a poxy Merc oil filter when they used the superior Mann item I supplied (that's just the computer sticking the standard parts on the job, not dishonesty, but it shows the lack of personal care). I'm giving them the SL tomorrow.
Anyway, what a joy that simple little 190 is pottering about in traffic in the glorious sunshine. The colour is so rich: it's like a pool of custard cream. With the sunshine roof pulled back and the wireless on, it feels even more sprightly than usual.
I collected the car from MB Newcastle just now. They were grovelingly apologetic but, really, what's the point? I think the techs are good on the whole and the upper level management, too, but it's the jobsworths in between who are trying to screw a few more hundred pounds out of everyone. I noticed on the bill they charged me £48 for 5litres of Shell Helix Ultra 5w 40; I have just collected from Euro Car Parts 10litres of the same stuff at a price of £31.98. I also noticed they charged me for a poxy Merc oil filter when they used the superior Mann item I supplied (that's just the computer sticking the standard parts on the job, not dishonesty, but it shows the lack of personal care). I'm giving them the SL tomorrow.
Anyway, what a joy that simple little 190 is pottering about in traffic in the glorious sunshine. The colour is so rich: it's like a pool of custard cream. With the sunshine roof pulled back and the wireless on, it feels even more sprightly than usual.
Stegel said:
They do sound particularly useless - good luck with the SL!
MB Stourbridge reduce their quote by about £140 and I leave two packs of Mobil 1 in the boot - they leave whatever's left, so I save about £80. I've done the same with ATF and they have never mistakenly charged.
Sounds like you could be pretty local to me!MB Stourbridge reduce their quote by about £140 and I leave two packs of Mobil 1 in the boot - they leave whatever's left, so I save about £80. I've done the same with ATF and they have never mistakenly charged.
I work in Stourbridge and I've heard good things about MB Stourbridge (that site formerly being Lex Land Rover, as I recall?)
For any of my cars (no matter how new or old), they go to a guy I've known since I was a small child (and he was a slightly larger child). Just through habit, mostly. And I've known him long enough to feel sure that he will do the right thing.
I've never been too bothered by main dealer stamps. I'm more interested in trusting the work done.
Jimmy Recard said:
Sounds like you could be pretty local to me!
I work in Stourbridge and I've heard good things about MB Stourbridge (that site formerly being Lex Land Rover, as I recall?).
I'm actually 20 miles away - that says all you need to know about the "convenient" dealers! MB Stourbridge do stand above others, in particular those owned by MBUK. I work in Stourbridge and I've heard good things about MB Stourbridge (that site formerly being Lex Land Rover, as I recall?).
r129sl said:
I took the 190 to Mercedes-Benz of Newcastle upon Tyne for its annual service today. As always, the main dealer covered itself with glory. Of course, when booking the car in, I explained that it needed new front brake pads and asked that they be changed. And of course, when booking the car in, I was assured it would be ready by the end of the day and, indeed, I explained that it really was essential that I had it back by 4pm. Finally, when booking the car in, I requested and was assured that a particular chap would work on it.
Result? At 4.30pm, someone who I have never heard of before telephones and explains that it needs new front brake pads, that they do not have all of the parts required, that they will not have them until tomorrow and that it is not ready. What else? Well, he tells me, you should change the coolant and brake fluid. I ask why. They might be due, it is explained. Really? But both were changed by your dear selves at huge expense but 11 months ago.
Ah. Oh. Oh, well, there is also some slight vertical wear in the ball joints. Hmm, I say, that is possible. Well, that's a cheap fix, they are separate items, about £20 each, you should have some in stock. Oh no, Mr Rodger, you have to change the bottom arm. We have priced up the job for you. With discount, each bottom arm is £250 and the labour brings the job to £890. Long pause. Are you sure? I ask, I thought the ball joints were separate items on the 201, just as they are on most 124s. Let me check again, says the redoubtable Glen. Yes, yes, I am sure, you have to change the whole bottom arm. Hmm, Glen, would you look at part 33 of the EPC, sheet 30, item 64, part number 1243330327 (I am getting quick on the computer). It looks to me like the ball joint is a separate item. Now, then, tell me, is it that you are incompetent or is it that you are dishonest? Uh, oh, er, I'll look into that and get back to you.
Needless to say, nobody has got back to me.
In future, my cars are going to MB for the annual stamp only and nothing more. And I will not buy my parts from MB Newcastle. That's all I can do, really, isn't it?
Glad its not just me that thinks Mercedes Newcastle are a Joke.Result? At 4.30pm, someone who I have never heard of before telephones and explains that it needs new front brake pads, that they do not have all of the parts required, that they will not have them until tomorrow and that it is not ready. What else? Well, he tells me, you should change the coolant and brake fluid. I ask why. They might be due, it is explained. Really? But both were changed by your dear selves at huge expense but 11 months ago.
Ah. Oh. Oh, well, there is also some slight vertical wear in the ball joints. Hmm, I say, that is possible. Well, that's a cheap fix, they are separate items, about £20 each, you should have some in stock. Oh no, Mr Rodger, you have to change the bottom arm. We have priced up the job for you. With discount, each bottom arm is £250 and the labour brings the job to £890. Long pause. Are you sure? I ask, I thought the ball joints were separate items on the 201, just as they are on most 124s. Let me check again, says the redoubtable Glen. Yes, yes, I am sure, you have to change the whole bottom arm. Hmm, Glen, would you look at part 33 of the EPC, sheet 30, item 64, part number 1243330327 (I am getting quick on the computer). It looks to me like the ball joint is a separate item. Now, then, tell me, is it that you are incompetent or is it that you are dishonest? Uh, oh, er, I'll look into that and get back to you.
Needless to say, nobody has got back to me.
In future, my cars are going to MB for the annual stamp only and nothing more. And I will not buy my parts from MB Newcastle. That's all I can do, really, isn't it?
My experience with them started on the delivery day of my new e350 estate. Bombed about in it all day, full of kids and dogs. returned home and took the dogs out for a walk and found a locking wheel nut on the road outside the house. checked the car - the rear passenger side was missing. Phone merc assist - the other 3 were loose and about to fall out.
I went beserk, I couldn't believe their complete and utter incompetence, thought that this was just a blip - but oh no, everytime the car went in, they f*cked it up, there was always a problem.
The car was fantastic, sadly the customer experience was shockingly bad.
I'm looking for a new car at the minute and would like another merc - I realise I can buy and take it elsewhere for servicing, but on the off chance I need to take it to Merc Newcastle and having to deal with those bozos again, really is putting me off.
P.s Regularly see the car around and about - is a thing of beauty, lovely!!
Edited by killysprint on Thursday 21st April 21:14
Stegel said:
I'm actually 20 miles away - that says all you need to know about the "convenient" dealers! MB Stourbridge do stand above others, in particular those owned by MBUK.
You could be very, very local to me then because I'm pretty much exactly 20 miles from Stourbridge!It just depends in what direction, I suppose!
Sounds like Mercedes Newcastle are as 'helpful' as Mercedes Liverpool then. They make everything such a chore. When the genuine Mercedes M102 oil filter was changed from something the size of a large tin of baked beans to something more akin to a small tin of tuna, I called it a day.
I just buy Mann stuff from Euro now. It was nice to have a wedge of Mercedes receipts in the folder but it's not worth the bother anymore. Anything that is dealer only I order from Blackburn who will offer stuff in and discount it without asking for payment up front. Worth the 50 mile drive.
Liverpool want you to go down and pay in person and then go back and collect. 50 miles driving. I'll stick with the helpful people thank you.
Glad the little 190 is serving you well.
I just buy Mann stuff from Euro now. It was nice to have a wedge of Mercedes receipts in the folder but it's not worth the bother anymore. Anything that is dealer only I order from Blackburn who will offer stuff in and discount it without asking for payment up front. Worth the 50 mile drive.
Liverpool want you to go down and pay in person and then go back and collect. 50 miles driving. I'll stick with the helpful people thank you.
Glad the little 190 is serving you well.
In fairness to MB Newcastle, they did my SL's annual service today and couldn't have been better. But then I only dealt with the people I know, the tech who has been doing these cars since they were new and the young woman who has been booking me in and out for ten years now.
The 190 has such a perfect record that it would be a shame not to have it MB serviced once a year. And the SL is the same: this was the 42nd MB Newcastle stamp to go in the book.
The 190 has such a perfect record that it would be a shame not to have it MB serviced once a year. And the SL is the same: this was the 42nd MB Newcastle stamp to go in the book.
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