Pembleton mkII - Tin Tub
Discussion
Thanks! They're certainly good fun!
Well I've measured up the MGA wire wheel I have with the aforementioned adaptor. Over a standard 2cv wheel, it will increase the offset by 69mm (give or take a smidge).
This means I have the following options...
1- shorten the arm by around 50mm and use the mga wheel and adptor
2- lengthen the arm by 20mm and use a standard 2cv wheel.
3- offset the arm mount on the chassis so its 50mm further outboard and use the mga wire wheel and adaptor.
4- offset the arm mount on the chassis so its 20mm further inboard and use a standard 2cv rear wheel.
5- not use these arms on the rear at all and find a standard 2cv arm with 2cv wheel....
Either way, these adaptors and wheel is targeted for my other pembleton, so the front track in that will go up by about 140mm...
Well I've measured up the MGA wire wheel I have with the aforementioned adaptor. Over a standard 2cv wheel, it will increase the offset by 69mm (give or take a smidge).
This means I have the following options...
1- shorten the arm by around 50mm and use the mga wheel and adptor
2- lengthen the arm by 20mm and use a standard 2cv wheel.
3- offset the arm mount on the chassis so its 50mm further outboard and use the mga wire wheel and adaptor.
4- offset the arm mount on the chassis so its 20mm further inboard and use a standard 2cv rear wheel.
5- not use these arms on the rear at all and find a standard 2cv arm with 2cv wheel....
Either way, these adaptors and wheel is targeted for my other pembleton, so the front track in that will go up by about 140mm...
Ambleton said:
You are a bit. Although my current one is a barrel back, I plan tin tub to have a bullet tail, and the skirt will be quite a bit lower than the rising sides of the barrel style. You can see the differences between the two here....
You could combine the two to have a kicked up beetle back rear end, like the new Morgan EV3, which I think looks really cool! Harks back to the cars of the late '20s and early '30s.
A couple of weeks ago I went to the Brooklands museum. For anyone who hasn’t been, I’d thoroughly recommend a visit. Standing on the track and looking round actually gave me goosebumps.
I spoke to one of the volunteers there and I commented about how it was a shame that the track had deteriorated so much. He told me that the track was built before any heavy machinery, by blokes with buckets and spades, built in sections with shuttering and that it was pretty ropey even back in the day! I didn’t really believe him until I bought a book from the shop about the history of the place. This photo is from the 1920’s!! (OMG)
Whilst I was there I also got a lot of inspiration from the cars there. Some are relatively simple, some a relatively complex. The great thing about the Pembleton is that if you want to do something a bit different, you do! I struggle with the concept of other kit cars as once they are completed, they are just the same as all the other completed ones.
Here are a few inspirational ideas I had….
First up is the Napier Railton – this is the record holder at Brooklands and clocked a whopping average speed of 143mph in 1935.
Here’s a picture of it on its’ record run (yes, all four wheels are off the track)
It has no front brakes. The owner also took it to the salt flats over in the states and did an endurance 24hr speed run, where it averaged over 150mph over the full 24hrs in 1936 (including fuel and tyre stops). Yikes!
Anyway – whilst I was looking around this fine piece of craftsmanship and automotive god, I noticed that the barrelled bodywork had an extra riveted blister behind the drivers right hand shoulder, essentially squaring up the bodywork and allowing a higher back seat. I have noticed on the Pembleton that very occasionally I feel the seat back digging into my RH shoulder as it drops. This is something that I might try to incorporate into tin tub (when I get to that stage)
In the same room as the Napier Railton was another icon… A little Morgan three wheeler with the JAPrestwich Vtwin. I loved how ratty this was and was pleased that the museum had kept it in its oily rag condition. What I particularly liked about this was the offset seating. This means that the shoulders of the driver and passenger are offset, allowing the driver to saw at the wheel without worrying about inconveniencing the passenger. This seemed a relatively common feature on narrow cars of this era, but the offset was also carried into the scuttle at the front
In one of the adjoining rooms was this tiny little belly tank style racer, built by Wolseley. This was bare, unpolished aluminium and had a nice white/grey powdery appearance to it. In contrast, the brass fittings really stood out and gave it a special quality that I’ve not really seen elsewhere. It was just raw and honest.
Opposite the Napier Railton was this rather tall narrow Duesenberg Straight single seater. The bonnet straps on this were actually riveted to the inside of the bonnet, then fed out through slits/louvres to the exterior, before feeding through the buckles on the bodywork. I’ve not seen this treatment before but it works really well and should be very easy to replicate on the Pembleton.
The next one that I need to think a little more about is a blister at the front to raise up the Brooklands screens and offer a little more protection. There seems to be a broad spectrum of how this is done. This varies from the very basic “box” to a localised additional blister, right the way through to an asymmetric scuttle, favoured to the drivers side. See the selection below:
![](https://thumbsnap.com/sc/NkqbC3BU.jpg[/img]</a> <a href="https://thumbsnap.com/yIAxRg5D" Target="_blank" rel="nofollow">[img]https://thumbsnap.com/sc/yIAxRg5D.jpg)
I spoke to one of the volunteers there and I commented about how it was a shame that the track had deteriorated so much. He told me that the track was built before any heavy machinery, by blokes with buckets and spades, built in sections with shuttering and that it was pretty ropey even back in the day! I didn’t really believe him until I bought a book from the shop about the history of the place. This photo is from the 1920’s!! (OMG)
Whilst I was there I also got a lot of inspiration from the cars there. Some are relatively simple, some a relatively complex. The great thing about the Pembleton is that if you want to do something a bit different, you do! I struggle with the concept of other kit cars as once they are completed, they are just the same as all the other completed ones.
Here are a few inspirational ideas I had….
First up is the Napier Railton – this is the record holder at Brooklands and clocked a whopping average speed of 143mph in 1935.
Here’s a picture of it on its’ record run (yes, all four wheels are off the track)
It has no front brakes. The owner also took it to the salt flats over in the states and did an endurance 24hr speed run, where it averaged over 150mph over the full 24hrs in 1936 (including fuel and tyre stops). Yikes!
Anyway – whilst I was looking around this fine piece of craftsmanship and automotive god, I noticed that the barrelled bodywork had an extra riveted blister behind the drivers right hand shoulder, essentially squaring up the bodywork and allowing a higher back seat. I have noticed on the Pembleton that very occasionally I feel the seat back digging into my RH shoulder as it drops. This is something that I might try to incorporate into tin tub (when I get to that stage)
In the same room as the Napier Railton was another icon… A little Morgan three wheeler with the JAPrestwich Vtwin. I loved how ratty this was and was pleased that the museum had kept it in its oily rag condition. What I particularly liked about this was the offset seating. This means that the shoulders of the driver and passenger are offset, allowing the driver to saw at the wheel without worrying about inconveniencing the passenger. This seemed a relatively common feature on narrow cars of this era, but the offset was also carried into the scuttle at the front
In one of the adjoining rooms was this tiny little belly tank style racer, built by Wolseley. This was bare, unpolished aluminium and had a nice white/grey powdery appearance to it. In contrast, the brass fittings really stood out and gave it a special quality that I’ve not really seen elsewhere. It was just raw and honest.
Opposite the Napier Railton was this rather tall narrow Duesenberg Straight single seater. The bonnet straps on this were actually riveted to the inside of the bonnet, then fed out through slits/louvres to the exterior, before feeding through the buckles on the bodywork. I’ve not seen this treatment before but it works really well and should be very easy to replicate on the Pembleton.
The next one that I need to think a little more about is a blister at the front to raise up the Brooklands screens and offer a little more protection. There seems to be a broad spectrum of how this is done. This varies from the very basic “box” to a localised additional blister, right the way through to an asymmetric scuttle, favoured to the drivers side. See the selection below:
Edited by Ambleton on Wednesday 3rd May 21:20
Doofus said:
I'm pretty sure there's a Pembleton Brooklands with blisters behind the seats like that Napier Railton. I think it's Colin Wilson's, and somewhere on the web, he posted a detailed account of how he did it. I think he drew the blister, rather then riveted it.
Well recalled! A bit of light googling has revealed this...
That's the feller!
I know there's an article on the PAG website about forming blisters, and I think Colin had a website once about his own build. I may be mixing the two up though.
A Brooklands has been on my To Do list for several years now, and I'd like to think I'll build one eventually. I even have a file somewhere full of photos for bodywork inspiration, switchgear, gauges, body hardware and stuff. My plan was/is for a shortened rear frame and a boat tail. Easier to do on a 4-wheeler, of course
I know there's an article on the PAG website about forming blisters, and I think Colin had a website once about his own build. I may be mixing the two up though.
A Brooklands has been on my To Do list for several years now, and I'd like to think I'll build one eventually. I even have a file somewhere full of photos for bodywork inspiration, switchgear, gauges, body hardware and stuff. My plan was/is for a shortened rear frame and a boat tail. Easier to do on a 4-wheeler, of course
Just to keep you going, and 'cos I love the way it looks, here is a picture of my Dad's Morgan in about 1949. Bought not long after he was demobbed and came back from the Pacific... not too many new cars about at that point!
I always think that the most amazing thing about that picture is that there are no other cars in the road...
I always think that the most amazing thing about that picture is that there are no other cars in the road...
The Back End
A lot of 3 wheeler kit car manufacturers and Morgan offer the back of their models with what is usually called a beetle back. This is wide at the front and tapers to a bit of a rounded point and resembles the back of beetle (shock). Below is a jzr:
There are 2 “standard” options available when you build a Pembleton. The first, and most popular to date, is the barrel back. This is as per Victoria and is also the most simple to make. The back of the car is then finished off by a spare wheel as per some BSA 3 wheelers and some models of the original Morgan three wheeler. Morgan F4 shown below:
+5.jpg)
The other option is the bullet tail and has not been available from the factory for that long (probably 18 months to 2 years). This finishes off the tapered body with a spun dome with a flatted end as per below:
BUT…
We’re talking about Pembleton owners here, and if there’s something that can be built in a different way, it will be. See below for a selection of styles owners have gone for….
I love how Duncan has treated the rear lights on his silver surfer ii!
Upon reviewing all the options I think I’m going to try and get the rear end looking similar to the new EV Morgan as per suggested by BajaBill above! The aim will be a kind of hybrid between the bullet tail, and the rising skirt of the barrel back, exposing the rear wheel. This means that I definitely want to go for a rear wire wheel!
The reason for this is that with the bullet tail and a horizontal skirt, it can (in my opinion) look like an upturned loaf tin hovering off the floor. And when parked on grass, I think it looks particularly odd. See this image below of one at Stoneleigh this year (this is a really really nice Pembleton otherwise)
A lot of 3 wheeler kit car manufacturers and Morgan offer the back of their models with what is usually called a beetle back. This is wide at the front and tapers to a bit of a rounded point and resembles the back of beetle (shock). Below is a jzr:
There are 2 “standard” options available when you build a Pembleton. The first, and most popular to date, is the barrel back. This is as per Victoria and is also the most simple to make. The back of the car is then finished off by a spare wheel as per some BSA 3 wheelers and some models of the original Morgan three wheeler. Morgan F4 shown below:
The other option is the bullet tail and has not been available from the factory for that long (probably 18 months to 2 years). This finishes off the tapered body with a spun dome with a flatted end as per below:
BUT…
We’re talking about Pembleton owners here, and if there’s something that can be built in a different way, it will be. See below for a selection of styles owners have gone for….
I love how Duncan has treated the rear lights on his silver surfer ii!
Upon reviewing all the options I think I’m going to try and get the rear end looking similar to the new EV Morgan as per suggested by BajaBill above! The aim will be a kind of hybrid between the bullet tail, and the rising skirt of the barrel back, exposing the rear wheel. This means that I definitely want to go for a rear wire wheel!
The reason for this is that with the bullet tail and a horizontal skirt, it can (in my opinion) look like an upturned loaf tin hovering off the floor. And when parked on grass, I think it looks particularly odd. See this image below of one at Stoneleigh this year (this is a really really nice Pembleton otherwise)
Ambleton said:
BUT…
We’re talking about Pembleton owners here, and if there’s something that can be built in a different way, it will be. See below for a selection of styles owners have gone for….
...We’re talking about Pembleton owners here, and if there’s something that can be built in a different way, it will be. See below for a selection of styles owners have gone for….
Upon reviewing all the options I think I’m going to try and get the rear end looking similar to the new EV Morgan as per suggested by BajaBill above! The aim will be a kind of hybrid between the bullet tail, and the rising skirt of the barrel back, exposing the rear wheel. This means that I definitely want to go for a rear wire wheel!
I really like the style in this image - and agree the normal wheel looks odd there.
...but...
That's a much lower angle than anybody's normally going to be looking at it, and it looks like it's sitting quite high on the suspension. Adjust it down a bit, look from any angle other than lying on the ground, and I don't think it'll be an issue - especially with a wheel painted black to "hide" a bit more.
Think I'd be tempted to worry about the rest first, then revisit the rear wheel if it does look odd.
TooMany2cvs said:
I'm still not convinced...
I really like the style in this image - and agree the normal wheel looks odd there.
...but...
That's a much lower angle than anybody's normally going to be looking at it, and it looks like it's sitting quite high on the suspension. Adjust it down a bit, look from any angle other than lying on the ground, and I don't think it'll be an issue - especially with a wheel painted black to "hide" a bit more.
Heres a picture of Duncan's silver surfer I (brooklands) on the right, with silver surfer II (supersports) on the left. I really like the style in this image - and agree the normal wheel looks odd there.
...but...
That's a much lower angle than anybody's normally going to be looking at it, and it looks like it's sitting quite high on the suspension. Adjust it down a bit, look from any angle other than lying on the ground, and I don't think it'll be an issue - especially with a wheel painted black to "hide" a bit more.
I'm not sure on the underneath of the tail wrapping up so much, but its hard to fault the mans metalworking skills!
Ambleton said:
Heres a picture of Duncan's silver surfer I (brooklands) on the right, with silver surfer II (supersports) on the left.
I'm not sure on the underneath of the tail wrapping up so much, but its hard to fault the mans metalworking skills!
That really does look VERY high at the back.I'm not sure on the underneath of the tail wrapping up so much, but its hard to fault the mans metalworking skills!
The Finish?!
My other quandary is finish. The Polished aluminium is cool and does look good, but once polished is a right PITA to keep looking really fresh. Within a couple of days use, water droplets, hand prints, oil mist and general road crud means it needs re-doing!
As far as all my research shows so far, there’s no such thing as a lacquer for mirror polished aluminium either…
Any ideas what happens if you lacquer unpolished aluminium?? I assume the lacquer fills in all the little scratches and it just goes a flat gloss grey colour??
(I might need to do a sample piece)
Untreated aluminium takes a couple of years of neglect before it starts to look cool enough to pull it off (like the Wolseley pictured earlier). The other option is to paint it.
The other weekend I went to the VHRA Nationals at Santa Pod. It was a pretty low key affair and there wasn’t that many people there, but looking around the vehicles got me thinking about finishes. I’m still undecided if I want to try and cheat and make it look old and ratty, or minty fresh new build… It’s really difficult to pull off an old look when you’re being so careful during the build and using new or refurb components – is it a bit dishonest?
Anyway, there was this beautiful car (Ford Model A?) painted in a warm grey/mushroom colour and it looked great.
If I did paint the Pembleton, it would definitely be in this kind of colour and I think it would be set off nicely against the brass or copper nose and other brass fittings (lamps, mirrors etc), with a black interior, exhaust, cycle wings and wheels.
The colour I have found most similar (I think) for the moment is RAL 7032 Pebble Grey.
I might get a tester plaque done and see what it looks like!
My other quandary is finish. The Polished aluminium is cool and does look good, but once polished is a right PITA to keep looking really fresh. Within a couple of days use, water droplets, hand prints, oil mist and general road crud means it needs re-doing!
As far as all my research shows so far, there’s no such thing as a lacquer for mirror polished aluminium either…
Any ideas what happens if you lacquer unpolished aluminium?? I assume the lacquer fills in all the little scratches and it just goes a flat gloss grey colour??
(I might need to do a sample piece)Untreated aluminium takes a couple of years of neglect before it starts to look cool enough to pull it off (like the Wolseley pictured earlier). The other option is to paint it.
The other weekend I went to the VHRA Nationals at Santa Pod. It was a pretty low key affair and there wasn’t that many people there, but looking around the vehicles got me thinking about finishes. I’m still undecided if I want to try and cheat and make it look old and ratty, or minty fresh new build… It’s really difficult to pull off an old look when you’re being so careful during the build and using new or refurb components – is it a bit dishonest?
Anyway, there was this beautiful car (Ford Model A?) painted in a warm grey/mushroom colour and it looked great.
If I did paint the Pembleton, it would definitely be in this kind of colour and I think it would be set off nicely against the brass or copper nose and other brass fittings (lamps, mirrors etc), with a black interior, exhaust, cycle wings and wheels.
The colour I have found most similar (I think) for the moment is RAL 7032 Pebble Grey.
I might get a tester plaque done and see what it looks like!
Updates galore....
No real progress has been made on the build, however, my "bits buying" situation is getting worse. Fortunately I have a VERY understanding and supportive wife.
First news is regarding the moto guzzi engine I acquired for this car.... plans have changed.
I was debating wether to first change the engine in Victoria (my current Pembleton) so I could apply all my knowledge to the new build and get it cock on, trouble is, that means sourcing another engine, a potential nightmare.
Wind on to September and I had been looking to source another small block guzzi on the side for a little while, but everything was so expensive. Then a complete bike popped up on ebay. The right 750 carb engine, a later 1997 model with only 10k on the clock?! Surely not in my price bracket...
A cheeky offer was made, accepted and deposit sent. A van hired for the following friday night/sat morning and 450mile round trip to the lake district saw a genuinely excellent bike on my drive.
It breaks my heart to think I bought it for the sole purpose of stealing its motor, it really is in fantastic condition. Still, the price I paid was less than I would've got everything I required from a breakers yard with a s
t load more miles in an unknown state and I will probably be able to recoup about 40-50% on selling the rest of the bike.
I have also got a local machine shop to manufacture a couple of sets of adaptor plates to allow me to fit the small block guzzi to the 2cv gearbox/flywheel/clutch.
This now means that the original engine I bought, a 1991 750T engine with circa 45k under its belt, will instead be stripped and rebuilt for the current Pembleton - see that on it's own thread.... with the newer lower mileage engine for the new build, do I have a problem?
No real progress has been made on the build, however, my "bits buying" situation is getting worse. Fortunately I have a VERY understanding and supportive wife.
First news is regarding the moto guzzi engine I acquired for this car.... plans have changed.
I was debating wether to first change the engine in Victoria (my current Pembleton) so I could apply all my knowledge to the new build and get it cock on, trouble is, that means sourcing another engine, a potential nightmare.
Wind on to September and I had been looking to source another small block guzzi on the side for a little while, but everything was so expensive. Then a complete bike popped up on ebay. The right 750 carb engine, a later 1997 model with only 10k on the clock?! Surely not in my price bracket...
A cheeky offer was made, accepted and deposit sent. A van hired for the following friday night/sat morning and 450mile round trip to the lake district saw a genuinely excellent bike on my drive.
It breaks my heart to think I bought it for the sole purpose of stealing its motor, it really is in fantastic condition. Still, the price I paid was less than I would've got everything I required from a breakers yard with a s
t load more miles in an unknown state and I will probably be able to recoup about 40-50% on selling the rest of the bike.I have also got a local machine shop to manufacture a couple of sets of adaptor plates to allow me to fit the small block guzzi to the 2cv gearbox/flywheel/clutch.
This now means that the original engine I bought, a 1991 750T engine with circa 45k under its belt, will instead be stripped and rebuilt for the current Pembleton - see that on it's own thread.... with the newer lower mileage engine for the new build, do I have a problem?
I suppose its probably about high time for an update. For those of you following my other thread for Victoria Pembleton, you'll know I spent most of the autumn/winter rebuilding the bare (ish) guzzi engine I bought. With that engine now complete, but without Carbs, I needed to wait to pull the complete bike apart and get the carbs off. TinTub will have brand new carbs.
After spending a few weekends finishing of the garage and laying some flooring, I could finally get on and start stripping the bike.
It doesn't take long to go from this....
To this....
To this....
To this...
The thing that took the longest time on the strip down was the wiring. I wanted to know where everything came from and went, so I could pick out the charging and ignition systems without any damage at all.
Brilliantly it became apparent pretty early on that this bike was well looked after, and had been fitted with an Elektronik Sachse electronic ignition system, which is around £350.
Other than a visual tart up, I don't plan on pulling this engine apart too much as it's only done 10.6k miles and is sweet as a nut. The last engine had done around 45k miles....
After spending a few weekends finishing of the garage and laying some flooring, I could finally get on and start stripping the bike.
It doesn't take long to go from this....
To this....
To this....
To this...
The thing that took the longest time on the strip down was the wiring. I wanted to know where everything came from and went, so I could pick out the charging and ignition systems without any damage at all.
Brilliantly it became apparent pretty early on that this bike was well looked after, and had been fitted with an Elektronik Sachse electronic ignition system, which is around £350.
Other than a visual tart up, I don't plan on pulling this engine apart too much as it's only done 10.6k miles and is sweet as a nut. The last engine had done around 45k miles....
Gassing Station | Readers' Cars | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff