Alfa Romeo 164 Twinspark Super
Discussion
Well, the 164 a blotted its copybook with its first actual breakdown and recovery in 6 years...
No, not a flat battery (the battery is in the boot for that weight balance, faithful thread devotees), just the use of headlights to confirm some suspicions once it got home.
Ever since I've owned it the starter has seemed a bit sluggish, but with not other twinspark 164 reference point I've just noted the part number of the motor for future reference and carried on.
The ignition key spring (from 'crank' back to 'on') has been sticking occasionally too: you can see where this is going.
My wife was taking the 164 for commuting duties (as her Saab 900 gearbox is at death's door) when the key didn't return properly, the starter didn't return correctly and wisps of smoke validated her decision to pull over and turn off the car.
The RAC recovered her from the A316 (sorry for anyone caught in the jam on Tuesday) and we gave things a quick prod in the pouring rain and darkness once back on the driveway.
With the car moving freely, all electrics checking out but no crank it was time for a Bosch starter, 0 001 108 048. My wife contacted our old friend Mick at Vintage Alfa in Northampton and he dug out a good unit. Now I'm supposed to be in a working car for Christmas, and with the Saab out of commission the wife is using the 75, so I really needed this one to work out...
Ah.
Not exactly 'refurbished' is it? But Mick has never let me down - if he says its working, its working, so I set about sanding the contacts and checking it yesterday in the porch while it drizzled.
With a shot from a jumper pack it gave a spin for freedom, and the Bendix gear working correctly. I carefully checked what to oil and what not to oil, and set it aside with some Bilt Hamber to tidy up the case.
Having checked a few forums a lot of people said it was easier to change from below...but perhaps that's on Spiders and 146s, as there's a fair bit of steering assemblage and such in the way. I thought I'd give it a go where it stood, from above, as I've got more experience taking all that stuff out!
The engine bay as we started the day - the starter is between the firewall and the block, under the plenum chamber at the back. Battery disconnected first!
Inlet and throttle out, various tentacles unclipped or set aside.
Don't worry it's a tough old cable:
There it is, the cantankerous fuming little lump... I can get to one 13mm bolt but nothing else...so more must come out!
Idle control out the way.
Plenum likewise after loosening my intake connectors, and attempting the dreaded 'blind' 17mm bolts that somehow hold it to the top bracket/mount.
Some forums and Alfa bods said I needed to also remove the plenum bracket, but that looks painful and I attempted it with good light, patience and plenty of extension sockets.
I also took a board and a cushion and put it on the red Alfa Romeo logo, as I needed to kneel on top of the engine.
The starter here is in the middle, the large gauge cables a flag of its potential.
Two 13mm bolts hold it in, one needs every socket extension you have against the block of the engine.
Bolts out, you can see a gap between it and the block!
Photo taken blind to check the connectors - 12mm spanner takes them off, and a spade connector for the solenoid (square connector at the top).
Minimum wigglage later, it was out!
I don't think that's an original 164 one, but it is the same spec. Hmm. Anyone know? You can see the bendix gear it stuck on the shaft, and nothing was budging it! Here it is compared to the replacement.
That was about an hour. The flywheel looked to be in good nick, and all cables I cleaned, sanded and put some electrical grease on. A cup of tea later and it was an hour to reassemble, as my knees started to whinge and I was very worried about aligning the bolts and starter correctly.
The famously annoying 17mm plenum bolts were about 15 minutes, with gently shaking fingertips. Ow.
But it all went back nicely, I took time to clean the intakes and butterfly valve, grease a few things and check/renew clamps that were past their best, and generally take a look around, as its most definitely Not Fun down the back there. Should have done the alternator, really...
Battery back on, key in... started on the first crank! Noticeably quieter too - it may have been the case that it was not returning properly for some time, but we'll see.
Importantly, the 164 is ready for the festive season, and its got plenty to be getting on with.
Technically, of course, it still hasn't ever broken down on ME, someone else was driving, you see, and ... (fade to Alfa related gibberish excuses)
No, not a flat battery (the battery is in the boot for that weight balance, faithful thread devotees), just the use of headlights to confirm some suspicions once it got home.
Ever since I've owned it the starter has seemed a bit sluggish, but with not other twinspark 164 reference point I've just noted the part number of the motor for future reference and carried on.
The ignition key spring (from 'crank' back to 'on') has been sticking occasionally too: you can see where this is going.
My wife was taking the 164 for commuting duties (as her Saab 900 gearbox is at death's door) when the key didn't return properly, the starter didn't return correctly and wisps of smoke validated her decision to pull over and turn off the car.
The RAC recovered her from the A316 (sorry for anyone caught in the jam on Tuesday) and we gave things a quick prod in the pouring rain and darkness once back on the driveway.
With the car moving freely, all electrics checking out but no crank it was time for a Bosch starter, 0 001 108 048. My wife contacted our old friend Mick at Vintage Alfa in Northampton and he dug out a good unit. Now I'm supposed to be in a working car for Christmas, and with the Saab out of commission the wife is using the 75, so I really needed this one to work out...
Ah.
Not exactly 'refurbished' is it? But Mick has never let me down - if he says its working, its working, so I set about sanding the contacts and checking it yesterday in the porch while it drizzled.
With a shot from a jumper pack it gave a spin for freedom, and the Bendix gear working correctly. I carefully checked what to oil and what not to oil, and set it aside with some Bilt Hamber to tidy up the case.
Having checked a few forums a lot of people said it was easier to change from below...but perhaps that's on Spiders and 146s, as there's a fair bit of steering assemblage and such in the way. I thought I'd give it a go where it stood, from above, as I've got more experience taking all that stuff out!
The engine bay as we started the day - the starter is between the firewall and the block, under the plenum chamber at the back. Battery disconnected first!
Inlet and throttle out, various tentacles unclipped or set aside.
Don't worry it's a tough old cable:
There it is, the cantankerous fuming little lump... I can get to one 13mm bolt but nothing else...so more must come out!
Idle control out the way.
Plenum likewise after loosening my intake connectors, and attempting the dreaded 'blind' 17mm bolts that somehow hold it to the top bracket/mount.
Some forums and Alfa bods said I needed to also remove the plenum bracket, but that looks painful and I attempted it with good light, patience and plenty of extension sockets.
I also took a board and a cushion and put it on the red Alfa Romeo logo, as I needed to kneel on top of the engine.
The starter here is in the middle, the large gauge cables a flag of its potential.
Two 13mm bolts hold it in, one needs every socket extension you have against the block of the engine.
Bolts out, you can see a gap between it and the block!
Photo taken blind to check the connectors - 12mm spanner takes them off, and a spade connector for the solenoid (square connector at the top).
Minimum wigglage later, it was out!
I don't think that's an original 164 one, but it is the same spec. Hmm. Anyone know? You can see the bendix gear it stuck on the shaft, and nothing was budging it! Here it is compared to the replacement.
That was about an hour. The flywheel looked to be in good nick, and all cables I cleaned, sanded and put some electrical grease on. A cup of tea later and it was an hour to reassemble, as my knees started to whinge and I was very worried about aligning the bolts and starter correctly.
The famously annoying 17mm plenum bolts were about 15 minutes, with gently shaking fingertips. Ow.
But it all went back nicely, I took time to clean the intakes and butterfly valve, grease a few things and check/renew clamps that were past their best, and generally take a look around, as its most definitely Not Fun down the back there. Should have done the alternator, really...
Battery back on, key in... started on the first crank! Noticeably quieter too - it may have been the case that it was not returning properly for some time, but we'll see.
Importantly, the 164 is ready for the festive season, and its got plenty to be getting on with.
Technically, of course, it still hasn't ever broken down on ME, someone else was driving, you see, and ... (fade to Alfa related gibberish excuses)
Yes not a bad track record - though I think infrequent use and not having to use it for commuting helps!
Made it to Christmas. The starter seems to be an improvement - it starts first crank and it MAY have been the long-standing rattling that I was convinced was the timing chain (for five years).
The Saab has sadly started to chew through its gearbox, and we're considering options with the Saab club and Nelson at NDS Saabs. Whichever way we go, I think it will be expensive and require a parsimonious January. Erk.
Trust the 172 is well - some say its a whole 8 better than a 164.
Made it to Christmas. The starter seems to be an improvement - it starts first crank and it MAY have been the long-standing rattling that I was convinced was the timing chain (for five years).
The Saab has sadly started to chew through its gearbox, and we're considering options with the Saab club and Nelson at NDS Saabs. Whichever way we go, I think it will be expensive and require a parsimonious January. Erk.
Trust the 172 is well - some say its a whole 8 better than a 164.
Edited by Spinakerr on Tuesday 24th December 18:24
Blanco92 said:
Here we see the obvious benefit of running a fleet of 3. I’ve always advocated it. And you appreciate it more when they all work simultaneously. You don’t get this enjoyment out of new lease cars...
Indeed, although to completely future-proof our turnkey requirements, another addition may be required.Following a successful festive season slog around various counties in all conditions, the 164 performed admirably and the starter motor is a quiet, reliable improvement. I even let someone else drive it.
Spending so much time in it revealed a few items that needed fettling, so yesterday with nothing else pressing and good weather, I got down to some tea-infused tinkering.
First up, the trim lifting from the glovebox got a dose of solvents and clamps to restore a Pininfarina line.
It might need another go, but it is better. Trust me.
Brake fluid was a little low, so topped it up. This might be the first time I've ever topped it up (other than when pipes and calipers were changed), so something to keep an eye on.
I removed an autumn's worth of leaves and biodetritus from the scuttle, and mucked out various gunge traps around the car (boot lid seal - what were they thinking?
One of the washer jets just lets loose into the sunroof rather than the screen.
For some reason it doesn't have directionable metal eyelet on that side, possibly lost or collapsed inside. The mechanism looks a tad complicated so I'm going to try and track down replacements. Anyone know if they were used on any other Alfas or Fiats?
Screenwash tank reservoir luckily exactly fits a bottletop as an instant funnel.
The alternator belt was also a bit squeaky, seemed a bit loose to me:
The belt is ok (I changed it a few years ago), so I just tightened it.
A top off of 10W40 and coolants and its all set. I do think I might have to order a radiator for it sooner rather than later, this incorrect rusty wreckage has been an eyesore for 6 years. Time for it to go!
Another year, another MOT for the 164. THis year had to be one of the cheapest - just a set of wiper blades after a good prodding all round.
Tester pointed out a few suspension components that were tired and a missing exhaust hanger, but they are all on the list this year once I get some ramp time. It probably needs a proper clean now after all that storming we've been having.
Tempted to take this one to Le Mans classic this year, as it's never been on the continent and I feel it's good to the stage of being properly reliable & sounds for long distances... could also be the only 164 in the car park!
Tester pointed out a few suspension components that were tired and a missing exhaust hanger, but they are all on the list this year once I get some ramp time. It probably needs a proper clean now after all that storming we've been having.
Tempted to take this one to Le Mans classic this year, as it's never been on the continent and I feel it's good to the stage of being properly reliable & sounds for long distances... could also be the only 164 in the car park!
Thanks - yes its on the A4, Rams Westgate. Alfacraft use them for all MOTs as they are fellow Alfa owners, and the place is no nonsense and classic friendly.
Glad you also had a good 164 experience - real shame there are so few left, but this one is getting treated to new parrs aplenty shortly.
Glad you also had a good 164 experience - real shame there are so few left, but this one is getting treated to new parrs aplenty shortly.
I had hoped spending a much larger amount of time at home would have afforded my a sliver of time to work on some 164 items, but sadly I've either been too busy or working on other bits of car in the household.
The 164 has been used once a week for picking up essentials, and the better weather is making me feel guilty for not giving it its annual spring bath & full spa treatment (clay bar facial joke to be added here).
I did check the fluid and noticed, to my immense annoyance, that the expansion tank was sitting below its level.
A quick poke around revealed the aftermarket radiator had finally given up at the bottom, and was gradually reducing itself to the consistency of aged mushroom fins at the bottom of the car.
I had earmarked this for replacement on the first inspection, as its a Valeo ill-fitting item, secured with cable ties and hope, but never got round to it. While I'm at it, I think the radiator support that bolts onto the front subframe looks like a wreck dive attraction, so that needs to go.
Of course, there's nothign suitable in the UK - plenty of sites and sellers listing incorrect items as 'suitable' and another two checked after an order placement and 'didn't actually have it'. Honestly, what's the point in an online marketplace with realtime stock checking if they don't actually use it?
Not willing to dwell on nasty low cost makes, I have secured an original item in Italy, for 100EUR, though sadly he can't ship anything at the moment.
So, car is still useable and I have a thought about where to find some brackets on a donor... this bank holiday beckons for a thorough clean and suspension inspection!
The 164 has been used once a week for picking up essentials, and the better weather is making me feel guilty for not giving it its annual spring bath & full spa treatment (clay bar facial joke to be added here).
I did check the fluid and noticed, to my immense annoyance, that the expansion tank was sitting below its level.
A quick poke around revealed the aftermarket radiator had finally given up at the bottom, and was gradually reducing itself to the consistency of aged mushroom fins at the bottom of the car.
I had earmarked this for replacement on the first inspection, as its a Valeo ill-fitting item, secured with cable ties and hope, but never got round to it. While I'm at it, I think the radiator support that bolts onto the front subframe looks like a wreck dive attraction, so that needs to go.
Of course, there's nothign suitable in the UK - plenty of sites and sellers listing incorrect items as 'suitable' and another two checked after an order placement and 'didn't actually have it'. Honestly, what's the point in an online marketplace with realtime stock checking if they don't actually use it?
Not willing to dwell on nasty low cost makes, I have secured an original item in Italy, for 100EUR, though sadly he can't ship anything at the moment.
So, car is still useable and I have a thought about where to find some brackets on a donor... this bank holiday beckons for a thorough clean and suspension inspection!
I know this barely warrants saying, but watch your coolant level like a hawk. My experience of "small leaks" is that they become "giant engine cooking leaks" at the most inopportune time.
I drive with all sorts of faults on a car but coolant leaks make me more nervous than anything short of dripping brake fluid.
I drive with all sorts of faults on a car but coolant leaks make me more nervous than anything short of dripping brake fluid.
Spinakerr said:
Another year, another MOT for the 164. THis year had to be one of the cheapest - just a set of wiper blades after a good prodding all round.
Sorry I didn't offer you the 164 fitting wipers I've had gathering dust for years sooner. I think they also fit the 33 you briefly had custodianship of. The Bosch ones are probably better and newer.No more leaks thus far, but the level does gradually drop. I'm using it for occasional runs to get food within a mile or two of home but nothing else.
Wipers are rarely replaced on the 164 - these Bosch ones seem pretty good and as the system is 'hidden' under the bonnet and therefore in shade I haven't had them expire in the sun as much as the other cars.
The 164 was looking particularly miserable after being parked under a large tree this week that acts as the latrine for the street's avian population, and in the midst of several building dust wind tunnels.
Today was supposed to be cloudy but dry, so ideal conditions for a day cleaning and polishing - alas I only got through the cleaning phase before sunlight became prevalent for the afternoon and the bodywork heated up, so I'll have to leave the clay/polish treatment to later this week. All the nastiness is purged from the bodywork though!
In lieu of gleeful paintwork restoration work I decided to poke around seals and muck traps, and was, erm, rewarded with the discovery of a blockage in the main scuttle.
Several handfuls later...
Contortionist antics and whinging did not solve the issue, not did a few gentle hoseblasts, so I decided to remove the intake for the heater on the driver's side, two 8mm bolts.
Oh dear. This was going to a swampy afternoon. I cleared as much as I could by hand, then enlisted the help of plastic scrapers and the gentle hose.
To clear the actual drains I used this flexible rod, really a giant spring with a tiny claw at the end that could also be used to pull on obstructions. Driver's side was easy-ish given the access...
That particular drain goes straight over the steering rack joint in RHD cars. Great...
Passenger side was much harder as I didn't want to remove the heater motor, wiring harness and relay assembly. Eventually got it cleared, and the scuttle completely dry in the afternoon sun.
I then cleaned the intake and anything within sight to minimise a reoccurance of this mucktastrophe
I also took the opportunity to remove a few cable ties from a previous visitor (service histor shows a replacement wiper assembly) with rubberised P clips, and all was well.
No rust in evidence in the area, thankfully, and I hope this prevents the 164 being added to the long list of cars that have been 'scuttled' in the past.
Right, where are those clay bars?
Wipers are rarely replaced on the 164 - these Bosch ones seem pretty good and as the system is 'hidden' under the bonnet and therefore in shade I haven't had them expire in the sun as much as the other cars.
The 164 was looking particularly miserable after being parked under a large tree this week that acts as the latrine for the street's avian population, and in the midst of several building dust wind tunnels.
Today was supposed to be cloudy but dry, so ideal conditions for a day cleaning and polishing - alas I only got through the cleaning phase before sunlight became prevalent for the afternoon and the bodywork heated up, so I'll have to leave the clay/polish treatment to later this week. All the nastiness is purged from the bodywork though!
In lieu of gleeful paintwork restoration work I decided to poke around seals and muck traps, and was, erm, rewarded with the discovery of a blockage in the main scuttle.
Several handfuls later...
Contortionist antics and whinging did not solve the issue, not did a few gentle hoseblasts, so I decided to remove the intake for the heater on the driver's side, two 8mm bolts.
Oh dear. This was going to a swampy afternoon. I cleared as much as I could by hand, then enlisted the help of plastic scrapers and the gentle hose.
To clear the actual drains I used this flexible rod, really a giant spring with a tiny claw at the end that could also be used to pull on obstructions. Driver's side was easy-ish given the access...
That particular drain goes straight over the steering rack joint in RHD cars. Great...
Passenger side was much harder as I didn't want to remove the heater motor, wiring harness and relay assembly. Eventually got it cleared, and the scuttle completely dry in the afternoon sun.
I then cleaned the intake and anything within sight to minimise a reoccurance of this mucktastrophe
I also took the opportunity to remove a few cable ties from a previous visitor (service histor shows a replacement wiper assembly) with rubberised P clips, and all was well.
No rust in evidence in the area, thankfully, and I hope this prevents the 164 being added to the long list of cars that have been 'scuttled' in the past.
Right, where are those clay bars?
On Friday I made the pilgrimage to an Alfa breaker that has supplied quite a lot of parts for the 164 over the years - including the wing and bumpers from much earlier in this thread.
I was keen to get a front radiator support bracket and generally poke any 164s that were about for my long list of parts.
Nice to be out and about amongst the Alfas...
Front grill on this one looks good...
Interior a bit shabby though.
In the end I secured two radiator brackets, neither of which are particularly nice but we'll see what happens after the application of various scrapers and chemicals, plus a replacement piece of grill I had wanted since purchasing the car, and headlight covers that hadn't disintegrated. I also spotted an 'aquascudo' or weathershield for the bottom of the radiator, and a large number of clips, bolts and minor trim bits that I knew were missing on mine. All in all, very reasonable and plenty to be getting on with!
I decided to tackle the front grill and headlight protectors as the weather was particularly conducive to tinkering upon my return, but I hadn't realised quite how scabby my grill bracket had got - should have picked one of those up as well!
Plenty of antagonistic spray later, the assembly came free, which included the bonnet latch.
Scraping mode activated.
Bilt Hamberisation.
Mk 2 chrome 'gold tooth' swapped over...
Finally! A front without a chipped tooth!
The headlight protectors also went on neatly, replacing the decomposing originals.
Much better - and other item included some missing bold and clips around the car, including the very 'shallow headed' bold that held part of the rear door locks on securely.
Next up, radiator and front crossmembers...
I was keen to get a front radiator support bracket and generally poke any 164s that were about for my long list of parts.
Nice to be out and about amongst the Alfas...
Front grill on this one looks good...
Interior a bit shabby though.
In the end I secured two radiator brackets, neither of which are particularly nice but we'll see what happens after the application of various scrapers and chemicals, plus a replacement piece of grill I had wanted since purchasing the car, and headlight covers that hadn't disintegrated. I also spotted an 'aquascudo' or weathershield for the bottom of the radiator, and a large number of clips, bolts and minor trim bits that I knew were missing on mine. All in all, very reasonable and plenty to be getting on with!
I decided to tackle the front grill and headlight protectors as the weather was particularly conducive to tinkering upon my return, but I hadn't realised quite how scabby my grill bracket had got - should have picked one of those up as well!
Plenty of antagonistic spray later, the assembly came free, which included the bonnet latch.
Scraping mode activated.
Bilt Hamberisation.
Mk 2 chrome 'gold tooth' swapped over...
Finally! A front without a chipped tooth!
The headlight protectors also went on neatly, replacing the decomposing originals.
Much better - and other item included some missing bold and clips around the car, including the very 'shallow headed' bold that held part of the rear door locks on securely.
Next up, radiator and front crossmembers...
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