Porsche 997 AWD V8 Turbo
Discussion
ATM said:
I have a vanilla engine'd 1998 996 c2 3.4 and an LS1 engine'd E46 built by Craig. The LS1 engine in my E46 has some form of hot cam and a few mods. It has lots of torque but doesnt like to rev. It is slightly flawed in the BMW as it runs the LS engine's gearbox and therefore the gearing is a little low really when joined to the e46 m3 diff. The engine lacks some finesse as you would probably expect. The throttle can feel a little on off too. The good news is to rebuild an LS engine costs peanuts. A full gasket set is less than £100. Mine has a standard LS7 clutch which feels very OEM and easy to use. These clutches again are not expensive and can handle 500+ bhp.
So I'm waffling a bit but basically what am I saying is the engine in a car has some character of its own. I would guess that an LS engine may be a little less refined than a porsche engine. Bear that in mind when you're thinking about cost and bhp.
The americans have been putting these engines in Porsche cars for years. They can even squeeze one into a 986 Boxster.
Finally people have started talking about resale value. This is going to cost you 10 - 20 grand to do. Obviously you will get nowhere near that back if you decide to sell. I've had people offering me £5000 for my e46 and they think they are doing me a favour.
ATM thanks so much for you comments I would have to agree with some of your comments regarding the LS. However that raw less refined power is what I love about the 997 V8T its so cool. So I'm waffling a bit but basically what am I saying is the engine in a car has some character of its own. I would guess that an LS engine may be a little less refined than a porsche engine. Bear that in mind when you're thinking about cost and bhp.
The americans have been putting these engines in Porsche cars for years. They can even squeeze one into a 986 Boxster.
Finally people have started talking about resale value. This is going to cost you 10 - 20 grand to do. Obviously you will get nowhere near that back if you decide to sell. I've had people offering me £5000 for my e46 and they think they are doing me a favour.
Would disagree on value as I have already had two offers well over cars value and build to part with it. This project was never about cost but about enjoying something different. I have also converted a number of cars over the years and made a good return on every single car. However every car I have sold has gone to a good owner that appreciated the cars they purchased. I have also been asked if I would build a Cayman for a customer. You can build a car for under 15K and that nothing compared to a Porsche with a similar power plant. When you consider 997 Turbo and GT3 a 997/996 LS V8 will be very cheap and so prices will be driven by what people will won't to pay. You will always get people that just don't get it and thats not a problem but lots of people will get it and will love driving them for the same reason I love driving mine.
Edited by DT8R on Friday 12th May 18:26
bodgerben said:
It's a great car OP and the LS is an absolute work of art, the two go together.
The Mrs has a 996T with a built engine and box that suits her down to the ground, lots of grunt and used everyday
Be wary of that front diff when putting serious power through it.
We should have put a LS into the Scimitar - TBH honest I couldn't afford one at the time so we put a 1UZFE in, so now I'm looking at a LS1 (carb'd) into the Dolly
It's great to see something a bit different and your car is just that
LS1 in a dolly awesome I had to Sprints as a younger man and wow would love to see a dolly with an LSThe Mrs has a 996T with a built engine and box that suits her down to the ground, lots of grunt and used everyday
Be wary of that front diff when putting serious power through it.
We should have put a LS into the Scimitar - TBH honest I couldn't afford one at the time so we put a 1UZFE in, so now I'm looking at a LS1 (carb'd) into the Dolly
It's great to see something a bit different and your car is just that
Rib said:
OMG an ls dolly would be amazing! I own one of Angus' previous projects and been following this build closely, be a completely different animal to the tvr but can't wait to see it finished, maybe even a cheeky drive eh goose? ????
Jony you are more than welcome to have a drive as long as I can drive the newer and improved Tamora LS7 blade7 said:
Amazing, How easy is it to find a knackered 997 and what would one cost typically ?
I always keep an eye on Ebay but also talk to the used Porsche specialist that's how I got mine. Mine was unloved but had such I high spec and was a lovely car just had not been looked after. The engine would have cost me 10k to rebuild back to standard spec and had other small problems that would have taken it to over 12K. But after spending under 15k on the LS3 turbo I have a lot more power and everything is brand new including air con unit.Here another financial benefit, if you needed one to build this car. If the engine in your project car isn't broken it has a real value some times 4 to 6k if healthy and if repairable £1500 to £2000. You can also sell all the ancillaries as you will not need them. This really help the bottom line of your project so keep that in mind.
Edited by DT8R on Saturday 13th May 11:34
sinbaddio said:
What a cracking build. Reminds me a little of the Fast n Loud two episodes where Arron put an LS in a shot 996 and raced Richard in (I think) a brand new 991 Turbo S. Clip below:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZyzIdQsj_A
Great job OP!
It was a LS3 996 up against a new 991 Turbo I think with ours being over 600 bhp Turbo LS3 AWD we will not struggle to show a different outcome.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZyzIdQsj_A
Great job OP!
blade7 said:
A quick look on ebay seems to show crate engines for £7-8k...
Lots of expensive engines on E bay look at PartsWorld Performance, based in Cannock brand new crated engines at good prices. I buy all my engines from them. My first ever engine was of E bay purchase and was then give to a so call expert who was in fact a real cowboy. Now I take all LS work to Dyno Torque but have also heard good things from Top Cats. Couple of things to consider when looking at the Porsche Ls conversion. The LS3 and LS7 are aluminium engines with Aluminium Blocks and heads. If you look at the LSx its a great engine but it has a Cast Iron block and aluminium heads. The supercharge LS crated engines from Parts World Performance don't fit in the 997.
Edited by DT8R on Thursday 18th May 10:05
Edited by DT8R on Thursday 18th May 10:19
stevieturbo said:
I'd been casually looking too, but never really found anything that cheap !
Something like this would make an ideal conversion, I wouldnt even be fussy whether 2wd or 4wd, although I believe the turbo cars have much stronger transmissions...which would be essential unless they too can be bought at sensible money
I have done the research and you don't need the Turbo as long as you keep the power sensible. Ultima use these boxes up to 700bhp and over 700bhp they use the turbo box so as you can see its not an issue. In the states lots of C2 with Ls3 conversions but I don't think there are any C4's. I will keep posting as mine has 600bhp and hoping that will be OK.Something like this would make an ideal conversion, I wouldnt even be fussy whether 2wd or 4wd, although I believe the turbo cars have much stronger transmissions...which would be essential unless they too can be bought at sensible money
J4CKO said:
Are the crate engines pretty much a standalone engine, i.e. they come with ECO and all they need, so you could add a fuel supply and fire it up without anything else ?
What are they like to integrate with the recipient cars electronics ?
The engine are basic with the standard injection system and you will need to by ancillaries kit which Parts World Performance supply. You will need basic wiring. Most modern cars us CANBUS system so its electronic control units that communicate with applications within the car. You can us this to get the LS3 to communicate with the Porsche and use a lot of existing systems and gauges. By giving the car to Emerald before we started work they were able to identify the Canbus systems signals. If you us someone suggest doing the same but why re-invent the wheel.What are they like to integrate with the recipient cars electronics ?
croyde said:
Love this.
A workmate of mine is building an old BMW Z3 with an LS engine.
CroydeA workmate of mine is building an old BMW Z3 with an LS engine.
Dyno Torque have done a number of Z3, and recently a E46 M3 with a LS3 great job Ash Borrows is the owner and is a PHer. But currently well worth a look is the new Z4 they are doing for Lee at VAD. Its stunning and well worth investigation.
When building your Porsche one major fact needs to be considered. The 996 is a lot easer to build than the 997 because most modern cars us a Canbus system. What is a Controller Area Network (CAN, also known as CAN Bus).
Its Automotive Controller Area Network System (Canbus) is a vehicle bus standard designed to allow electronic control units and devices to communicate with each other in applications without a host computer. As an alternative to conventional multi-wire looms, CAN Bus allows various electronic components (such as: electronic control units, microcontrollers, devices, sensors, actuators and other electronic components throughout the vehicle) to communicate on a single or dual-wire network data bus up to 1 Mb/s.
Why is this important because it must not be underestimated the work that is required. The building of the car is strait forward enough for very skilled hands. But the development of the CanBus is a detailed bit of work that must not be underestimated. Dyno Torque understand this and it must be the one part of the build to needs close consideration. One of the most challenging parts of this build was understand what everything does. Dyno Torque look to replicate as much of the existing signals and understand what to do with the redundant ones is part of the detail that Dyno Torque provide.
The end result is a car instrument system that looks completely normal and lots of the primary systems continue to work as normal. This is an big achievement when you consider the engine is no longer a Porsche 3.6 but an american LS3 6.2 litre V8. Yet everything works as it should.
Its Automotive Controller Area Network System (Canbus) is a vehicle bus standard designed to allow electronic control units and devices to communicate with each other in applications without a host computer. As an alternative to conventional multi-wire looms, CAN Bus allows various electronic components (such as: electronic control units, microcontrollers, devices, sensors, actuators and other electronic components throughout the vehicle) to communicate on a single or dual-wire network data bus up to 1 Mb/s.
Why is this important because it must not be underestimated the work that is required. The building of the car is strait forward enough for very skilled hands. But the development of the CanBus is a detailed bit of work that must not be underestimated. Dyno Torque understand this and it must be the one part of the build to needs close consideration. One of the most challenging parts of this build was understand what everything does. Dyno Torque look to replicate as much of the existing signals and understand what to do with the redundant ones is part of the detail that Dyno Torque provide.
The end result is a car instrument system that looks completely normal and lots of the primary systems continue to work as normal. This is an big achievement when you consider the engine is no longer a Porsche 3.6 but an american LS3 6.2 litre V8. Yet everything works as it should.
Seek said:
DT8R said:
Why is this important because it must not be underestimated the work that is required. The building of the car is strait forward enough for very skilled hands. But the development of the CanBus is a detailed bit of work that must not be underestimated. Dyno Torque understand this and it must be the one part of the build to needs close consideration. One of the most challenging parts of this build was understand what everything does. Dyno Torque look to replicate as much of the existing signals and understand what to do with the redundant ones is part of the detail that Dyno Torque provide.
Apologies... I may have overlooked it, but which company would you recommend to undertake this project?
:Truth is there are other companies that could provide this service but at what price I have no idea. The company I use I have used for a number of projects and Craig has never let me down. His organisation is not flash but the quality is first class.
J4CKO said:
Would love to work in this area, work in IT and love cars, would be perfect, wonder how you get into that line of work ?
Jacko, Its alone an idea but maybe speak to the company like Top Cats, Dyno Torque or some big players like Prodrive- motorsport who actively recreate. They maybe able to point you in a direction that could be very positive.S11Steve said:
It's great to see you so immersed in this project Angus - this is the excitable and slightly geeky Angus that I first met all those years ago when the LS Griffith was still in its infancy at Ian's place!
And when it first got out to stretch it's legs to Chatsworth you had to be passenger, but we did do this -
https://youtu.be/0hwMi3gfzKk
Hi Steve, A great day buddy I remember it fondly and still battling the Brain Tumours and still here doing what I love.And when it first got out to stretch it's legs to Chatsworth you had to be passenger, but we did do this -
https://youtu.be/0hwMi3gfzKk
Koje said:
I love stuff like this. So great to see there are people that think the same way as me but have the balls, knowledge and £££ to do it.
Thanks to everyone for your feedback and for visiting the build page.I am always on hand to help and I have other parts to this project to I want to do including other LS Porsche projects.
I will health permitting start a new car project in October.
Edited by DT8R on Saturday 3rd June 03:32
cramorra said:
Whilst I congratulate the OP to thde fabulous achievement and great effort (and I d like to hear the noise and go for a spin) I think the market will always value an original car more (especially with a quality rebuild) Porsche prices as crazy as they are it ll be only a short while till 996 and 997s catch up (think off what happened to 964 over thelast years) and a nonoriginal car will never be up there (ok singer you are exceptional) imo
The question should be what Porsche model because once a C4 or C2 have the conversion its no longer JUST a C2 or C4 performance. The redeveloped cars are more in line with the Turbo's and will be clearly quicker than GT3's even a tunned one. If you go with the LS3 Turbo's or LS7 then without spending a fortune with Porsche specialist, you will have 600BHP+. You do that to a 997 Turbo and thats going to be constant rebuilds and you have got to have very very deep pockets. You do the same to a GT3 and you are talking about spends money that will make your eye's water. So going into LS tunned Porsche 997/996 or Cayman makes real sense and will do when your friend at the pub with his GT3 RS has mortgage the house sent the wife out to work and still has got near to you with horse power or Torque. This alone will make real sense and I think that will have an impact on values.Here's the final consideration take my car a 997 C4 LS3 Turbo and nothing is stressed or over stressed. So when your LS3 Turbo has gone round the clock and is still going strong will you care that its not a GT3 or a Turbo. Every time you have a service and you are smiling because you don't feel like your wallet bruised at the service cost will you care its not a Turbo especially when that Turbo owner at the lights was upset you could stay with him without trying.
Edited by DT8R on Sunday 4th June 17:54
Notanotherturbo said:
Doing something similar with a different rear engine car myself at the moment. No turbo just a 502 BHP LS3 in a Renault Alpine GTA. Transaxle was test fitted last week and should be running in about a month. Similar scenario, V8 is virtually identical in every dimension as the PRV. Used a strengthened UN1 gearbox and adaptor (this transaxle has been used plenty of times in V8 kit cars) Car has been completely mechanically restored with 300mm 4 pots all round and Spax suspension developed by JL Engineering, uprated cooling. Bare stats should be 502 BHP, weight somewhere between 1200 and 1300kg so will be around 400 bhp per ton :0)
Nicely done mateDear Readers
Sorry I have not posted recently as I have been out of action recovering from yet another stroke. Hoping it will not be to long before I am back on my feet again and driving the DT8. Lots has happened since my last posting to the car not least that we removed the turbo until such time that II have saved enough pocket money to do a proper job. The car currently has a shade under 500bhp which is more than enough to scary most passengers. and the car is shortly due to be featured in a magazine details to follow.
Sorry I have not posted recently as I have been out of action recovering from yet another stroke. Hoping it will not be to long before I am back on my feet again and driving the DT8. Lots has happened since my last posting to the car not least that we removed the turbo until such time that II have saved enough pocket money to do a proper job. The car currently has a shade under 500bhp which is more than enough to scary most passengers. and the car is shortly due to be featured in a magazine details to follow.
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