Pembleton mkII - Tin Tub
Discussion
On Sunday I had an early start...
I was up to yorkshire with the chassis for assistance in cutting and folding the floor, lower front and rear bulkhead.
I was to spend the day with Duncan, a serial pembleton builder, cycle car builder and artisan metalworker by trade. He has an expansive workshop with all the tools and equipment a man could dream of, plus the talent and experience to boot.
I loaded up the car on saturday night with a few bits and bobs he was buying off me, and the all important paper patterns. At (almost) he crack of dawn I got up and the wife and I hauled the chassis back onto the roof rack of the s
troen.
All tied down we set off at 7.30am. 2hrs 45 later we rolled up at stop off number one to collect a rebuilt steering rack I had purchased with the added grease points and new balls/cups etc. Another 30mins on the road and we rolled up outside Duncans workshop and unloaded the chassis. He had a sheet of ali on his bench ready and a couple of heavy duty trestle for the chassis to sit on at waist height.
First job was the floor. This has 2x curved flanges along the bottom that point down. This flange dictates the body shape down the side of the vehicle, so its important to get it right. We marked out the pattern on the aluminium and cut it out by hand using a mix of handed shears and tin snips. The curved cut edge has to be smooth and continuous.
Duncan assured me that hand cutting is the best way as you can control it more and gives a cleaner cut if you know what your doing. I didnt, but I was soon put right. Its tiring work on your hand if you're not used to it!
After dressing the edges Duncan then produced a very nice piece of equipment that follows the edge of the cut at a set distance, allowing you to apply pressure between a pair of roller bearings and create a flange. Being curved, this makes the whole panel go banana shaped, but a few minutes on the shrinker/stretcher straightened this out sweetly.
Time for a trial fit... with everything crossed, it nearly went in. A few tweaks here and there, opening up slots for chassis members etc and all was good. Panel done. You can see Duncans Austin Special Cycle car he's working on at the back of the workshop in this image
Next was rear lower bulkhead. This has a small portion of the floor, a slanted wall up, rearward of the seat back, in front of the fuel tank, boot floor, and wall at the rear of the boot in front of the rear wheel.
Again, we carefully marked out the paper pattern, cut this by hand and folded as per the instructions (another 2x curved flanges on this piece too). We offered it up to the chassis.
Bugger. Well this is well out!
We marked the centre of the car with a line and carefully measured. Some parts of the chassis aren't exactly plumb, this isn't a massive issue as you only see the outside. But the pattern was well out. The forward part of the panel was okay, but it was far too wide at the back and didn't run in line with the chassis. +60mm on one side and +40mm on the other.
After very carefully remarking and a bit of improvisation, we removed the panel and bashed out the folds we had put in, re-cut to the shape we wanted and set about re-instating the folds in the right place for the chassis. Here it is held in place with a few cleco pins.
All this mucking about wasted a good hour and a half, but I'm glad that this happened with Duncan at hand. If I was doing this at home, I wouldn't have known where to start the correction process!
We also did the lower front bulkhead, but no photos of this presently. Whilst I was cutting out the front bulkhead (my hands were screaming at this point), Duncan knocked up a foot blister for me. This sits by the throttle pedal and allows room for your foot.
More pictures to follow....
I was up to yorkshire with the chassis for assistance in cutting and folding the floor, lower front and rear bulkhead.
I was to spend the day with Duncan, a serial pembleton builder, cycle car builder and artisan metalworker by trade. He has an expansive workshop with all the tools and equipment a man could dream of, plus the talent and experience to boot.
I loaded up the car on saturday night with a few bits and bobs he was buying off me, and the all important paper patterns. At (almost) he crack of dawn I got up and the wife and I hauled the chassis back onto the roof rack of the s
troen.All tied down we set off at 7.30am. 2hrs 45 later we rolled up at stop off number one to collect a rebuilt steering rack I had purchased with the added grease points and new balls/cups etc. Another 30mins on the road and we rolled up outside Duncans workshop and unloaded the chassis. He had a sheet of ali on his bench ready and a couple of heavy duty trestle for the chassis to sit on at waist height.
First job was the floor. This has 2x curved flanges along the bottom that point down. This flange dictates the body shape down the side of the vehicle, so its important to get it right. We marked out the pattern on the aluminium and cut it out by hand using a mix of handed shears and tin snips. The curved cut edge has to be smooth and continuous.
Duncan assured me that hand cutting is the best way as you can control it more and gives a cleaner cut if you know what your doing. I didnt, but I was soon put right. Its tiring work on your hand if you're not used to it!
After dressing the edges Duncan then produced a very nice piece of equipment that follows the edge of the cut at a set distance, allowing you to apply pressure between a pair of roller bearings and create a flange. Being curved, this makes the whole panel go banana shaped, but a few minutes on the shrinker/stretcher straightened this out sweetly.
Time for a trial fit... with everything crossed, it nearly went in. A few tweaks here and there, opening up slots for chassis members etc and all was good. Panel done. You can see Duncans Austin Special Cycle car he's working on at the back of the workshop in this image
Next was rear lower bulkhead. This has a small portion of the floor, a slanted wall up, rearward of the seat back, in front of the fuel tank, boot floor, and wall at the rear of the boot in front of the rear wheel.
Again, we carefully marked out the paper pattern, cut this by hand and folded as per the instructions (another 2x curved flanges on this piece too). We offered it up to the chassis.
Bugger. Well this is well out!
We marked the centre of the car with a line and carefully measured. Some parts of the chassis aren't exactly plumb, this isn't a massive issue as you only see the outside. But the pattern was well out. The forward part of the panel was okay, but it was far too wide at the back and didn't run in line with the chassis. +60mm on one side and +40mm on the other.
After very carefully remarking and a bit of improvisation, we removed the panel and bashed out the folds we had put in, re-cut to the shape we wanted and set about re-instating the folds in the right place for the chassis. Here it is held in place with a few cleco pins.
All this mucking about wasted a good hour and a half, but I'm glad that this happened with Duncan at hand. If I was doing this at home, I wouldn't have known where to start the correction process!
We also did the lower front bulkhead, but no photos of this presently. Whilst I was cutting out the front bulkhead (my hands were screaming at this point), Duncan knocked up a foot blister for me. This sits by the throttle pedal and allows room for your foot.
More pictures to follow....
Whilst I was up in Yorkshire, I also collected my new wheels for the next build. These have only just been built using 19" rims, Austin 7 centres and thicker spokes. They only need painting now, bit boy are they glorious.
I also bought a pair of tyres for them that arrived today. I've gone for 350/19 Longstone 3block. These are the same size as would have been fitted on the a7 chummy, and the 3 block pattern gives a cool vintage look. They look more like bicycle tyres to be honest at 3.5inches wide. They're nice and tall too, so will gear the car up quite a bit.
I also bought a brand new rear wheel, 15" outer 48 spoked. I already have a splined adaptor for this. I need to trial fit, but I may need to get the rear arm shortened to ensure the rear wheel sits centrally.
I also bought a pair of tyres for them that arrived today. I've gone for 350/19 Longstone 3block. These are the same size as would have been fitted on the a7 chummy, and the 3 block pattern gives a cool vintage look. They look more like bicycle tyres to be honest at 3.5inches wide. They're nice and tall too, so will gear the car up quite a bit.
I also bought a brand new rear wheel, 15" outer 48 spoked. I already have a splined adaptor for this. I need to trial fit, but I may need to get the rear arm shortened to ensure the rear wheel sits centrally.
NERD ALERT!
I've been doing a bit more research into engine/gearbox/tyres over the last few days.
I know my engine and gearbox were originally from an Ami and matching - ie, not changed. Other than this i have little info to go on.
The engine plaque has AM2-M on it. This is good. This makes it a higher compression, higher power engine - not that I'm using it. This also means it is from one of two cars.
Option 1 -
Ami-6 from May 1968 onwards
Gear ratios:
1st - 5.603
2nd - 2.86
3rd - 1.923
4th - 1.316
Crown wheel and pinion - 3.875
Option 2 -
Ami-8 from March 1969 to December 1970
Gear ratios:
1st - 5.749
2nd - 2.935
3rd - 1.923
4th - 1.35
Crown wheel and pinion - 3.875
My new 19" front wheels and tyres give a rolling diameter of 669mm
This means theoretically cruising at 70mph in top gear is 4555rpm with an Ami-6 gearbox or 4670rpm with the Ami-8 gearbox.
To put this into comparison, my current Pembleton has a later 2cv6 standard gearbox and i'm currently running standard 2cv wheels with Toyo 310 15/135 tyres. these have a rolling diameter of 599mm. Giving a theoretical 5415rpm at 70mph. This means a reduction of nearly 900rpm at 70mph (if its the ami-6 box) - this should make for a much more comfortable cruise!
I've been doing a bit more research into engine/gearbox/tyres over the last few days.
I know my engine and gearbox were originally from an Ami and matching - ie, not changed. Other than this i have little info to go on.
The engine plaque has AM2-M on it. This is good. This makes it a higher compression, higher power engine - not that I'm using it. This also means it is from one of two cars.
Option 1 -
Ami-6 from May 1968 onwards
Gear ratios:
1st - 5.603
2nd - 2.86
3rd - 1.923
4th - 1.316
Crown wheel and pinion - 3.875
Option 2 -
Ami-8 from March 1969 to December 1970
Gear ratios:
1st - 5.749
2nd - 2.935
3rd - 1.923
4th - 1.35
Crown wheel and pinion - 3.875
My new 19" front wheels and tyres give a rolling diameter of 669mm
This means theoretically cruising at 70mph in top gear is 4555rpm with an Ami-6 gearbox or 4670rpm with the Ami-8 gearbox.
To put this into comparison, my current Pembleton has a later 2cv6 standard gearbox and i'm currently running standard 2cv wheels with Toyo 310 15/135 tyres. these have a rolling diameter of 599mm. Giving a theoretical 5415rpm at 70mph. This means a reduction of nearly 900rpm at 70mph (if its the ami-6 box) - this should make for a much more comfortable cruise!
Doofus said:
I might venture that 70mph in any Pembleton couldn't really be described as "comfortable" 
70 is fine on a dual carriageway, but earplugs are a must. There's a long downhill straight country lane near where I live. When you VMax+gravity it down there things start to get interesting in the current car, no idea what speed it is as the speedo bounces all over the shop.With the Guzzi engine revving to almost 7k rpm and the bigger wheels, theoretical top speed of TinTub will be about 105mph... It'll probably never see more than 80mph though
Exactly I can't think of a situation in modern life which could be described as 'comfprrable' and yet earplugs are required anyway
I have a screenless, roofless car (although it pulls 70 at a less than 2000rpm), and 70 on a dual carriageway may be easy, but I wouldn't necessarily call it 'comfortable'
I can't think of a situation in modern life which could be described as 'comfprrable' and yet earplugs are required anyway I have a screenless, roofless car (although it pulls 70 at a less than 2000rpm), and 70 on a dual carriageway may be easy, but I wouldn't necessarily call it 'comfortable'
Ambleton said:
NERD ALERT!
I've been doing a bit more research into engine/gearbox/tyres over the last few days.
I know my engine and gearbox were originally from an Ami and matching - ie, not changed. Other than this i have little info to go on.
The engine plaque has AM2-M on it. This is good. This makes it a higher compression, higher power engine - not that I'm using it. This also means it is from one of two cars.
Option 1 -
Ami-6 from May 1968 onwards
Gear ratios:
1st - 5.603
2nd - 2.86
3rd - 1.923
4th - 1.316
Crown wheel and pinion - 3.875
Option 2 -
Ami-8 from March 1969 to December 1970
Gear ratios:
1st - 5.749
2nd - 2.935
3rd - 1.923
4th - 1.35
Crown wheel and pinion - 3.875
Does the engine have an oil filter on it? If so, then it's later than that. I guess you're getting those from Cats' website?I've been doing a bit more research into engine/gearbox/tyres over the last few days.
I know my engine and gearbox were originally from an Ami and matching - ie, not changed. Other than this i have little info to go on.
The engine plaque has AM2-M on it. This is good. This makes it a higher compression, higher power engine - not that I'm using it. This also means it is from one of two cars.
Option 1 -
Ami-6 from May 1968 onwards
Gear ratios:
1st - 5.603
2nd - 2.86
3rd - 1.923
4th - 1.316
Crown wheel and pinion - 3.875
Option 2 -
Ami-8 from March 1969 to December 1970
Gear ratios:
1st - 5.749
2nd - 2.935
3rd - 1.923
4th - 1.35
Crown wheel and pinion - 3.875
Would you post a pic of the engine number plate? If you're going to obscure the number, leave the fourth digit visible.
I'm surprised there's a pre-filter M28 still kicking about, tbh. Won't be hard to figure the ratios out - tape on the input shaft, rotate the driveshaft stubs in gear, and count the rotations of each.
TooMany2cvs said:
Does the engine have an oil filter on it? If so, then it's later than that. I'm surprised if there's a pre-filter M28 still kicking about, tbh
It does not have an oil filter... does this make it more or less valuable? Rarer, but for good reason?TooMany2cvs said:
I guess you're getting those from Cats' website?
I am indeed - very handy websiteTooMany2cvs said:
Would you post a pic of the engine number plate? If you're going to obscure the number, leave the fourth digit visible.
TooMany2cvs said:
Won't be hard to figure the ratios out - tape on the input shaft, rotate the driveshaft stubs in gear, and count the rotations of each.
This is true, but I'm not really that fussed. I have 2 gearboxes, one standard late 2cv too just in case.Ambleton said:
It does not have an oil filter... does this make it more or less valuable? Rarer, but for good reason?
"Rarer - for good reason" would seem a good description.Ambleton said:
TooMany2cvs said:
Would you post a pic of the engine number plate? If you're going to obscure the number, leave the fourth digit visible.
Fourth digit is the year of manufacture within a decade, label colour is the decade. 1970s would be black as a rule of thumb, that sort of custardy-gold 1960s (red 1980s). But it's clearly not a 1960 engine, so I'm going to guess they hung about with the colour change. So an Ami 8 engine (far more likely than 6 in the UK anyway).
After going to see duncan, I realised that I'd need some more tools.
I've bought a crappy vice mounted english wheel (enough for 1.2ali but I don't think it'd deal with steel). A shrinker/stretcher, left/right tin snips and some straight tin shears. Various hammers/dollies etc.
I've had a quick go on some scraps taken from work. Its pretty cool what you can do with metal in a few mins!
Its very rough, but for 5 mins first attempt I'm quite pleased.
I've bought a crappy vice mounted english wheel (enough for 1.2ali but I don't think it'd deal with steel). A shrinker/stretcher, left/right tin snips and some straight tin shears. Various hammers/dollies etc.
I've had a quick go on some scraps taken from work. Its pretty cool what you can do with metal in a few mins!
Its very rough, but for 5 mins first attempt I'm quite pleased.
Progress has been slow to non-existant in recent weeks. We're stacked out at work, and I've been away for the last 2 weekends.
I have started to paint my wheels though. I've gone for a cherry red colour. I like the red wheels wheels that are going on victoria, but for the this one I wanted something a little less in your face. The colour is actually Citroen Wicked Red.
Cant wait to see what they look like all finished with the tyres on.
I have started to paint my wheels though. I've gone for a cherry red colour. I like the red wheels wheels that are going on victoria, but for the this one I wanted something a little less in your face. The colour is actually Citroen Wicked Red.
Cant wait to see what they look like all finished with the tyres on.
I thought this thread might be an appropriate place to ask for views on the Burton...
I've just stumbled across them and think they are stunning: http://www.burtoncar.com/?language=en&sort=2a .
Anyone have any experience?
I've just stumbled across them and think they are stunning: http://www.burtoncar.com/?language=en&sort=2a .
Anyone have any experience?
dxg said:
I thought this thread might be an appropriate place to ask for views on the Burton...
I've just stumbled across them and think they are stunning: http://www.burtoncar.com/?language=en&sort=2a .
Anyone have any experience?
There's a few in the UK. They apparently go together well - which you'd expect from Burton, who do a lot of re-manufactured and quite cleverly re-engineered 2cv grubby bits to a very high standard.I've just stumbled across them and think they are stunning: http://www.burtoncar.com/?language=en&sort=2a .
Anyone have any experience?
dxg said:
I thought this thread might be an appropriate place to ask for views on the Burton...
I've just stumbled across them and think they are stunning: http://www.burtoncar.com/?language=en&sort=2a .
Anyone have any experience?
As TooMany2cvs has said, they look like good quality kits and they're certainly pretty. I've just stumbled across them and think they are stunning: http://www.burtoncar.com/?language=en&sort=2a .
Anyone have any experience?
I've seen quite a few and never thought a single one looked cheap and nasty, which is rare for kit cars. I haven't looked over one in a lot of detail as they've never really been on my "list", I prefer a deficit in wheels.
If you are seriously considering building one, depending where you are in the country I could potentially put you in contact with an owner.
As ever, crusty cheap 2cv's are getting harder to find. One of the manufacturers (cant remember which one, possibly Lomax) used to get given free 2cvs as donors. They would break them down and put together complete donor packs on a pallet for £50 for people buying a kit at the same time, then sell the rest as spares or weigh in.
Unfortunately theres not a huge amount to update this time round.
Work got absolutely mental over the summer as the project I was working on was coming to an end. This finished in mid september, and I planned to take 4-6weeks off before looking for something else. This would give me some decent quality time in the garage. On my first week off I did all the little stty jobs in the house, laying shed base, putting new taps in, replacing cooker hob, fixing draws etc... so I could spend some solid uninterrupted time in the garage.
On the thursday of the first week I got a call from a company I'd worked at previously, saying they're desperate for people and could I start on monday... not one to turn down interesting work and very local I agreed....
In the meantime I did manage to rig up an electrolysis tank to reverse chrome plating.
I love the look of polished brass, and most of the parts I've bought are older car parts that are chrome over brass where the chrome is pitted and damaged.
I set up a small plastic bucket and filled it with water. Added caustic soda (available from any hardware store, its used for cleaning drains) to it and stirred it in.
I used a scrap strip of 3mm mild steel for the anode and connected it to the negative of a car battery charger. Then hung the item to be stripped from a bit of wire and connected that to the positive, making sure they don't touch.
Use thick steel wire to hold the item in the container (a wire coat hanger is perfect) as the process just eats any thin or copper wire and drops the part in the bucket. I made this mistake and had to fish my parts out a few times
The steel plate fizzes, indicating its working....
After about 20minutes you get something that looks like this....
After rinsing with a scouring pad...
And cleaning up on the wire wheel...
Ready for polishing... I have a few bits to do, so will post an image of them all together when done.
Work got absolutely mental over the summer as the project I was working on was coming to an end. This finished in mid september, and I planned to take 4-6weeks off before looking for something else. This would give me some decent quality time in the garage. On my first week off I did all the little s
tty jobs in the house, laying shed base, putting new taps in, replacing cooker hob, fixing draws etc... so I could spend some solid uninterrupted time in the garage.On the thursday of the first week I got a call from a company I'd worked at previously, saying they're desperate for people and could I start on monday... not one to turn down interesting work and very local I agreed....
In the meantime I did manage to rig up an electrolysis tank to reverse chrome plating.
I love the look of polished brass, and most of the parts I've bought are older car parts that are chrome over brass where the chrome is pitted and damaged.
I set up a small plastic bucket and filled it with water. Added caustic soda (available from any hardware store, its used for cleaning drains) to it and stirred it in.
I used a scrap strip of 3mm mild steel for the anode and connected it to the negative of a car battery charger. Then hung the item to be stripped from a bit of wire and connected that to the positive, making sure they don't touch.
Use thick steel wire to hold the item in the container (a wire coat hanger is perfect) as the process just eats any thin or copper wire and drops the part in the bucket. I made this mistake and had to fish my parts out a few times
The steel plate fizzes, indicating its working....
After about 20minutes you get something that looks like this....
After rinsing with a scouring pad...
And cleaning up on the wire wheel...
Ready for polishing... I have a few bits to do, so will post an image of them all together when done.
Edited by Ambleton on Sunday 14th October 09:23
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