Sensible family daily wagon - Mercedes Benz S211 E500
Discussion
I spoke with my indy today... both front and rear brake discs are fine, but the two right discs are slightly warped. However, the SBC is reporting within tolerance...
He was baffled, so spoke with an old colleague who was the the MB trainer for SBCs when my The Man was a Master Tech at Epsom... he suggested that the braided brake hoses may have collapsed internally -- previously considered to not be an issue as they are visually correct. The plan is to replace the front and rear brake hoses (perhaps on both sides... it didn't occur to me to clarify but now that I'm typing, it seem the sensible thing to do) then slice open the replaced hoses for inspection and verification.
As for the ride height, he has been going by the oscilliscope but I urged him to look at the camber settings when on the hunter alignment machine... those with long memories will recall that the inability to adjust the camber within tolerances at the standard ride height is what indicated that the base setting had inadvertantly been set according to the 'raised' ride height setting -- I hope that makes sense. It was determined by raising the ride height and looking at the camber -- they were within tolerance (the raised ride height allowed for a more upright camber which then fell within tolerance). He said that rather than setting the calibration for the oscilliscope between 1.5 to 2 degrees, he'd set it for -1.5 degrees and appraise it. It just looks too high as it sits, to my (by now, very experienced) eyes.
The other items are a dodgy pdc sensor, a blocked washer jet and the summer alloys and tyres are to be fitted. I'll have an update on Friday.
He was baffled, so spoke with an old colleague who was the the MB trainer for SBCs when my The Man was a Master Tech at Epsom... he suggested that the braided brake hoses may have collapsed internally -- previously considered to not be an issue as they are visually correct. The plan is to replace the front and rear brake hoses (perhaps on both sides... it didn't occur to me to clarify but now that I'm typing, it seem the sensible thing to do) then slice open the replaced hoses for inspection and verification.
As for the ride height, he has been going by the oscilliscope but I urged him to look at the camber settings when on the hunter alignment machine... those with long memories will recall that the inability to adjust the camber within tolerances at the standard ride height is what indicated that the base setting had inadvertantly been set according to the 'raised' ride height setting -- I hope that makes sense. It was determined by raising the ride height and looking at the camber -- they were within tolerance (the raised ride height allowed for a more upright camber which then fell within tolerance). He said that rather than setting the calibration for the oscilliscope between 1.5 to 2 degrees, he'd set it for -1.5 degrees and appraise it. It just looks too high as it sits, to my (by now, very experienced) eyes.
The other items are a dodgy pdc sensor, a blocked washer jet and the summer alloys and tyres are to be fitted. I'll have an update on Friday.
bolidemichael said:
I spoke with my indy today... both front and rear brake discs are fine, but the two right discs are slightly warped. However, the SBC is reporting within tolerance...
He was baffled, so spoke with an old colleague who was the the MB trainer for SBCs when my The Man was a Master Tech at Epsom... he suggested that the braided brake hoses may have collapsed internally -- previously considered to not be an issue as they are visually correct. The plan is to replace the front and rear brake hoses (perhaps on both sides... it didn't occur to me to clarify but now that I'm typing, it seem the sensible thing to do) then slice open the replaced hoses for inspection and verification.
As for the ride height, he has been going by the oscilliscope but I urged him to look at the camber settings when on the hunter alignment machine... those with long memories will recall that the inability to adjust the camber within tolerances at the standard ride height is what indicated that the base setting had inadvertantly been set according to the 'raised' ride height setting -- I hope that makes sense. It was determined by raising the ride height and looking at the camber -- they were within tolerance (the raised ride height allowed for a more upright camber which then fell within tolerance). He said that rather than setting the calibration for the oscilliscope between 1.5 to 2 degrees, he'd set it for -1.5 degrees and appraise it. It just looks too high as it sits, to my (by now, very experienced) eyes.
The other items are a dodgy pdc sensor, a blocked washer jet and the summer alloys and tyres are to be fitted. I'll have an update on Friday.
Is replacing brake lines fairly labour labour intensive? I gather on many cars it certainly can be. I hope for your wallet's sake it isn't too bad. I'm surprised someone like you allowed for such a "bodge" RE the ride height and alignment stuff? Remember to keep a ballast in the driver's seat He was baffled, so spoke with an old colleague who was the the MB trainer for SBCs when my The Man was a Master Tech at Epsom... he suggested that the braided brake hoses may have collapsed internally -- previously considered to not be an issue as they are visually correct. The plan is to replace the front and rear brake hoses (perhaps on both sides... it didn't occur to me to clarify but now that I'm typing, it seem the sensible thing to do) then slice open the replaced hoses for inspection and verification.
As for the ride height, he has been going by the oscilliscope but I urged him to look at the camber settings when on the hunter alignment machine... those with long memories will recall that the inability to adjust the camber within tolerances at the standard ride height is what indicated that the base setting had inadvertantly been set according to the 'raised' ride height setting -- I hope that makes sense. It was determined by raising the ride height and looking at the camber -- they were within tolerance (the raised ride height allowed for a more upright camber which then fell within tolerance). He said that rather than setting the calibration for the oscilliscope between 1.5 to 2 degrees, he'd set it for -1.5 degrees and appraise it. It just looks too high as it sits, to my (by now, very experienced) eyes.
The other items are a dodgy pdc sensor, a blocked washer jet and the summer alloys and tyres are to be fitted. I'll have an update on Friday.
Of course, I don't focus on such fripperies... you wouldn't be here if I did 
The ride height is something that I've questioned with him from when the front ns spring was replaced and he has been assuring me. I also measured it accord by to records that I held... it has been recorded within the last few pages somewhere but nevertheless, I remain unconvinced. Hence, where we are now. I haven't really had significant time to address it, but during the last service I did run it by him again.
With respect to the ballast, I recall BC doing the alignment on many of his vehicles and if I had a BMW on coils would certainly ask the question for myself. Perhaps he can comment further on this as I'd be interested in whether or not it's a universal requirement for BMWs (at least) or vehicles with coil springs. As for the S211 E500 with full airmatic, I don't believe it's consequential.
The ride height is something that I've questioned with him from when the front ns spring was replaced and he has been assuring me. I also measured it accord by to records that I held... it has been recorded within the last few pages somewhere but nevertheless, I remain unconvinced. Hence, where we are now. I haven't really had significant time to address it, but during the last service I did run it by him again.
With respect to the ballast, I recall BC doing the alignment on many of his vehicles and if I had a BMW on coils would certainly ask the question for myself. Perhaps he can comment further on this as I'd be interested in whether or not it's a universal requirement for BMWs (at least) or vehicles with coil springs. As for the S211 E500 with full airmatic, I don't believe it's consequential.
Replacing the brake hoses will be very easy provided the pipe unions have not corroded and seized. That said, the rear pipes on S211s rot badly just above the pipe to hose union, where the pipe pops out from behind the arch liner, but without checking through 57 pages I can’t imagine they have not already been repaired. If the rear pipes have not been repaired, then it’s highly likely that some new pipe will be required, and the ease (and cost) depends on whether your chap is happy to splice in a repair section behind the arch liner (not an issue in my book) or he insists on replacing the complete section which snakes away over the subframe.
The rear brake pipes were indeed corroded and replaced at the same time as the rear subframe mounts iirc in around 2019.
ETA
When the corroded brake lines were first spotted by the kindly but ruthless ze German techician.
ETA
When the corroded brake lines were first spotted by the kindly but ruthless ze German techician.
Edited by bolidemichael on Thursday 13th April 11:35
bolidemichael said:
<snip>With respect to the ballast, I recall BC doing the alignment on many of his vehicles and if I had a BMW on coils would certainly ask the question for myself. Perhaps he can comment further on this as I'd be interested in whether or not it's a universal requirement for BMWs (at least) or vehicles with coil springs. As for the S211 E500 with full airmatic, I don't believe it's consequential.
It's been a requirement for all of my Vauxhall/Opel/Lotus I've always sought out the info for my BMW's (but I have no idea if this is common to all BMW's)
On my SLK55 Merc it's not been a requirement - I think they are full tank of fuel and tyre pressures at manufactures settings but I'd need to check again
Don't remember it being a requirement on any of my smaller VW's
I just do an internet search and normally find the relevant specs quite quickly
B'stard Child said:
bolidemichael said:
<snip>With respect to the ballast, I recall BC doing the alignment on many of his vehicles and if I had a BMW on coils would certainly ask the question for myself. Perhaps he can comment further on this as I'd be interested in whether or not it's a universal requirement for BMWs (at least) or vehicles with coil springs. As for the S211 E500 with full airmatic, I don't believe it's consequential.
It's been a requirement for all of my Vauxhall/Opel/Lotus I've always sought out the info for my BMW's (but I have no idea if this is common to all BMW's)
On my SLK55 Merc it's not been a requirement - I think they are full tank of fuel and tyre pressures at manufactures settings but I'd need to check again
Don't remember it being a requirement on any of my smaller VW's
I just do an internet search and normally find the relevant specs quite quickly
Did I imagine reading about your BMW ballast insistence in your 125i on the floor thread?
bolidemichael said:
Thanks... what do you search for, out of interest?
Did I imagine reading about your BMW ballast insistence in your 125i on the floor thread?
Yes ballast was added to both 125i and 740i as per BMW destructionsDid I imagine reading about your BMW ballast insistence in your 125i on the floor thread?
For what to search for it really isn't complicated
Google "Suspension alignment settings BMW 740i"
And you'll find links like [url=http://www.jltechno.com/en/alignment_specs.php?brand=BMW((NA)&ModelName=7%C2%A0Series%C2%A0(E38),740i,Reg.%C2%A0Suspension&ModelID=300543]This - Clicky[url]
For clarity I'm not saying the image above is correct for a UK car just that info is out there and easily found and multiple sources can quickly corroborate good info
Thanks BC, those charts are very precise, aren't they?
Well, my indy has had further thoughts and isn't convinced that the hoses would be responsible for the brake disc damage; they're designed to accommodate 100 Bar of pressure when the SBC is re-calibrating, but nowhere near that when the brakes are operational.
The o/s rear brake disc is discoloured blue and has a pad mark, though the caliper isn't sticking -- it does suggest that a caliper has failed, but he is doubtful of that as it wouldn't be enough to warp a disc (as sdh2903 has correctly stated on another chat). The front and rear discs have high spots in them, so he is going to borrow a dial gauge from MB in order to measure the hubs. Looking through my records, I cannot see any evidence that the front or rear wheel bearing have been replaced, but I thought (as did he) that at least some had been replaced. Perhaps I'll read back through the thread -- but the paperwork doesn't suggest it at all.
As for the SBC replacement, the MB guys were tut tutting at the repair -- "there's a reason that these aren't repaired and always replaced". The SBC cannot be tested in situ as it runs on a fail safe when STAR is plugged in. The Man did call the SBC repair man -- he just laser cleans the bores on the mechanical side as they are prone to rust from the hygroscopic brake fluid (mine did have quite a number of brake fluid changes over the years, mind!). Electrically, all that can be done is a resetting on the pressures.
Whilst I was looking at the paperwork, I recorded when brakes discs and pads had been changed during my ownership:
125k Front Discs pads (brembo)
126k Front Discs Pads (1,000 miles)
144k Rear pads
149k Front pads (23,000 miles)
159k Front discs pads (33k/10,000 miles)
163k Rear discs pads (19,000 miles)
168k Front discs (pads?) (5,000 miles)
176k Front discs pads (6,000 miles)
176k Rear discs pads (13,000 miles)
Well, my indy has had further thoughts and isn't convinced that the hoses would be responsible for the brake disc damage; they're designed to accommodate 100 Bar of pressure when the SBC is re-calibrating, but nowhere near that when the brakes are operational.
The o/s rear brake disc is discoloured blue and has a pad mark, though the caliper isn't sticking -- it does suggest that a caliper has failed, but he is doubtful of that as it wouldn't be enough to warp a disc (as sdh2903 has correctly stated on another chat). The front and rear discs have high spots in them, so he is going to borrow a dial gauge from MB in order to measure the hubs. Looking through my records, I cannot see any evidence that the front or rear wheel bearing have been replaced, but I thought (as did he) that at least some had been replaced. Perhaps I'll read back through the thread -- but the paperwork doesn't suggest it at all.
As for the SBC replacement, the MB guys were tut tutting at the repair -- "there's a reason that these aren't repaired and always replaced". The SBC cannot be tested in situ as it runs on a fail safe when STAR is plugged in. The Man did call the SBC repair man -- he just laser cleans the bores on the mechanical side as they are prone to rust from the hygroscopic brake fluid (mine did have quite a number of brake fluid changes over the years, mind!). Electrically, all that can be done is a resetting on the pressures.
Whilst I was looking at the paperwork, I recorded when brakes discs and pads had been changed during my ownership:
125k Front Discs pads (brembo)
126k Front Discs Pads (1,000 miles)
144k Rear pads
149k Front pads (23,000 miles)
159k Front discs pads (33k/10,000 miles)
163k Rear discs pads (19,000 miles)
168k Front discs (pads?) (5,000 miles)
176k Front discs pads (6,000 miles)
176k Rear discs pads (13,000 miles)
Edited by bolidemichael on Saturday 15th April 12:02
Hmm. I have to say that the whole 'collapsed line' thing is a new one on me. I've never heard that mentioned as the cause of brake wobble.
You're in good company as ever. My Discovery has developed epic brake wobble over the past month or so, and it's going in on Monday for the annual wallet reaming.
Looking back at the (hilariously/worryingly extensive) history, it appears the front discs have done 35k. Given that we're talking about a 2.5T 4x4 that does plenty of long runs, I'd expect your discs to be lasting at least that long.
Interested to see what you find.
You're in good company as ever. My Discovery has developed epic brake wobble over the past month or so, and it's going in on Monday for the annual wallet reaming.
Looking back at the (hilariously/worryingly extensive) history, it appears the front discs have done 35k. Given that we're talking about a 2.5T 4x4 that does plenty of long runs, I'd expect your discs to be lasting at least that long.
Interested to see what you find.
Sounds like a frustrating issue!
I had a similar issue on a CLK where the hub face had corroded behind where the inner discs mates to the hub. I cleaned all this up as best I could and the issue went away. I imagine with all the investigation that yours are clean however but the hub runout gauge thingy will show up any wobble hopefully?
Could it be to do with the wheel bearings needing adjustment? Theyre simple to tighten up on Merc but you can usually feel wobble in the road wheel if they're overly loose.
Hope you get it sorted soon
I had a similar issue on a CLK where the hub face had corroded behind where the inner discs mates to the hub. I cleaned all this up as best I could and the issue went away. I imagine with all the investigation that yours are clean however but the hub runout gauge thingy will show up any wobble hopefully?
Could it be to do with the wheel bearings needing adjustment? Theyre simple to tighten up on Merc but you can usually feel wobble in the road wheel if they're overly loose.
Hope you get it sorted soon
5 sets of front discs in 50k! 
I know that I've got slightly juddery front brakes on the daily at the moment but they aren't warped or cracked - the heat of hard braking (motorway use when some f
ker pulls out on you etc) is pad transfer from the pad to certain parts of the disc, not evenly. Even pad transfer is a thing that happens when we bed the brakes in, but you can see spots on the disc where it's left a bit more than it should have. The fact that they are the cheapest ste pads is the problem; luckily, they are nearly gone, and I'll replace the lot with new ones.
http://forums.racingbrake.com/forum/category/gener...
Very strange that it's only the nearside though.
I know that I've got slightly juddery front brakes on the daily at the moment but they aren't warped or cracked - the heat of hard braking (motorway use when some f
ker pulls out on you etc) is pad transfer from the pad to certain parts of the disc, not evenly. Even pad transfer is a thing that happens when we bed the brakes in, but you can see spots on the disc where it's left a bit more than it should have. The fact that they are the cheapest ste pads is the problem; luckily, they are nearly gone, and I'll replace the lot with new ones.http://forums.racingbrake.com/forum/category/gener...
Very strange that it's only the nearside though.
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