1992 Peugeot 106 XSi - Strip, Respray, Rebuild OEM+
Discussion
Nice! - always good when they start well!
And much easier to keep the maintenance/development momentum up when the car is in running order as it feeds the enthusiasm I find.
I did 100 miles in my ITBd S2 rallye this morning (for my wellbeing) After not seeing much use this year and have remembered how much I value i place in it despite having the typical love/hate relationship you can get with these cars.
After the years you have had this one on the go a good drive in it will do wonders!
And much easier to keep the maintenance/development momentum up when the car is in running order as it feeds the enthusiasm I find.
I did 100 miles in my ITBd S2 rallye this morning (for my wellbeing) After not seeing much use this year and have remembered how much I value i place in it despite having the typical love/hate relationship you can get with these cars.
After the years you have had this one on the go a good drive in it will do wonders!
shedweller said:
Nice! - always good when they start well!
And much easier to keep the maintenance/development momentum up when the car is in running order as it feeds the enthusiasm I find.
I did 100 miles in my ITBd S2 rallye this morning (for my wellbeing) After not seeing much use this year and have remembered how much I value i place in it despite having the typical love/hate relationship you can get with these cars.
After the years you have had this one on the go a good drive in it will do wonders!
Just a short thread hijack, I adore itb’s especially on a Rallye but never fitted them to mine unfortunately. As I’m sure you’re acutely aware, they sound epic 😀And much easier to keep the maintenance/development momentum up when the car is in running order as it feeds the enthusiasm I find.
I did 100 miles in my ITBd S2 rallye this morning (for my wellbeing) After not seeing much use this year and have remembered how much I value i place in it despite having the typical love/hate relationship you can get with these cars.
After the years you have had this one on the go a good drive in it will do wonders!
Thanks chaps - all hijacks welcome!
So... Bad times!
Gave the engine block a flush through with water, with no thermostat, until it ran clear, plumbed the radiator in and fired it. Settled into a reasonable idle and revved like a beast again. Thermostat back in at this point.
Sadly, it was still cutting out after being revved and would struggle to hold a hot idle. Unplugged the water temp sensor and the revs raised a little and then dropped, so it seemed to be reading from there ok.
Unplugged the idle control valve and the revs raised to 4k-ish and then drop to 2k-ish and just kept doing that, so plugged it back in, where it struggled to hold 500rpm or so. That's definitely doing 'something'.
Decided some new/more V-Power was in order as the fuel gauge was still barely moving. No dice.
Then I noticed the cam cover started getting oily water droplets on it. Weird. Where could they be coming from?
Anyway - long idle, thermostat opens and it dies after some throttle again so pulled the radiator cap off and it chucks a load of water out. Pulled the oil cap off and lots of mayo and ugly looking oil:
Not good. No white or otherwise smoke from the exhaust though.
But back to the cam cover getting droplet, on revving they were coming out of the coil pack bolt hole, to the top in this pic. Yes, I need some bolts in there but how/why is that happening??? Crack in the head somewhere? Bolt overtightened and let the water into the cam seal/oil gallery?
Can see where I've wiped the cover and a load of oily water between the coil pack and the cam cover:
So, that head is coming back off. Very frustrating.
Is it simply a warped head or bad seal? Did I damage the gasket or not clean the faces well? Or is there something more sinister at play like a cracked liner or even cracked head. Possibly the latter with the weird leak at the coil pack.
Lucky I have a spare, 3rd engine, I guess! Maybe some machine shops are open now and could skim one (or two) and check 'em over. Clearly having a spare ready to go isn't going to be a bad thing, even if it's the small bearing roller head.
A waste of head bolts and gasket but better to know now before I think it's "done" .
Will pull the head back off tomorrow and see if there is anything to be seen. Might chuck it in the ultrasonic cleaner as that may make it easier to spot a crack, if it's oil and carbon free.
This "cup" engine has been nothing but trouble. I guess it's the perils of buying 2nd hand and not seeing and hearing them run.
Fingers crossed the head on the iron block/3rd engine is good but I have low hopes at this stage! Will consider pulling the whole thing and throwing it at a pro after the next go. At least then I can get the domed XSi pistons in and some sort of confirmation it's good to go.
Gaaaaaaaaaaah.
So... Bad times!
Gave the engine block a flush through with water, with no thermostat, until it ran clear, plumbed the radiator in and fired it. Settled into a reasonable idle and revved like a beast again. Thermostat back in at this point.
Sadly, it was still cutting out after being revved and would struggle to hold a hot idle. Unplugged the water temp sensor and the revs raised a little and then dropped, so it seemed to be reading from there ok.
Unplugged the idle control valve and the revs raised to 4k-ish and then drop to 2k-ish and just kept doing that, so plugged it back in, where it struggled to hold 500rpm or so. That's definitely doing 'something'.
Decided some new/more V-Power was in order as the fuel gauge was still barely moving. No dice.
Then I noticed the cam cover started getting oily water droplets on it. Weird. Where could they be coming from?
Anyway - long idle, thermostat opens and it dies after some throttle again so pulled the radiator cap off and it chucks a load of water out. Pulled the oil cap off and lots of mayo and ugly looking oil:
Not good. No white or otherwise smoke from the exhaust though.
But back to the cam cover getting droplet, on revving they were coming out of the coil pack bolt hole, to the top in this pic. Yes, I need some bolts in there but how/why is that happening??? Crack in the head somewhere? Bolt overtightened and let the water into the cam seal/oil gallery?
Can see where I've wiped the cover and a load of oily water between the coil pack and the cam cover:
So, that head is coming back off. Very frustrating.
Is it simply a warped head or bad seal? Did I damage the gasket or not clean the faces well? Or is there something more sinister at play like a cracked liner or even cracked head. Possibly the latter with the weird leak at the coil pack.
Lucky I have a spare, 3rd engine, I guess! Maybe some machine shops are open now and could skim one (or two) and check 'em over. Clearly having a spare ready to go isn't going to be a bad thing, even if it's the small bearing roller head.
A waste of head bolts and gasket but better to know now before I think it's "done" .
Will pull the head back off tomorrow and see if there is anything to be seen. Might chuck it in the ultrasonic cleaner as that may make it easier to spot a crack, if it's oil and carbon free.
This "cup" engine has been nothing but trouble. I guess it's the perils of buying 2nd hand and not seeing and hearing them run.
Fingers crossed the head on the iron block/3rd engine is good but I have low hopes at this stage! Will consider pulling the whole thing and throwing it at a pro after the next go. At least then I can get the domed XSi pistons in and some sort of confirmation it's good to go.
Gaaaaaaaaaaah.
Dom9,
Fantastic read. I remember you from my old 996 days. Haven’t logged on in some time but while the 996 has long gone a 993 has since replaced it and in a fit of madness I bought a one owner, Blaze Yellow 106 GTi about 4 years ago. It languished in the corner of a mates paint shop since and needed a full respray and rust treated in the usual places. I’ve built up an extensive parts/mods collection in the interim(much to the OH’s annoyance). With the Lockdown I gave myself a kick up the ar$e and put the pressure on myself to finish. Its back as of Wednesday and this thread has been just the medicine to get myself motivated. I don’t have the luxury of having a garage but think I’ll do most of it in the driveway. Fantastic work on your part and look forward to the next update.
Baz
Fantastic read. I remember you from my old 996 days. Haven’t logged on in some time but while the 996 has long gone a 993 has since replaced it and in a fit of madness I bought a one owner, Blaze Yellow 106 GTi about 4 years ago. It languished in the corner of a mates paint shop since and needed a full respray and rust treated in the usual places. I’ve built up an extensive parts/mods collection in the interim(much to the OH’s annoyance). With the Lockdown I gave myself a kick up the ar$e and put the pressure on myself to finish. Its back as of Wednesday and this thread has been just the medicine to get myself motivated. I don’t have the luxury of having a garage but think I’ll do most of it in the driveway. Fantastic work on your part and look forward to the next update.
Baz
Hey Baz - great to hear from you! Must be 11yrs since the 996 was built as I moved to Singapore and then Houston in 2010/2012! Time flies when you're having fun. Well, wasn't always fun but home since 2014, which is good!
A yellow GTi? Lovely! Definitely get after it! I'm not sure this thread will be providing much inspiration at the moment but once you've taken it apart and put it back together a dozen times; tasks are less daunting and it moves quite quickly.
Although I have the garage, it serves as a workshop so everything done on the car is done outside and I'd be too embarrassed to post what it looks like at the moment! Let's just say we have a lot of trees here!
I think tomorrow may be the day to whip the head back off. The back is a little sore and I can see SWMBO has gardening on the mind. Also don't want to leave a head off the car for days while I decide what to do or work out what's wrong. I guess I could drop the roller head back on to keep it 'sealed'.
A yellow GTi? Lovely! Definitely get after it! I'm not sure this thread will be providing much inspiration at the moment but once you've taken it apart and put it back together a dozen times; tasks are less daunting and it moves quite quickly.
Although I have the garage, it serves as a workshop so everything done on the car is done outside and I'd be too embarrassed to post what it looks like at the moment! Let's just say we have a lot of trees here!
I think tomorrow may be the day to whip the head back off. The back is a little sore and I can see SWMBO has gardening on the mind. Also don't want to leave a head off the car for days while I decide what to do or work out what's wrong. I guess I could drop the roller head back on to keep it 'sealed'.
if you are interested about 8v engine specs, my race engine was built by TI motorsport near Reading and there is a blog of the build including pics. I am not going to link it here, but it is relatively findable via google. 138 hp was the end result, on a 1600 S2 rallye block with S1 inlet manifold and MBE ecu.
As for your idling /rev's/ gunk problems have you checked that the block is not warped? It may not be the head that is the issue, or it may be both ...
As for your idling /rev's/ gunk problems have you checked that the block is not warped? It may not be the head that is the issue, or it may be both ...
73 Duchess said:
Dom, it must be 11 years, where does time go? I've got great gen from your thread. The first thing is give it a good oil service etc before tackling the hard bits. Delighted I stumbled upon this.
Baz
I want to say that the 996 was finished in '09/'10... a long time ago! Many cars have come and gone in that time... even a period without any cars! I'll keep going with this but it does seem like there's a fair chance this engine is scrap. An 8v built on a 1.6 16v bottom end sounds fun… I don't know why I love the idea of an 8v head so much, a 16v conversion is probably less painful than this!Baz
Dynion Araf Uchaf said:
if you are interested about 8v engine specs, my race engine was built by TI motorsport near Reading and there is a blog of the build including pics. I am not going to link it here, but it is relatively findable via google. 138 hp was the end result, on a 1600 S2 rallye block with S1 inlet manifold and MBE ecu.
As for your idling /rev's/ gunk problems have you checked that the block is not warped? It may not be the head that is the issue, or it may be both ...
138bhp is a good result without TBs I'd say. Will have a Google for that - thank you. I do have an iron block (original XSi) here, in case of warping, but it may be missing a few bits that may be hard to come by. Was really bought for the head, rods and pistons. As for your idling /rev's/ gunk problems have you checked that the block is not warped? It may not be the head that is the issue, or it may be both ...
Every chance the block in the car is warped as it had been run dry before I got it and I guess these blocks can be known for it. Perhaps the "Cup" block is ok and it would actually be my saviour but I have low hopes, with the state it was in internally.
Tempted to find a low miles 1.4 alloy block engine from maybe a later 206 and rebuild it with the XSi internals and spare head - can anyone remember when the bolt pattern changed back to 106 style? Or I assume a Quicksilver has the right bellhousing bolt pattern...?
A '92 1.4 XSi was on eBay for breaking with a few bits listed, including headlight looms... started talking to the seller to get a package together... and someone else buys the looms BIN and apparently will take the rest. He also had a running engine with it's loom etc, which i'd have taken for backup, which is why we were discussing it and I didn't hit the button.
Lesson learned - if there's something you need - hit BIN. Don't ask questions, just BIN. If they arrive f
ked, like at least one of my engines, chalk it up to experience. Oh well... only another few years to wait for parts to appear.
Lesson learned - if there's something you need - hit BIN. Don't ask questions, just BIN. If they arrive f
ked, like at least one of my engines, chalk it up to experience. Oh well... only another few years to wait for parts to appear.Kitchski said:
I'm glad to see it moving on again, but one thing......the fuel hose. NOOOOOO! That's the dodgy stuff (by the look of it!)
Talk to me, fella - replaced like for like, marked up correctly, etc. Will replace if a bad idea but much more robust than what came off.Could do without finishing it... and then it burning down and it's all coming apart again anyway...
Who am I kidding? It's never getting finished at this rate
Need to pull the head back off but have a big loss of enthusiasm at the moment
Ah, we've all been there!
Basically, if the hose has 'SAE J30R9' written on it, then remove it and bin it. It will last about 18months, and eventually leak. R9 is the correct grade for the time, technically, but it's this stuff in particular (unbranded, with bold white lettering) that causes grief.
Gates Barricade is the way to go (so far, with all the info I have - this could change again!) They do a high pressure and a low pressure spec. You may as well use high-pressure throughout, as you won't need that much of it.
Anything rubber these days is getting worse and worse. Case in point: Your droplink gaiters. Happens a lot, sadly. I've had that with certain brands, along with CV boots that perish after a couple of years. It's a real pain at the moment.
Basically, if the hose has 'SAE J30R9' written on it, then remove it and bin it. It will last about 18months, and eventually leak. R9 is the correct grade for the time, technically, but it's this stuff in particular (unbranded, with bold white lettering) that causes grief.
Gates Barricade is the way to go (so far, with all the info I have - this could change again!) They do a high pressure and a low pressure spec. You may as well use high-pressure throughout, as you won't need that much of it.
Anything rubber these days is getting worse and worse. Case in point: Your droplink gaiters. Happens a lot, sadly. I've had that with certain brands, along with CV boots that perish after a couple of years. It's a real pain at the moment.
The drop links and rod ends themselves seem fine (obviously, the car hasn't moved) but the perishing rubber is crazy!
Good advice on the fuel hose - thank you. It's only those short-ish lengths that have been replaced for now, so easily replaced again.
Have you got any ideas on the head - how the hell could it be spraying oily water from a coil pack bolt hole? Cylinder 1 seems to be the problem child.
Mild enthusiasm has returned after the eBay disappointment... So, will pull that head off the car, pull the 2nd spare XSi head off the spare iron block engine and strip and clean all 3 (incl. the roller head) in the ultrasonic bath, over the next few days, and see what I can see. Pics to come.
I had a bad feeling about this head when it went on. Tempted to then get all 3 skimmed/checked, build a new engine with the best one and put the others away (if the machine shop confirms they're good) for when the inevitable happens in the future.
I'll check to see if the liners are slightly proud of the block, when the head is off the car, and look for HG damage. Need to get to the source of the problem so I can avoid it next time.
There is a low miles 8v TU5 1.6 engine on eBay and another on FB marketplace... I am getting bad ideas if I am starting the engine build from scratch. Rallye S2+ engine spec may be nice...
Good advice on the fuel hose - thank you. It's only those short-ish lengths that have been replaced for now, so easily replaced again.
Have you got any ideas on the head - how the hell could it be spraying oily water from a coil pack bolt hole? Cylinder 1 seems to be the problem child.
Mild enthusiasm has returned after the eBay disappointment... So, will pull that head off the car, pull the 2nd spare XSi head off the spare iron block engine and strip and clean all 3 (incl. the roller head) in the ultrasonic bath, over the next few days, and see what I can see. Pics to come.
I had a bad feeling about this head when it went on. Tempted to then get all 3 skimmed/checked, build a new engine with the best one and put the others away (if the machine shop confirms they're good) for when the inevitable happens in the future.
I'll check to see if the liners are slightly proud of the block, when the head is off the car, and look for HG damage. Need to get to the source of the problem so I can avoid it next time.
There is a low miles 8v TU5 1.6 engine on eBay and another on FB marketplace... I am getting bad ideas if I am starting the engine build from scratch. Rallye S2+ engine spec may be nice...
Keep the faith! It’ll be worth it in the end. If it helps, you and this thread have given me the kick up the arse to start looking for a lock up to start a 106 build. House moves, work moves, life etc have all meant it’s been put to the back of the queue. Rallye and Gti values mean I’m going to start with the most solid boggo one I can find unless I stumble on an xsi cheap enough.
Ltjonmclane said:
Keep the faith! It’ll be worth it in the end. If it helps, you and this thread have given me the kick up the arse to start looking for a lock up to start a 106 build. House moves, work moves, life etc have all meant it’s been put to the back of the queue. Rallye and Gti values mean I’m going to start with the most solid boggo one I can find unless I stumble on an xsi cheap enough.
Well, if this inspires others to get a few on the road - it can't be a bad thing 
Right, this afternoon was practice head strip down - the old 'roller' head that was on the car when I got it, the 'Z04'.
Here is how we started the afternoon:
|https://thumbsnap.com/7umD8Lfj[/url]The plugs were first out... looking pretty sorry for themselves:
[url]Had a look down the "Cup" engine bores, since that's where the head had been resting. They look far from 'new':
[url]
|https://thumbsnap.com/xJ585zN5[/url][url]
|https://thumbsnap.com/1RcNxy87[/url]Z04 roller followers:
Cam oil cover thing - we can now see why oil might squirt out of that coil pack mounting hole. It needs a bolt in - it goes through the casting!
Thermostat cover you're probably sick of seeing by now:
Going quite smoothly until this point and then... bolt snapped! And I can't get it out at all!
How it looked stripped and then in the ultrasonic cleaner for a bit:
Pulled it out and thought I'd look at the size of the ports (they look tiny) Vs. an inlet gasket.
Lots of meat showing here (Z04 'roller' head):
Held the rubber gasket up to an XSi head, which has comparatively massive inlet ports:
So, good head stripping practice for an XSi head and now I have got some spare thermostat/oil covers.
The 'roller' head just needs go in the bin, I think. No real value to it for me with its tiny ports and roller cam. They're ten a penny second hand.
Other than the snapped bolt, which I guess may have been cross-threaded by a previous owner or from the factory... It wasn't too hard to strip down, thus - we move onto an XSi head, which I'll get skimmed once clean.
I also put the Clio V6 on charge... so not a wasted day! And I found out my valve spring compressor won't work for this head, so I need another!
Sorry mate, I didn't see your reply above.
I was going to say - some of those holes are plugged by the bolt!
I would do away with the roller head and go with the XSi one, personally. The XSi pistons in an alloy block *should* work, though I've never tried it (I may well, one day).
Stupid question, but are you just getting mayo in the oil (cutting out issue aside, which is almost certainly a different problem)? I'm assuming its running an oil/water heat exchanger? They can often leak internally and mix oil and coolant for fun.
I was going to say - some of those holes are plugged by the bolt!
I would do away with the roller head and go with the XSi one, personally. The XSi pistons in an alloy block *should* work, though I've never tried it (I may well, one day).
Stupid question, but are you just getting mayo in the oil (cutting out issue aside, which is almost certainly a different problem)? I'm assuming its running an oil/water heat exchanger? They can often leak internally and mix oil and coolant for fun.
Will re-write the response. This is very odd.
Not a problem at all - can't expect to have my hand held on a forum
I was quite pleased about finding that coil pack bolt hole goes through the casting (and is meant to), in some ways. But what squirted out was definitely not just oil, which you would expect. Need to order some more bolts of the right size. No wonder everyone rounds them - they must have some serious loctite.
The roller head will basically go in the bin...what has been seen cannot be unseen. I couldn't live with those tiny ports.
No oil/water heat exchanger, that I know of. I thought that was just a 16v rad top hose thing. Well, I say none but I guess I need to check the back of the block in case there is something like a 3-way split radiator hose lurking on the back side of the block.
I could just use the iron block motor (in the inlet port pic) in it's entirety (after a strip, check and any necessary refurb) but I am missing some annoying parts like the bolt on water inlet (outlet?) on the back of the block where the bottom radiator hose would connect (I presume - only have ally engines for reference). On that basis, an iron block from a 1.6 does tempt me if I am adding the weight anyway and I would buy one 'complete' after these lessons and add a refurbed XSi head.
Else, the simplest thing (unless I pull the head off the iron block and find that engine is internally good) is to steal the rods and pistons, get new liners for the "cup" engine and bench build that with new bearings etc. People seem to have run a similar combo without issue before. Saves aggressively skimming the XSi heads, which are not now very common, to get by with flat top pistons.
If I fail on my next efforts... Will probably farm it out anyway. If the engine never runs well... the project is failed!
I must say though - although I think the hot idle issue is compression related - it does seem odd I wasn't getting any steam out the exhaust. The oil is fully 'wet' so it could be a faulty gasket between an oil gallery hole and coolant hole but that's got to be unusual with a brand new gasket and those areas are not under much strain. I could have damaged it on installation though. The radiator did pressure up a little but I'd expect that as it probably wasn't fully bled, being the first fire up.
I don't think the oil level has changed much (i.e. all the water isn't hiding in there) and when I drained the rad yesterday, a lot of water came out, which says to me that the cylinder liner rubber seals are not leaking and the water didn't look oily, albeit it may be hard to tell. I'll the check the level again.
I think this all screams some sort of HG issue which is affecting compression and water/oil mixing. Or, is that a warped head/block maybe stopping the HG sealing. A head skim and iron block would probably cure all these things but it's more work for me
Dave Baker would tell me not to keep persevering with the ally block!
Hope that works... apologies if it reads oddly - was done with quote formatting etc.
Not a problem at all - can't expect to have my hand held on a forum
I was quite pleased about finding that coil pack bolt hole goes through the casting (and is meant to), in some ways. But what squirted out was definitely not just oil, which you would expect. Need to order some more bolts of the right size. No wonder everyone rounds them - they must have some serious loctite.
The roller head will basically go in the bin...what has been seen cannot be unseen. I couldn't live with those tiny ports.
No oil/water heat exchanger, that I know of. I thought that was just a 16v rad top hose thing. Well, I say none but I guess I need to check the back of the block in case there is something like a 3-way split radiator hose lurking on the back side of the block.
I could just use the iron block motor (in the inlet port pic) in it's entirety (after a strip, check and any necessary refurb) but I am missing some annoying parts like the bolt on water inlet (outlet?) on the back of the block where the bottom radiator hose would connect (I presume - only have ally engines for reference). On that basis, an iron block from a 1.6 does tempt me if I am adding the weight anyway and I would buy one 'complete' after these lessons and add a refurbed XSi head.
Else, the simplest thing (unless I pull the head off the iron block and find that engine is internally good) is to steal the rods and pistons, get new liners for the "cup" engine and bench build that with new bearings etc. People seem to have run a similar combo without issue before. Saves aggressively skimming the XSi heads, which are not now very common, to get by with flat top pistons.
If I fail on my next efforts... Will probably farm it out anyway. If the engine never runs well... the project is failed!
I must say though - although I think the hot idle issue is compression related - it does seem odd I wasn't getting any steam out the exhaust. The oil is fully 'wet' so it could be a faulty gasket between an oil gallery hole and coolant hole but that's got to be unusual with a brand new gasket and those areas are not under much strain. I could have damaged it on installation though. The radiator did pressure up a little but I'd expect that as it probably wasn't fully bled, being the first fire up.
I don't think the oil level has changed much (i.e. all the water isn't hiding in there) and when I drained the rad yesterday, a lot of water came out, which says to me that the cylinder liner rubber seals are not leaking and the water didn't look oily, albeit it may be hard to tell. I'll the check the level again.
I think this all screams some sort of HG issue which is affecting compression and water/oil mixing. Or, is that a warped head/block maybe stopping the HG sealing. A head skim and iron block would probably cure all these things but it's more work for me
Dave Baker would tell me not to keep persevering with the ally block!
Hope that works... apologies if it reads oddly - was done with quote formatting etc.
Unless I've missed something I'd personally just stick with the oe iron block xsi engine- atleast you know what you've got then. Hopefully the bores will be good then you can just get some new rings maybe do the crank bearings ect and maybe polish the head up and get new valve seals ect and it should go a treat! I spent loads on my old Rallye S1 engine on custom management ect but although it was good when it worked, the oem spec engine was just as nice in use and probably better on the road.
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