Alfa 159 1750 tbi (208000 miles)
Discussion
Zombie said:
The replacement upper arm turned up this week so we replaced that yesterday.
Elearn (workshop manual) says that you should remove the arm after taking the suspension strut out, which seemed like a PITA, but that is based on our experiences with 156s etc.
But looking at it, we thought the (E18) bolts would come out using a spanner and wiggling the suspension strut...
A half decent ratchet spanner should cheat the E18 bolts, too. Save even more time. Elearn (workshop manual) says that you should remove the arm after taking the suspension strut out, which seemed like a PITA, but that is based on our experiences with 156s etc.
But looking at it, we thought the (E18) bolts would come out using a spanner and wiggling the suspension strut...
Can recommend Bluepoint.
You don't seem to mind the odd frivolous purchase, you own Alfas...!
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Blue-point-BOERM-ratche...
Thank me later
You don't seem to mind the odd frivolous purchase, you own Alfas...!
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Blue-point-BOERM-ratche...
Thank me later
LetsTryAgain said:
Can recommend Bluepoint.
You don't seem to mind the odd frivolous purchase, you own Alfas...!
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Blue-point-BOERM-ratche...
Thank me later
I've actually got more than one set of them but the bolt in the wishbone is an E18 torx... :PYou don't seem to mind the odd frivolous purchase, you own Alfas...!
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Blue-point-BOERM-ratche...
Thank me later
(Thanks anyway)
Edited by Zombie on Tuesday 19th June 23:17
To recap, a smart alec over on the Alfa forums has pointed out that one of the rear springs is broken....
Offside;
IMG_8617 by Chris, on Flickr
Nearside;
IMG_8620 by Chris, on Flickr
The ride heights (side to side) measure the same at 350mm, wheel centre to arch apex. But if you count the coils, they're different.
Spring colour code on the offside was Y/Y/O/W tying in with the part number eper specifies for the car and cross-references correctly with other parts websites.
Prompting the decision to replace both of the rear coils, despite one being possibly broken and the other looking newish.
IMG_7854 by Chris, on Flickr
IMG_7855 by Chris, on Flickr
Which proved to be the right decision. We pulled the seaside unit out, stripped that down and found the spring was, in theory, the wrong one;
IMG_7843 by Chris, on Flickr
Y/O/W Rather than Y/Y/O/W. It was shorter, but not broken, the OD of the coils at either end being smaller than the rest of the spring.
The offiside, was broken;
IMG_7837 by Chris, on Flickr
IMG_7841 by Chris, on Flickr
IMG_7849 by Chris, on Flickr
IMG_7850 by Chris, on Flickr
Moving on... with the right springs fitted.... I hope.
The damper bodies were, as per the norm, showing sighs of corrosion, so my Dad spend an hour or two cleaning them up;
IMG_7845-2 by Chris, on Flickr
Wire brushed;
IMG_7861 by Chris, on Flickr
Chemically treated
IMG_7864 by Chris, on Flickr
Primed
IMG_7880-2 by Chris, on Flickr
Painted, waxoyled and rebuilt;
IMG_7881-2 by Chris, on Flickr
Meanwhile, I had a poke about under the car;
IMG_7876-2 by Chris, on Flickr
And found this;
IMG_7871 by Chris, on Flickr
The heatshield between the fuel tank and the exhaust had broken away from the tank and was resting on the exhaust. How it was not making a right racket is beyond me. But we fixed that and carried on.
You have to take the boot apart to get the struts out;
IMG_7852 by Chris, on Flickr
Rather than watch the paint on the dampers dry, I gave the boot and behind the seats a tickle with the hoover;
IMG_7865 by Chris, on Flickr
IMG_7868 by Chris, on Flickr
IMG_7867 by Chris, on Flickr
It took about 7 hours in total for the two of us to do the job, mostly because the bolts in the nearside were totally seized, most notably the 21mm bolt through the bottom of the strut. I broke not 1, but 2 decent quality 1/2 drive sockets undoing it.
Offside;
IMG_8617 by Chris, on FlickrNearside;
IMG_8620 by Chris, on FlickrThe ride heights (side to side) measure the same at 350mm, wheel centre to arch apex. But if you count the coils, they're different.
Spring colour code on the offside was Y/Y/O/W tying in with the part number eper specifies for the car and cross-references correctly with other parts websites.
Prompting the decision to replace both of the rear coils, despite one being possibly broken and the other looking newish.
IMG_7854 by Chris, on FlickrIMG_7855 by Chris, on FlickrWhich proved to be the right decision. We pulled the seaside unit out, stripped that down and found the spring was, in theory, the wrong one;
IMG_7843 by Chris, on FlickrY/O/W Rather than Y/Y/O/W. It was shorter, but not broken, the OD of the coils at either end being smaller than the rest of the spring.
The offiside, was broken;
IMG_7837 by Chris, on FlickrIMG_7841 by Chris, on FlickrIMG_7849 by Chris, on FlickrIMG_7850 by Chris, on FlickrMoving on... with the right springs fitted.... I hope.
The damper bodies were, as per the norm, showing sighs of corrosion, so my Dad spend an hour or two cleaning them up;
IMG_7845-2 by Chris, on FlickrWire brushed;
IMG_7861 by Chris, on FlickrChemically treated
IMG_7864 by Chris, on FlickrPrimed
IMG_7880-2 by Chris, on FlickrPainted, waxoyled and rebuilt;
IMG_7881-2 by Chris, on FlickrMeanwhile, I had a poke about under the car;
IMG_7876-2 by Chris, on FlickrAnd found this;
IMG_7871 by Chris, on FlickrThe heatshield between the fuel tank and the exhaust had broken away from the tank and was resting on the exhaust. How it was not making a right racket is beyond me. But we fixed that and carried on.
You have to take the boot apart to get the struts out;
IMG_7852 by Chris, on FlickrRather than watch the paint on the dampers dry, I gave the boot and behind the seats a tickle with the hoover;
IMG_7865 by Chris, on FlickrIMG_7868 by Chris, on FlickrIMG_7867 by Chris, on FlickrIt took about 7 hours in total for the two of us to do the job, mostly because the bolts in the nearside were totally seized, most notably the 21mm bolt through the bottom of the strut. I broke not 1, but 2 decent quality 1/2 drive sockets undoing it.
Edited by Zombie on Sunday 24th June 02:10
Edited by Zombie on Sunday 24th June 02:11
Good work and enjoyable write up...I wish I had the knowledge and skills, and space to do that amount of work !
I fully understand that you would want to do all this ...it's because it's an Alfa !
I am on my second 156, I have spent way more than it will ever be worth, I have put more miles on this one ( 2005 150 JTDM with a remap to 180), over 90 K it is now at 155,000 and is my daily commuter car.
There is nothing else that I would rather drive which is the reason I have kept it for so long.
I agree with the statement about using a car: I left mine for about 2 months, parked outside, while I used my 'new' spare car, a Grande Punto 130 1.9 Mjet, and getting back into the Alfa caused me concern, as there were quite a few squeaks and noises that definitely were not there when I parked it up ! The brakes needed a day or 2 to get back to normal, there were noises of protest with the steering on parking etc. After a week of use all was back to normal, so I shall be wary of leaving it unused for too long.
PS just a thought about yours: one of the pics shows the fuel tank etc, and those tank straps look quite rusty. The reason I mention it is that I brimmed my tank on the 156 once, pulled away from the pump and discovered that one of the tank straps had broken. I had to drive extremely gently with about 70 litres of diesel resting on the remaining rusty strap until I could arrange for new Alfa ones to be fitted. I think they are reasonably easy to get at on a 156, maybe not on a 159 !
I fully understand that you would want to do all this ...it's because it's an Alfa !
I am on my second 156, I have spent way more than it will ever be worth, I have put more miles on this one ( 2005 150 JTDM with a remap to 180), over 90 K it is now at 155,000 and is my daily commuter car.
There is nothing else that I would rather drive which is the reason I have kept it for so long.
I agree with the statement about using a car: I left mine for about 2 months, parked outside, while I used my 'new' spare car, a Grande Punto 130 1.9 Mjet, and getting back into the Alfa caused me concern, as there were quite a few squeaks and noises that definitely were not there when I parked it up ! The brakes needed a day or 2 to get back to normal, there were noises of protest with the steering on parking etc. After a week of use all was back to normal, so I shall be wary of leaving it unused for too long.
PS just a thought about yours: one of the pics shows the fuel tank etc, and those tank straps look quite rusty. The reason I mention it is that I brimmed my tank on the 156 once, pulled away from the pump and discovered that one of the tank straps had broken. I had to drive extremely gently with about 70 litres of diesel resting on the remaining rusty strap until I could arrange for new Alfa ones to be fitted. I think they are reasonably easy to get at on a 156, maybe not on a 159 !
Bodywork doesn't look too bad for a 208k car.
Some sellers are just bluffers. I drove 100 mile round trip to see a MINT and IMMACULATE car a few weeks ago. Turned up and it was obvious the car hadn't been driven in months and had effectively taken route on his gravel driveway. He had lied about the mileage and condition.
The dense cobweb on the wing mirror was the last straw. The seller kept saying it was a future classic and collectors item. It was a CAT D lemon.
Some sellers are just bluffers. I drove 100 mile round trip to see a MINT and IMMACULATE car a few weeks ago. Turned up and it was obvious the car hadn't been driven in months and had effectively taken route on his gravel driveway. He had lied about the mileage and condition.
The dense cobweb on the wing mirror was the last straw. The seller kept saying it was a future classic and collectors item. It was a CAT D lemon.
Piginapoke said:
Good work again. Enjoying this thread.
Thanks, I do try to make it interesting, but lets be honest, it's a diary about running a vectra in a little black dress.Paul S4 said:
Good work and enjoyable write up...I wish I had the knowledge and skills, and space to do that amount of work !
I fully understand that you would want to do all this ...it's because it's an Alfa !
I am on my second 156, I have spent way more than it will ever be worth, I have put more miles on this one ( 2005 150 JTDM with a remap to 180), over 90 K it is now at 155,000 and is my daily commuter car.
There is nothing else that I would rather drive which is the reason I have kept it for so long.
I agree with the statement about using a car: I left mine for about 2 months, parked outside, while I used my 'new' spare car, a Grande Punto 130 1.9 Mjet, and getting back into the Alfa caused me concern, as there were quite a few squeaks and noises that definitely were not there when I parked it up ! The brakes needed a day or 2 to get back to normal, there were noises of protest with the steering on parking etc. After a week of use all was back to normal, so I shall be wary of leaving it unused for too long.
PS just a thought about yours: one of the pics shows the fuel tank etc, and those tank straps look quite rusty. The reason I mention it is that I brimmed my tank on the 156 once, pulled away from the pump and discovered that one of the tank straps had broken. I had to drive extremely gently with about 70 litres of diesel resting on the remaining rusty strap until I could arrange for new Alfa ones to be fitted. I think they are reasonably easy to get at on a 156, maybe not on a 159 !
Don't you start. (see below) The tank straps are fine! I fully understand that you would want to do all this ...it's because it's an Alfa !
I am on my second 156, I have spent way more than it will ever be worth, I have put more miles on this one ( 2005 150 JTDM with a remap to 180), over 90 K it is now at 155,000 and is my daily commuter car.
There is nothing else that I would rather drive which is the reason I have kept it for so long.
I agree with the statement about using a car: I left mine for about 2 months, parked outside, while I used my 'new' spare car, a Grande Punto 130 1.9 Mjet, and getting back into the Alfa caused me concern, as there were quite a few squeaks and noises that definitely were not there when I parked it up ! The brakes needed a day or 2 to get back to normal, there were noises of protest with the steering on parking etc. After a week of use all was back to normal, so I shall be wary of leaving it unused for too long.
PS just a thought about yours: one of the pics shows the fuel tank etc, and those tank straps look quite rusty. The reason I mention it is that I brimmed my tank on the 156 once, pulled away from the pump and discovered that one of the tank straps had broken. I had to drive extremely gently with about 70 litres of diesel resting on the remaining rusty strap until I could arrange for new Alfa ones to be fitted. I think they are reasonably easy to get at on a 156, maybe not on a 159 !
Spinakerr said:
Good stuff - the 'subtly snapped springs' are a complete pain, well done getting it symmetrical and good for another few miles. Are you going to get it realigned? Or is there further suspension work to do before visiting one of the Laser Churches?
The rear tyres are practically worn out, new ones are in the loft. Going to monitor tyre wear and decide whether to spend the 70quid on a full alignment on that basis. Also, see below... No point getting it tracked ATMBlueHave said:
Bodywork doesn't look too bad for a 208k car.
Some sellers are just bluffers. I drove 100 mile round trip to see a MINT and IMMACULATE car a few weeks ago. Turned up and it was obvious the car hadn't been driven in months and had effectively taken route on his gravel driveway. He had lied about the mileage and condition.
The dense cobweb on the wing mirror was the last straw. The seller kept saying it was a future classic and collectors item. It was a CAT D lemon.
That's the paradox. There are plenty of low mileage dogs out there - I went to see a GT Q2 with 72k on it before the 159, with a serious interest. It was described as good and I think it was up for 2.5k, but it turned out to be a battered dog bodywork wise. It didn't have a straight panel, wheel was bent it wasn't tracking straight and it had a vibration from the front. I Offered 2k for it and was shown the door. After I'd bought the 159, I was amused to see the GT on ebay for £1995 about 2 weeks after looking at it.Some sellers are just bluffers. I drove 100 mile round trip to see a MINT and IMMACULATE car a few weeks ago. Turned up and it was obvious the car hadn't been driven in months and had effectively taken route on his gravel driveway. He had lied about the mileage and condition.
The dense cobweb on the wing mirror was the last straw. The seller kept saying it was a future classic and collectors item. It was a CAT D lemon.
Others I've seen have been cat C & D recently. Seems to be a growing trend for that kind of thing being falsely advertised on ebay as Autotrader checks and flags them now. And there's no mechanism to report an ad on ebay as being fraudulent for this reason.
The kind folk on the alfa forums have been at it again.
Apparently there are two types of upper arm that the parts suppliers generally aren't aware of or acknowledge (#Firstline, yes you!!!
)
This relates to the taper of the ball joint in the upper arm which differs relative to the suspension upright. Early 159's and Brera's were built with cast iron uprights but after being accused by the press and general public as being a bit porky, alfa put them on a diet and changed the uprights to cast alloy, resulting in a the need for a different ball join taper.
After being informed of this and it being suggested that the part i fitted wasn't right, I pulled it apart and checked the taper dimensions, which confirmed it's the wrong part;
Old arm;
IMG_8684 by Chris, on Flickr
IMG_8682 by Chris, on Flickr
So that's 14mm at the base of the taper and 11mm at the end. Length of the taper being 16mm.
New arm (the one that's on the car);
IMG_8685 by Chris, on Flickr
IMG_8686 by Chris, on Flickr
14mm at the base, 13mm at the tip with a 10mm taper length.
Both measurements roughly correlating with the 10:1 and 6:1 ratios suggested by alfa's workshop manual.
New one on ordered from first line, hoping it's the right one as they list 2 types.
Went to collect it today. Nope. Same. More time wasted.
Tried ordering a TRW arm from a different supplier, which should be here tomorrow (Friday).
Apparently there are two types of upper arm that the parts suppliers generally aren't aware of or acknowledge (#Firstline, yes you!!!
) This relates to the taper of the ball joint in the upper arm which differs relative to the suspension upright. Early 159's and Brera's were built with cast iron uprights but after being accused by the press and general public as being a bit porky, alfa put them on a diet and changed the uprights to cast alloy, resulting in a the need for a different ball join taper.
After being informed of this and it being suggested that the part i fitted wasn't right, I pulled it apart and checked the taper dimensions, which confirmed it's the wrong part;
Old arm;
IMG_8684 by Chris, on FlickrIMG_8682 by Chris, on FlickrSo that's 14mm at the base of the taper and 11mm at the end. Length of the taper being 16mm.
New arm (the one that's on the car);
IMG_8685 by Chris, on FlickrIMG_8686 by Chris, on Flickr14mm at the base, 13mm at the tip with a 10mm taper length.
Both measurements roughly correlating with the 10:1 and 6:1 ratios suggested by alfa's workshop manual.
New one on ordered from first line, hoping it's the right one as they list 2 types.
Went to collect it today. Nope. Same. More time wasted.
Tried ordering a TRW arm from a different supplier, which should be here tomorrow (Friday).
Edited by Zombie on Friday 29th June 01:20
Not satisfied with the outcome of the upper arm issue I also had a look at the HP feed to the turbo as well - thought I could smell burning oil yesterday, opened the bonnet and spotted a small plume escape from heat shields around it.
It's got the original part on it and looks like it's been leaking from the banjo bolt for some time;
IMG_8674 by Chris, on Flickr
IMG_8673 by Chris, on Flickr
However, not that I've looked at it, the routing of the replacement pipe is different. Theres a solid section from the turbo side that feeds into a flexi section on the other end on both pipes but the first bit by the turbo is different;
IMG_8676 by Chris, on Flickr
IMG_8677 by Chris, on Flickr
IMG_8678 by Chris, on Flickr
IMG_8679 by Chris, on Flickr
I suspect that the flow in the existing pipe is restricted by carbon deposits causing excessive pressure (hence the modified, insulated part) and the leak or the banjo seals have failed.
But as the routing of the pipe is different, there's questions in my mind if it's the right part. (FFS...)
- After the palaver that's unfolded with the upper arm, I disinclined to trust anything at the moment!!
It's got the original part on it and looks like it's been leaking from the banjo bolt for some time;
IMG_8674 by Chris, on FlickrIMG_8673 by Chris, on FlickrHowever, not that I've looked at it, the routing of the replacement pipe is different. Theres a solid section from the turbo side that feeds into a flexi section on the other end on both pipes but the first bit by the turbo is different;
IMG_8676 by Chris, on FlickrIMG_8677 by Chris, on FlickrIMG_8678 by Chris, on FlickrIMG_8679 by Chris, on FlickrI suspect that the flow in the existing pipe is restricted by carbon deposits causing excessive pressure (hence the modified, insulated part) and the leak or the banjo seals have failed.
But as the routing of the pipe is different, there's questions in my mind if it's the right part. (FFS...)
- After the palaver that's unfolded with the upper arm, I disinclined to trust anything at the moment!!
209,408miles.... Wednesday. Engine managment light had a party and limp home mode decided to join in.
And we don't have a workshop manual that covers the engine.
Seems to be a boost issue, we've not had much luck with theses, tricksey they are.
But having taken my head out out my hands, I thought I'd found the problem wednesday evening;
159 boost fault by Chris, on Flickr
Fitted some new hose today and, I'm hesitant to say as it's tempting fate, it seems to be fixed.
And we don't have a workshop manual that covers the engine.
Seems to be a boost issue, we've not had much luck with theses, tricksey they are.
But having taken my head out out my hands, I thought I'd found the problem wednesday evening;
159 boost fault by Chris, on FlickrFitted some new hose today and, I'm hesitant to say as it's tempting fate, it seems to be fixed.
Whilst sorting out the 159, We've had a right saga with my Mum's Brera 2.2sv (06, 50k, owned from new) recently.
It started with a trip to a specialist for timing chains. £1k later and on the way back my Dad noticed what he thought was a noise wheel bearing.
We investigated and found on of the rear springs was broken, same as mine and pretty much as posted above. Surmising that after being picked up on the lift, the spring could have moved relative to to broken part resulting in the noise.
We stripped it down, got new springs ordered and found they were completely wrong. (This was a Saturday) - new ones wouldn't arrive till Wednesday.
And then my Dad found that the dampers were corroded - small hole in the cup. New ones of them required then.
He put it all back together and.... No change the noise is still there. Possibly worse. I took it for a drive last night and noticed that in addition to the noise, the instruments were flickering and it was missing between 1.5k and 3k.
Having checked the battery voltage my dad thinks the lumpy power deliver and flickering instruments is down to alternator voltage, which is 12.8v under load. Seems to be an intermittent issue though, possibly temperature related.
As for the noise, it's a high frequency rumble that I can just about feel through the steering. Starts at around 40mph, peaks at 50 mph and disappears at 60 mph. It is road speed related and is not related to gear selection.
So we think its either offside wheel bearing or gearbox. Father has had the wheel off, taken the calliper off and can't find any movement or noise in the bearing, hence the question over the gearbox.
Moving forward to today, fixing the vacuum hose on the 159 was a side issue to the Brera which we had another look at.
We started by swapping the wheels off my 159 on to the Brera to confirm or rule them out as the cause;
IMG_7892 by Chris, on Flickr
IMG_7893 by Chris, on Flickr
IMG_7895 by Chris, on Flickr
I was not impressed with the way the 159 looked on the Brera's 17's...
IMG_7888 by Chris, on Flickr
Having swapped them and the noise remaining with the Brera, we're 100% sure it's not wheels.
Back to the other suspects it is then. Wheel bearing or gearbox.
As it's most evident at 50mph, it's not easy to be flinging it about left and right to see if the the whine changes - I got shouted at... So that's inconclusive.
We did jack both the 159 and the brera up to compare with each other. There is a notchiness on rotating the wheel in it's initial movement that's not present on the 159. There is a noise present in the Brera's gearbox when spinning the wheel by hand. But by this time the BT Engineer working on a fault in the road had his van running so I couldn't check it against the 159.
We also put a stethoscope on the gearbox and the offside bearing which we think is where the noise is going from. The bearing is quiet and the noise in the gearbox that could be normal, just amplified.
Again, inconclusive. Arse.
It started with a trip to a specialist for timing chains. £1k later and on the way back my Dad noticed what he thought was a noise wheel bearing.
We investigated and found on of the rear springs was broken, same as mine and pretty much as posted above. Surmising that after being picked up on the lift, the spring could have moved relative to to broken part resulting in the noise.
We stripped it down, got new springs ordered and found they were completely wrong. (This was a Saturday) - new ones wouldn't arrive till Wednesday.
And then my Dad found that the dampers were corroded - small hole in the cup. New ones of them required then.
He put it all back together and.... No change the noise is still there. Possibly worse. I took it for a drive last night and noticed that in addition to the noise, the instruments were flickering and it was missing between 1.5k and 3k.
Having checked the battery voltage my dad thinks the lumpy power deliver and flickering instruments is down to alternator voltage, which is 12.8v under load. Seems to be an intermittent issue though, possibly temperature related.
As for the noise, it's a high frequency rumble that I can just about feel through the steering. Starts at around 40mph, peaks at 50 mph and disappears at 60 mph. It is road speed related and is not related to gear selection.
So we think its either offside wheel bearing or gearbox. Father has had the wheel off, taken the calliper off and can't find any movement or noise in the bearing, hence the question over the gearbox.
Moving forward to today, fixing the vacuum hose on the 159 was a side issue to the Brera which we had another look at.
We started by swapping the wheels off my 159 on to the Brera to confirm or rule them out as the cause;
IMG_7892 by Chris, on FlickrIMG_7893 by Chris, on FlickrIMG_7895 by Chris, on FlickrI was not impressed with the way the 159 looked on the Brera's 17's...
IMG_7888 by Chris, on FlickrHaving swapped them and the noise remaining with the Brera, we're 100% sure it's not wheels.
Back to the other suspects it is then. Wheel bearing or gearbox.
As it's most evident at 50mph, it's not easy to be flinging it about left and right to see if the the whine changes - I got shouted at... So that's inconclusive.
We did jack both the 159 and the brera up to compare with each other. There is a notchiness on rotating the wheel in it's initial movement that's not present on the 159. There is a noise present in the Brera's gearbox when spinning the wheel by hand. But by this time the BT Engineer working on a fault in the road had his van running so I couldn't check it against the 159.
We also put a stethoscope on the gearbox and the offside bearing which we think is where the noise is going from. The bearing is quiet and the noise in the gearbox that could be normal, just amplified.
Again, inconclusive. Arse.
Edited by Zombie on Friday 29th June 01:40
Interested to read about smoke from around turbo on the 159, I'm getting the same (sometimes you can see smoke coming from the side of the bonnet when stopped). Also the left side of the engine is covered in oil.
Will be comparing your photos to my engine tomorrow, while I'm changing discs and pads.
I finally cured my engine not pulling at low revs with an eBay Chinese EGR valve and a forced DPF regen'.
I'm certainly learning a lot from this thread, thanks.
Will be comparing your photos to my engine tomorrow, while I'm changing discs and pads.
I finally cured my engine not pulling at low revs with an eBay Chinese EGR valve and a forced DPF regen'.
I'm certainly learning a lot from this thread, thanks.
Ste372 said:
Dont know if this will help, you may ready be aware of this method. Regards to the wheel bearing. Jack it up spin the wheel and grab a hold of the shock/spring see if you can feel any vibration/roughness being transmitted through the shock
I wasn't aware of that method specifically, but I used an electronic stethoscope on both and the hub carrier and couldn't hear anything.Gassing Station | Readers' Cars | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff