BMW 2002Tii (ish)

[scottos]

Plenty to update on and hopefully I’ll get get round to it soon but these arrived yesterday! Chuffed to finally have a set!

[scottos]

Thanks and I’m not too sure yet, I’ll have to cross that bridge when I come to it haha

It should be relatively simple to map for a pro I guess, it’s not a complicated engine as such. I might end up having to get it done twice though, once for a running in map then back for a proper one.

[scottos]

The Bandit said:

Fantastic, love reading build threads like this.
I'm lucky enough to have someone do my build (Lotus Elise S1) for me due to wife/kids/work but it's a long process as I'm sure you know!
Keep the updates coming and good luck

Certainly a long process yes! Thanks for the kind words. It must be kind of nice to be in that position if you've somewhere you can trust. This car is a once in a life time build where i'll be nigh on skinting myself to build it but its now or never sort of thing and i've got to do as much as i can myself to relieve the pressure. I've got some good people around me too for a second opinion/ extra help or even as a lead in the departments im not all too sure on (gearbox and wiring for example). Plenty updates incoming!

[scottos]

Quite a bit to update! I’ll just go in order of my photo uploads so please bear with me.

First off, alternator looked terrible against the bottom end. The problem with getting everything gleaming is that once you start you almost cant stop, anywhere!







Had it apart for inspection and just a clean-up really, all looked fine.





Starter motor got the same treatment:



New washer bottle, refurbed the bracket (you’ll notice an Ed China theme going on by now, satin black everything!)





A few missing bits and bobs showed up, knurled keepers for the clocks, these were missing and the threaded rod bent out the way. Also got the flared grommet for the fuel breather hardline that exits the floor of the boot.








One day I noticed that the centre tie rod was knackered so I removed this, I ended up then removing the steering box and steering idler and refurbished all these parts too.



Steering idler before (with the steering box):





After with new seals and gaskets:



Same with the steering box and all fitted:









New tie rod has also shown up so ill get this fitted as soon as!

Cheers,

Scott

[scottos]

Next up has been getting the gearbox ready for its rebuild, this has been a long road but its ready to go back together now, hopefully this will happen in the coming weeks! As I’ve mentioned before, my dream 2002 in my head has always had a dogleg 5 speed so hopefully this one will work out for me!

I’ve basically ended up cleaning everything as much as I can, from the state it was in internally it’s resulted in a complete u-turn. I’ve swapped all the old gears out for ‘as new’ condition ones as well as all new baulk rings. You can see from the pics below these were all well over due. This box will end up as nearly new condition, other than 5th gear which has a little pitting but there are no input shafts/5th gears available anywhere for them.

Old and new:





Dead baulk ring:



All done:


Scrap gears and rings:


Main case:


From the clutch end:



All together:





Reinforced release bearing lever all Ed China’d:





These also got the treatment and new seals fitted. They are finsihed in Satin black but i cant find a picture.



The headwork has been going well and its nearly finished. First off it was soda blasted and guides removed:







Valves cleaned up:









The seat surface on the valves will be redone when the 3 angle seats are ground.

Then the port modifications took place:









You can see in the picture below the port before/ after and the way the guide has been changed:



The guides are also the later style with the smaller stem seals. The advantage of these is that when running dual valve springs theres no risk of the inner spring catching. My current cam choice doesn’t need dual valve springs but its good to know for later down the line. I’ll be running Schrick single springs for now.

I needed to work out the piston intruder volume so the combustion chambers could be done:



Further to this the head should be finished this week and I can get it built back up. Im beyond excited for this part. I’ve wanted a head done by the guy who owns the competition engine builders where I’ve assisted for 14 years (half my life!) for nearly all of those 14 years so I’m really chuffed its finally happening.

The other great development, which I’ve mentioned above, is that the Jenvey Throttle bodies have arrived. I’ve also wanted a set of these for as long as I can remember too!

Bare bodies with trumpets and manifold:



Parts:



Alloy fuel rail:



Cut down and chamfered:





Fitted:



Underslung linkage installed:





Awesomely neat FPR:





And that’s about it for now, I’ve got more bits on the way or at least ordered so can crack on, still loads to do but I’m confident for a spring start!

Thanks for reading,

Scott.

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e30m3Mark said:

Lovely.

Will you be getting longer trumpets? (not that the ones you have aren't great) I recall seeing some period pics where they use a longer version.

It's going to be quite a car once finished. What sort of power are you hoping for? I would guess at a strong 170 - 175 brake, which will certainly liven things up.

Thanks Mark. Will likely see what everything fits like first. If i go longer i wont be able to use a proper filter i dont think but if theres space i might take a couple of sets with varying lengths when it gets mapped. My vision has always had long open intakes but practically i dont think it would be a good idea with the amount i intend to drive it it may be that ill end up with different maps in the long run, changeable by a hidden switch, the finer detail is still grey!

Short term, (from running as is - 2 years ish) i'll be happy with anything over 150 in my head and rev it as high as the cam will still make power but long term ill be going for that 200hp figure and keeping it 2.0. I'll be going s14 rods and some custom pistons and at the same time fit a wilder cam, double valve springs and see if i can get some 1 piece valves made in standard diameter but wasted stem. If i go for around 11.5CR i think this would be manageable yet still drive nice on the roads.

As you're doing your m3, i dont think the project will ever finish and there's no other car i would really want enough to sell it i dont think so it'll always be getting developed. Hopefully we'll meet next year if the car gets up and running!

bucks said:

That is a thing of beauty.

Envious of you building the engine too. I wouldn't know where to start but would still love to have a go

Thanks buddy, it's a relatively simple engine so it's been a good one to build, i'll be nervous for starting and running it in though!

[scottos]

I believe that red one recently sold on ebay!

The only time ive spent with mine on the road was with it a couple of feet behind me on a flat bed haha hopefully that can change next year!

Lots of updates but struggling for any time to upload. Spent a fortune on the thing now and its rather daunting/ stressful at points when you stand back and take it all in and realise the engine and box are still in a load of bits and there's still more things to figure out and more outlay (i know, boo hoo, first world problems and all that!)

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E24man said:

I have great memories of my lhd Verona red 1973 2002tii. I ran it from about 1987 for about 8 years during which time it was indecently quick for a 15 year car against the new hot hatches of the era.

It was fully chromed up and had the 13" steel wheels with old man style chrome hub-caps giving a sleeper appearance against the newer cars of the time.

As well as the inevitable rust around the car a leaking injector led to bore-wash and an engine rebuild but the renewed engine pulled better than ever and I never suffered any other problems with the kugelfischer injection system with just regular synchonising of the pump and butterfly to keep it in tune.

Sadly and inevitably it succumbed to rust and I sold LPA321W to some hopeful lads who had plans to restore it once again... I don't think it ever saw the roads again.

Awesome, thanks for sharing the story! I hope to make many great memories with this car once done. The day I viewed it and the day I picked it up will be the first two I think!

I’m hoping with the modern injection/ ecu the engine should remain reliable, although either way will be a test of the first engine I have fully built myself! I’m waiting on a couple more parts before I can finish the head and check valve/ piston clearance. If it all goes to plan it should be a real fit engine.

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e30m3Mark said:

M10 are brilliant engines. Tough as old boots and they go on for ever with regular oil changes. The quickest tii I ever owned had a flowed head and Schrick cam fitted. It always just felt strong and would leave my pals ti spec 02 for dead. It easily pulled to the redline in 5th and an indicated 120+ mph. Unfortunately it blew a headgasket and the independent garage I used back then, somehow 'mislaid' the head. Yes, really! It was never the same after that.

I think the M10 is certainly one of the best 4 pots ever built.

Am looking forward to seeing this once it's finished.

Thanks Mark, we are certainly on the same wavelength it seems. Quite a few people have questioned me staying with the M10 but reading up on the history of the engine and what it did for BMW there was never another consideration for me. Built M10 and 235 gearbox is the dream and I’m chasing it!

Sounds like you’ve had some bad luck with garages over the years, a properly worked head and camshaft isn’t cheap either as you will obviously know!

I did a bit of a trial build on mine today to make sure it’ll time up with the thinner cometic head gasket, the skimmed head and decked block. All seemed fine, certainly needed the vernier even for standard timing marks! Just waiting on a small hone to arrive so I can sort the steel rockers out and get it all together. Just hoping I have enough clearance between valve and piston in the next trial build.

Hoping to make it to one of the Wales drive outs once it’s done so sure we’ll meet. Would love a look around your m3 too!

[scottos]

Well a bit of an update, done quite a bit more!

I bought a new boot seal and ordered some 3m weatherstrip sealant from USA, this stuff doesnt lift the paint up like other products. Sadly whoever has fitted the previous one has used a product where the paint had reacted in some places so there was some localised touching up to do! Awful job all in all but im glad its now done!





I also bought a few more bits and bobs to progress me along the project, there is some element of 'whilst its in bits' as always!

e30 m3 starter motor, massve weight and space saving:





Seen fitted, along with the stainless water bypass pipe (i've got a black full silicone hose kit too):



New engine and gearbox mounts, these are a 'street/track' set-up:



Adjustable roll bars:



The rear mounts in the standard location but the front uses an adapter to move the pivot point a lot closer:



This picture hshows how much closer, the old bar was as far forward in the engine bay as you can get:



Comparison of the old and new rear:



Front going on:



Fitted:









Rear:



ECU also turned up:



Now for the engine schenanigans! My head has been finished, awesome awesome piece of work and im over the moon with it!



The inlet manifold for the itb's has been port matched:







On with Building it:











The steel rockers needed a small bit of honing out to fit on the rocker shafts:





All together:





Went for the trial build with my thinner cometic gasket:















Then this happened:



Not good! I hadnt done a drop valve measurement before building the head so knocked the rocker shafts back out so i could remove the valves out of number 4 and do one. I basically have between 3-3.3mm valve clearance at TDC, my camshaft is timed at 3.7mm lift TDC, you can see the problem there!

So a silver steel rod at 5/16th's was turned to a point in a lathe so i could centre pop my pistons, along with the valve to piston measurement i can then get the valve reliefs cut into the pistons. Bearing in mind this is supposed to be the 'simple' engine to get the car on the road quicker, its proving rather more fussy than intended! The end result should be worth it though, with more compression than i first thought it should make good power.

Centre pop in the guide, marking the piston:





and pistons back out!





Couple of other bits and pieces:

New radiator v's old, its the same dimensions but has a higher cooling rate, this can be seen by the increased amount of cooling channels



Also made the breather baffle on the rocker cover a removable item:





A little bit of a rushed update but im trying to keep the thread up to date!

I'll end with a pic of the full car as a reminder, looking at it from this angle keeps me going haha



Thanks,

Scott

[scottos]

Breadvan72 said:

Fabby!

Thanks!

Legacywr said:

I’m going to buy this when you’re done

haha I doubt i'd be able to part with it once its done!

e30m3Mark said:

So nicely put together. I wish I had the skills to rebuild an engine myself. I don't though and I would end up with an expensive pile of scrap.

There should be a support group for cases of ''whilst it's in bits'itis''.

Cheers Mark, like i say i wish we were closer and id certainly be willing to lend a hand on yours! And agree with such a support group, i think we'd be there every week without fail!

Mark Benson said:

Bummer about the valve clearances but at least you found out on a trial fit and can get the work done - shows you're doing it right and in the grand scheme of things it's only a small setback.

I so want to see (and hear!) on the road this when you're done....

Thanks, thats what i've said to people as well, it's only a couple a couple of extra hours and better caught now! Me too, i cant wait.

Brum_Brum said:

Fantastic keep up the good work!,. bet you can't wait to hear that engine sing?

Thanks, certainly cant, still feels a long way away but im sure it'll sharp come round.

skylarking808 said:

Simply lovely looking old school Beemer engine.

That is going to be one fine ride when finished OP.

Cheers buddy!

_Neal_ said:

Such a good thread - great work OP.

Thanks Neal

dumab said:

That engine won’t sing, it’ll snort!!

I'm hoping it'll do a bit of both!

The Bandit said:

Trumpet p0rn!

Agreed!

[scottos]

avenger286 said:

Brilliant work and still my favourite BMW on pH.

Thanks very much, flattered, high praise indeed!

[scottos]

Well the pistons have been done!





Comparison compared to my modelling clay exercise:





Should do the trick! Picking them up tomorrow when i pop in to help out so ill get a better look at them then. Ill be reweighing them to double check and also remeasuring the intruder volume to work out the CR, hopefully still 10.5+.

Thanks,

Scott

[scottos]

Quick trial assembly over the weekend to ensure the pockets were in the right place, i can confirm the machining was done perfect!

Sequence of testing below:

Piston in:



Valves blued:





Dropped and tested:







Valve drop check, bearing in mind previous clearance was 3-3.3mm and valve lift at TDC is 3.7mm, plenty of clearance now it seems! This should leave me clear for 10 degrees either side too, which is sometimes worse than the clearance at TDC.



Next step will be to measure the intruder volume again and work out the CR, hopefully tonight if i get some garage time!

Thanks,

Scott

[scottos]

Breadvan72 said:

PORNO

haha cheers

e30m3Mark said:

Nice work as ever.

I've spent the weekend lusting after this….

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BMW-1800-NEUE-KLASSE-CA...

I'd drop the ride height a bit, retro fit some Scheel seats, Petri steering wheel and a carpet, then just enjoy it.

Cheers Mark, didnt get much time on it this weekend though. Was at Cadwell all yesterday with my friend testing in his 911 racer, i stuck a pic up on instagram if you have me on there, awesome thing!

Im not an NK man but its a lovely car, had a good look when it first went up on the forum! It looks like it could be converted into a period racer pretty easy too! He's selling another NK, a standard one with some rust issues but that thing is lovely!

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e30m3Mark said:

I was never really a NK guy either. I had a malaga one back in the early 90's that I bought for £50. Nobody wanted them back then. I saw the works classic transporter a couple of years back and the pair of untouched 1800tisa BMW had discovered gathering dust in a factory corner, that they then race prepared. I was smitten. The absolute lack of rust is a big bonus on the eBay car but it would mean selling the M3. I just love the thought of doing some historic hill climbs and track days in an NK but parting with the E30 would be very hard.

So what wheels have you had in mind? I love the wide 13'' Minilites and ballon type race tyre look on an 02. 8 or 9 x 13's and some Hoosiers would be so cool.

Thats the look i was wanting but my car has a rear disc conversion that wont allow 13's sadly! I am going for 15" minilites instead with 50 profile track tyres, just on talking with them at the moment, sorting offsets and what not.

After spending sunday in my mates 964 hillclimb car i think im going to bite the bullet and get some top suspension now, if im going t cut up some Tii legs i may as well do it properly! Started approaching a couple of companies.

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The Crack Fox said:

Great thread, I am learning from your posts and appreciate the detail you go in to. Thanks.

Here, have a smiley thing -

Great stuff and thanks, i'm glad its helping in some way, this has been a great car for me to put theory into practice, it's relatively simple

e30m3Mark said:

Is there enough of the tii leg used to warrant not just using regular 02 legs instead? (it's been a while and am a bit rusty on 02 specs)

With it being a Tii i'd like to keep the Tii legs, its got new m535i calipers and e21 discs/ hubs on too. I'd have to swap all this out if i used the smaller stub axle regular '02 strut housings. I think i'll be making use of the larger stub axle on the Tii struts long term anyway, especially with the low offset wheels it'll be running.

[scottos]

jaacck said:

love this build, awesome stuff.

Cheers matey!

Justin S said:

Looks great , but not sure if this is correct, but I would round the sharp edges where the machining is done on the pistons, as the thinner the material , I was lead to believe may cause a hot spot on the piston. Yes, it may affect CR, or minimal change. I may be talking rubbish, but sure it was in a Vizard book or something.

Thanks and yep, hot spots on sharp edges will ignite the mixture before the spark but everything has been radiused, no sharp edges. It might be hard to pick up from the pictures.

99PBATR said:

Hats off to you sir. What a beautiful machine. My fave BMW without a doubt. An old friend of mine was a BMW 2002 nut and a had not one but 3 2002's and also a 1602? convertible (which I think he still has) He had a 2002Ti Turbo (drool) and also an exceptionally rare Alpina 2002 which he took 10 years to convince the German owner to sell it to him. I was lucky enough to have driven both. I actually preferred the Alpina one. I've added a few old pics of the 2002Ti Turbo he had.

I smiled at your comment about once you start sorting stuff and getting it looking nice you can't stop...ha ha been there done that. It is worth it though as it will be unique and not another one like it.

Thats 2002 Turbo looks awesome, that'll be 100k worth of car now! Same goes with the Alpina, if not more That seems to be the consensus that the Tii was more of a drivers car than the turbo. Im hoping with my warmed up engine ill be somewhere near turbo power without the turbo!

You're right there and its not so bad when the cars appreciating as you go along, im hoping it will be a keeper though so irrelevant!

Thanks,

Scott

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e30m3Mark said:

I always used to lust after the turbo but they're actually a bit temperamental when it comes to real world use. The Alpina A4S always seemed a better car to me anyway. That said, the turbo is still a terrific car and I love the period styling. Car SOS did an awesome job on the one they restored if you haven't seen it yet? It's available 'on demand' from National Geographic channel I believe?

I'd love a proper look around a turbo one, like you say its the whole styling of the thing! First time i saw one was when i first got my Saturday job at the engine builders i still go to now (some 14 years ago), i didnt have a clue what it was but i just thought it looked awesome, even more so than our genuine group a 635csi we were testing with!

We still look after the 635csi and i'd maybe stick them about par on the lust scale, if not the 635 leading it slightly now!

I've caught that episode a couple of times now, the turn around is great to see, especially for the old boy who never would have driven the thing ever again! Heart warming stuff.

[scottos]

Well, back to it! I built the head back up as i'd knocked the rocker shafts back out slightly to remove the valves from No4:



I installed No4 piston with just the compression ring in place and some modelling clay in the relief pockets, fitted the head gasket and placed the head onto the short motor. I then nipped it down ever so slightly, fitted the timing chain/ cam sprocket and timed it up.





I then turned it over a number of times and disassembled it to see how much clearance i now had. I cut the clay in half down the relief so i could measure the thickness.



As you can see, there's plenty of clearance now, some 1.75mm on the exhaust and 3mm on the inlet.

Now that this had been confirmed i moved onto doing a final static compression ratio check. We had it up to just under 11:1 before the pockets but obviously the clearance wasnt there to run it like this. This exercise was to see how the pockets had affected the CR. Set up as below:





Fag packet (selection box lid that was meant for a friends child haha) calculations:



As you may be able to make out, we've gone from 10.94:1 down to 10.46:1. This is up from the standard 10:1 high compression mahle pistons of the day and whilst not as high as i'd have liked, it's still up there enough where i'd hope to make some decent gains from it.

This brings me onto camshafts, I've never compared cam shaft profiles before but being this is a relatively mild engine i went for what i thought was a relatively mild camshaft. I've recently compared this against a Schrick 304 (Schrick 292 was too mild for what i wanted really) and found that my cam has more lift at TDC, more overall lift and what appears to be a longer effective duration (above 1mm lift and back down, the way catcams measure it). The higher compression ratio the better for a camshaft such as this so it's probably for the best we've managed to get it up a bit!

If i ran a Schrick 304 it appears i could have got away without the pockets but would have had to have used the standard thickness head gasket, i've not done the calcs but the CR would likely have been lower than what i've achieved with a camshaft that wouldnt perform as well. So all in all it appears this has been a worthwhile exercise and whilst not being as simple as i intended i'm hoping it will all be for the better of the engine.

Hope i've not bored you to death with this one but thanks for reading!

Scott