1985 Rover 3500 Vitesse
Discussion
miniman said:
Looking forward to seeing you Saturday! I’ll be in the pink TVR outside the hangar!
I beelined it straight for you! miniman said:
Wheels look even more awesome in the metal. Good to see you Joe 
Cheers 
Was a pleasure chatting with you, and thankyou for letting me sit in your beautiful new interior, I definitely approve. And that colour is
bolidemichael said:
You’re in the hangar too? That’ll be fun.
I saw you at the FotU and you were deep in geekery convo.
That does sound like me, pleasure to see you again and the Merc was looking lovely! I saw you at the FotU and you were deep in geekery convo.
Scrump said:
Good to meet you at Bicester.
Lovely car
You too! Brilliant to put a face to a name. Lovely car
bangerhoarder said:
Ooooof they do look so good from any angle, but what a behind that is. Not saggy or wrinkled at 39!
I was very happy with that pic, can't beat golden hour. So before I could come to Bicester, I couldn't do that with a beige steering wheel...
Now I'm fully aware this is sacrilegious to do to a NOS wheel, especially for the person who bid me up by £100 more than I would have paid who was desperate for a Parchment steering wheel...
But it's now Porsche Slate Grey...
& yes I was up till 11pm on Friday night doing this.
Installed at 6:08 Saturday morning
In this light it looks perfect.
In this light it looks blue, feck...
It's also quite a bit darker than what I was expecting.
I'm not re-dying it, and it doesn't clash as badly as it does before, I don't hate it...
Anyway Saturday. As I said I was up at silly o'clock to install a steering wheel, and had a lovely drive down to Bicester.
Waiting to enter the Hanger I was a little sad I wasn't out in the sunshine. Later when it pissed it down, very happy to be inside!
So proud to be included in the Readers Rides Display.
I spent the day chatting with as many people who would listen, and generally having a lovely time.
Such a good event and brilliant to put faces to names.
So good to meet everyone who came and said hello
Joe
Spinakerr said:
It might be easier just to recolour the rest of the dash in the more bluey tint you now have a whole bottle of dye for....
Great to meet you, there was always a horde of slavering interest around your car every time we walked past - a crowd favourite!
Just really go in on it, it is a Porsche colour after all! Great to meet you, there was always a horde of slavering interest around your car every time we walked past - a crowd favourite!
It is a leather dye though and there really isn't much leather in that interior...
You too man! I was sure printing out the article from Matt would have swung me a prize but not to be!
I did get a real a kick walking past and listening to the comments.
LanceRS said:
Having seen it in person, that wheel looks amazing in there.
Cheers, the more I spend around them the more I love them. Really seem to accentuate everything about the car. I parked next to a standard Vitesse recently and it makes those wheels look tiny!I did also pop along to Mallory for Retro Rides on the Sunday which was good fun, but after Saturday I was knackered!
A very good weekend! But not without its hiccups!
In general the Rover isn't running as well as it has though.
It's strong to say it's started to play up a little, still starts and drives nicely but it's not not very happy starting from cold anymore, and the 1500rpm shunting is getting a little worse.
Looking at the plugs I think that's looking lean...
Happy to hear others thoughts though.
Fuel pressure is good and strong so I'm suspecting either AFM or ECU. Might pull the injectors and have them cleaned too.
Ive also got some colder plugs and a rotor and dizzy cap just incase it's ignition related.
I'd also had another look at the timing, as my total advance isn't that high despite running more than factory initial specs. Seems I only get around 12degrees mechanical advance. So with 12static I'm only getting 24 total at 3500rpm. I am getting a full 20degrees vacuum though...
I tried running 16static to get my full 28degrees all in but that seems a lot, and I think the dots on the plugs tell me that too...
Joe
miniman said:
Nice mention in this week's Smith & Sniff
I was so happy listening to that. Not that it should matter, but of course it does, it's always nice to hear that your view is enjoyed and shared by others!Just like meeting people at the Pistonheads event really!
I did enjoy the mention of the continental adult pamphlets too, I thought they were a bit of fun
shalmaneser said:
How would timing advance affect the fuel mixture? those are two separate things are they not? I would have thought you would want more than 25 odd degrees of advance though, you should be able to feel any preignition, it's pretty noticeable!
Oh definitely I'm complicating issues by combining them, I was going with that the advanced timing could also lead to the combustion chamber running hotter by looking at the timing marks on the plug strap. But I think I was going down the wrong road with that one.
The starting from cold was definitely getting worse, and one thing I always loved was how quick it's cold start was!
It was now taking a few cranks, and running like crap for about 15 seconds. I'd checked over everything and found nothing untoward.
So I figured I'd try the ECU from my other Vitesse (80k miles, and sat since 1996) before changing anything else.
Swapped the ECU onto a better condition plate I had, and popped it in.
Car fired immediately and ran fine, so I'm guessing my ECU is finally suffering from the poor cracked soldering!
So that'll be something I'll need to get rebuilt, but it'll be fine on it's donor for now.
I mentioned I'd also bought a few replacement ignition parts so I figured I'd wack them on anyway.
I'd previously bought a genuine rotor cap and arm from LandRover Heritage, and was so disappointed with the quality.
The cap was so loose on the distributor, and the arm was really thin.
They weren't cheap either!
I thought I'd try out Remax, see if that was any better.
Landrover, Remax, and original.
The arm is much better, but still thinner than the original.
The rotor cap is identical to the LandRover one, I'd be shocked if they weren't made in exactly the same factory.
Just as sloppy, so I cleaned the carbon build up off my original and put it back on.
I'd say there's a tickle of colour on the ceramic now, so I'd count that as a win. (completely down to the ECU, the ignition stuff made absolutely no difference. )
I'm still going to try "7" plugs as that's what TVR recommended for a similar spec engine...
It's now back to running as well as it ever has, still shunts though. My next great plan is to try some new engine mounts see if that helps. I'm almost sure they're the originals and they are quite cracked but probably won't make a difference.
Gave it a little test run out to work last Friday in prep for another weekend at Bicester for Radwood, I've definitely overdone it as a venue this year...
I've done 6 events at Bicester this year alone so I think I'm qualified to rate shows there, and Radwood for me missed the mark.
Where they put the cars felt all wrong and just wasn't as fun as it should have been which is a real shame as it's my favourite era of cars these days, and had such promise!
But the weather was brilliant so still a fun day out.
The ECU change has also got me back to over 30mpg per tank too
the previous tank had dropped to under 27 I think. It's not really that important, but didn't feel right.
Joe
bangerhoarder said:
What’s the cost/effort look like for going to an aftermarket ECU? Any modern units that are relatively plug and play? With known issues with the old units, is that a possibility? Also a chance to change to more modern ignition?
After watching a lot of mighty car mods I did look into chucking a Haltec into it at one point, but then I was into basically completely redesigning the injection system and making my own wiring harness. there starter kit starts at £1200, then you're into all the sensors, hardware, and injectors so probably £3k all in, maybe more.Most just give up with the "flapper" system and go to the GEMs system which is just considered better.
KelvinatorNZ fitted a Speeduino ecu to his SD1 and that worked really nicely, and someone else I know has a megasquirt.
Something in me doesn't want to give up on the flapper system though. Apart from the shunting mine has always done it actually runs really nicely.
So onto the shunting. I had one thing I hadn't tried yet, maybe it was a mechanical issue and not a tuning issue at all.
I've already replaced all the rear end rubbers, the diff bushes, and all the gearbox mounts. I think the only mounts I haven't changed are the engine mounts.
In general the engine mounts looked fine, and unlike my A3 I couldn't push my engine backwards and forwards, so assumed everything was good.
I'd done some reading and read that some TVR owners were having to change theirs quite often due to heat build up from the manifold design. It's the same engine mount for SD1's as it is for all Rover V8 TVRs, and even the speed six cars.
So although the heat is less concentrated from the SD1 manifolds, the mounts still sits right below them. Mine must have taken the brunt of a lot of heat and movement over the years. ( and I assume they're the originals)
They do have some light cracking, but in general I didn't think they looked awful.
So I took the plunge and bought a replacement pair of mounts from a TVR specialist, claiming they've remade them from a better rubber... (E0053a part number if you're wondering.) I did want the SC power ones, despite being eye wateringly expensive it also appears like it's been a while since they've been stocked anywhere!
So these will have to do.
They arrived a few weeks ago but I'd been putting off installing them as I thought it wouldn't make much of a difference but I had a spare afternoon today so why not.
It's also a bit of a pig to do in the car, requiring the engine to be lifted from the subframe high enough to clear the studs on the mounts. The SD1 also has brace bars from the engine mounts to the subframe where the anti roll bar bolts through making it even more tricky to change them.
The SD1's tin sump also makes lifting just the engine a pain too!
But eventually with the engine lifted from the front sump mounting edge on a jack, I had them out.
Now compared to the new one you can see how sagged they are.
And the new ones fitted back in.
I made my dad take the first test drive while I tided up as he tends to drive in the lower part of the rev range where the shunting is the worst. Especially coasting back to an idle speed in gear. If you keep it over 1500RPM it's absolutely fine.
To my surprise and delight he pulled back in and said he couldn't feel anything, so I got changed and tried it for myself.
And damn it it'll coast in gear now to idle and pull itself along without shunting. It'll also now hold 1500rpm without shunting, so I'm pretty confident now that all this trouble was the bloody engine mounts!
I'll give it an extended test tomorrow to really confirm, but if it's sorted I think it's one of a few Vitesses now that's actually running as it should!
Joe
bolidemichael said:
How very satisfying, Joe (subject to confirmation!)
So after driving to Nottingham to see a friend I think I now have an accurate idea of where it's at. So it's not completely solved the issue, you can still feel something at 1500rpm when on incredibly light load, but what it has done is completely remove the drama from it. Before you'd have to clutch in it got so bad, now it's just a little movement that doesn't get any worse. No different to quite a few cars I've driven (most notably a new rental Fiat 500 hybrid that had a right wobble at a certain RPM! ) so I'm still pretty happy with that.
What it has solved completely is the low speed to idle behavior. Especially coming up to, and going over speed bumps. Now apart from the scraping height issue it'll behave itself.
Now speaking of the ride height...
Despite me complaining I can't get over speed bumps, in my head I'm about 10mm too high at the front from being level.
So it's good news that my new front suspension is apparently impending.
It's out being coating at the moment, and should only be a few weeks from being ready.
But then again Bilstein have had them for almost a year, so not the speediest of turn arounds!
Bobberoo said:
Such a great car, and I love your attention to detail!!
Cheers There's still so much that I want to do, so hopefully it'll only get better! Oh I almost forgot, while browsing facebook marketplace recently I came across the motherload of weird BBS things...
Proper, genuine, period correct, Turbofans!
Now I know my lips are too small to make them really look how they're suppose too, and they're waay to wide but I still kinda love them, they're so ridiculous. Might pop them on for a show or two...
Joe
I love the insanity of the Turbofans.
From my own aesthetic standpoint I think it looks best on it’s original wheels, however as these are bolt on items why not have some fun.
It doesn’t detract from the car or your efforts at all.
It’s still looking beautiful & love the attention to detail on the small stuff.
Got to be a contender for best SD1 out there.
From my own aesthetic standpoint I think it looks best on it’s original wheels, however as these are bolt on items why not have some fun.
It doesn’t detract from the car or your efforts at all.
It’s still looking beautiful & love the attention to detail on the small stuff.
Got to be a contender for best SD1 out there.
Always a pleasure to see more of this car, its such a stunner.
Regarding the shunting; if what you still have a a slight surging, don't discount the throttle potentiometer. Check its in spec first, and maybe try another if it doesn't help. They are well known for causing surging at low throttle cruise situations.
As mentioned, an aftermarket ECU is the ultimate solution for most engine issues, but i totally understand the desire to keep the flapper going. For me there is a charm to the flapper system, and everyone is so quick to rubbish it when it goes wrong, but when its all working in harmony it does a decent job for what is basically an early 80s analogue injection system.
Regarding the shunting; if what you still have a a slight surging, don't discount the throttle potentiometer. Check its in spec first, and maybe try another if it doesn't help. They are well known for causing surging at low throttle cruise situations.
As mentioned, an aftermarket ECU is the ultimate solution for most engine issues, but i totally understand the desire to keep the flapper going. For me there is a charm to the flapper system, and everyone is so quick to rubbish it when it goes wrong, but when its all working in harmony it does a decent job for what is basically an early 80s analogue injection system.
bolidemichael said:
Those Turbofans are so, so cool.
Kelvinator, is the flapper system similar to the one that you resolved on the TVR Tamsin?
Thankfully not, that was Bosch K-Jetronic mechanical injection. The Rover uses Bosch L-Jetronic which is proper EFI, but the ECU is all analogue ins and outs, no real processing, just working off a pre-set criteria depending on sensor input.Kelvinator, is the flapper system similar to the one that you resolved on the TVR Tamsin?
The term "flapper" comes from the Airflow Meter which has a flap inside it, which opens and closes depending on how much air is being ingested by the engine. The ECU reads how far open the flap is and adjusts fuelling accordingly. The later Land/Range Rover V8s replaced flapper with a smarter "hotwire" system, getting rid of the analogue system.
Edited by KelvinatorNZ on Monday 18th September 19:47
Stick Legs said:
I love the insanity of the Turbofans.
From my own aesthetic standpoint I think it looks best on it’s original wheels, however as these are bolt on items why not have some fun.
It doesn’t detract from the car or your efforts at all.
It’s still looking beautiful & love the attention to detail on the small stuff.
Got to be a contender for best SD1 out there.
They're so bonkers, my dad was teasing me saying that they might have been better if they had stayed an unobtainable item...From my own aesthetic standpoint I think it looks best on it’s original wheels, however as these are bolt on items why not have some fun.
It doesn’t detract from the car or your efforts at all.
It’s still looking beautiful & love the attention to detail on the small stuff.
Got to be a contender for best SD1 out there.
I know what you mean it's a cleaner look with the original wheels, but that's the joy of bolt on mods!
Cheers
KelvinatorNZ said:
Always a pleasure to see more of this car, its such a stunner.
Regarding the shunting; if what you still have a a slight surging, don't discount the throttle potentiometer. Check its in spec first, and maybe try another if it doesn't help. They are well known for causing surging at low throttle cruise situations.
As mentioned, an aftermarket ECU is the ultimate solution for most engine issues, but i totally understand the desire to keep the flapper going. For me there is a charm to the flapper system, and everyone is so quick to rubbish it when it goes wrong, but when its all working in harmony it does a decent job for what is basically an early 80s analogue injection system.
I read your handy guide and did your little mod to move the track, and tried another also sadly remained the same. Regarding the shunting; if what you still have a a slight surging, don't discount the throttle potentiometer. Check its in spec first, and maybe try another if it doesn't help. They are well known for causing surging at low throttle cruise situations.
As mentioned, an aftermarket ECU is the ultimate solution for most engine issues, but i totally understand the desire to keep the flapper going. For me there is a charm to the flapper system, and everyone is so quick to rubbish it when it goes wrong, but when its all working in harmony it does a decent job for what is basically an early 80s analogue injection system.
Yeah I'm stubborn enough to want to get it to work, and yeah there's been moments when it's driven beautifully.
Cheers
bolidemichael said:
Those Turbofans are so, so cool.
Kelvinator, is the flapper system similar to the one that you resolved on the TVR Tamsin?
They're just 80's bonkers, walking through the pits at the FOS really didn't help, I had to find some Kelvinator, is the flapper system similar to the one that you resolved on the TVR Tamsin?
KelvinatorNZ said:
Thankfully not, that was Bosch K-Jetronic mechanical injection. The Rover uses Bosch L-Jetronic which is proper EFI, but the ECU is all analogue ins and outs, no real processing, just working off a pre-set criteria depending on sensor input.
The term "flapper" comes from the Airflow Meter which has a flap inside it, which opens and closes depending on how much air is being ingested by the engine. The ECU reads how far open the flap is and adjusts fuelling accordingly. The later Land/Range Rover V8s replaced flapper with a smarter "hotwire" system, getting rid of the analogue system.
I spoke with a few people about the shunting, and the current theory is that the combination of the back pulses of the hot cam are causing a pressure wave, and are pulsing the AFM flap...The term "flapper" comes from the Airflow Meter which has a flap inside it, which opens and closes depending on how much air is being ingested by the engine. The ECU reads how far open the flap is and adjusts fuelling accordingly. The later Land/Range Rover V8s replaced flapper with a smarter "hotwire" system, getting rid of the analogue system.
Edited by KelvinatorNZ on Monday 18th September 19:47
So by talking about it again, you'd be right in guessing, my shunting is back, and I can't really work out what's changed! All I did was take all the interior out and put it back again!
So after attending an SD1 club event at the Jet Age Museum in Gloucestershire my journey home was a bit more eventful than I'd have liked...
The Vitesse was driving beautifully and I'd spent the day boasting about how I'd solved my shunting after a few other owners were having similar issues.
I set off home after having a nice day talking about cars. But while doing a little pull back onto the motorway my low coolant light came on, annoying but I know that sometimes the level in the expansion tank drops below the first sensor so I wasn't too concerned.
After a few miles on the motorway I was greeted by the faint sweet sickly smell of coolant...
I dropped off the motorway onto the A-roads and pulled over to check the level. I could still see coolant in the tank, so I carried on home but with the smell slowly getting stronger.
It of course got me home with no hint of the temp gauge moving, but I had a horrible feeling I knew exactly what was wrong.
I'd previously de-rusted and painted the infamous bulkhead to heater matrix coolant pipes, and these were both still dryish (there's a teeny weep from one of the seals, but it has done that for my entire ownership without getting worse. )
It wasn't immediately obvious and I really couldn't get a picture, but putting my hand up the demister vents in the footwells I could feel wet.
The heater matrix had finally given up.
Now I wasn't entirely surprised, as for my entire ownership the heater had been rubbish, it would barely get warm, and did a terrible job of clearing the windscreen, I'd also tried many times to flush it with the hose to no avail.
Now this was on the 24th of September. I've read what a big job this is, requiring basically the entire interior including the dash has to come out.
A more sensible person would have parked up the car and started to plan for a job for the winter. But of course I'm not quite done with it this year, with a photoshoot booked on the 8th of October, and an indoor show in November...
So basically I had 2 weeks to get it done. I spent the first week plotting. Ordering paint, heater foam, a new heater matrix (we'll come back to that) as well as various fixings etc.
I had planned to have it apart and back together in one weekend, how foolish was I!
Interior as I started, looking lovely, but hiding a horrible secret.
Start of the strip, steering column parts stripped off, radio, trip computer, both glove boxes, and centre console out!
There's quite a bit of interior to remove!
All the wiring for the dash has to be disconnected, then carefully passed back through the dash as you remove it.
I took a lot of pictures to make sure I knew where everything goes back too.
And with just 3 bolts either side, and a little help, the dash comes out.
I couldn't resist poking the old foam, which had degraded awfully. It had been spitting bits of foam out at me for the last few years!
Now It only took me 2 hours to get to this point so my confidence was increasing.
I was hoping to leave the seats and carpet in, but that was soon dashed when a hand under the carpet revealed soaked sound deadening.
So the front seats, carpet, and sound deadening also came out.
Floors still looking mint after I last saw them 5 years ago
so little victories.Now you just have to drop all the coolant, and blow out the matrix so you don't make the swimming pool in the footwell any worse!
The HVAC unit is then held to the floor with 2 bolts, although one of mine was just placed in as it's missing the captive nut in the body! Bloody Rover quality eh, would explain a little rattle though! It also has 2 studs that pass through the bulkhead which have the brackets for the brake lines attached to them. There's also a foamed bracket that seals it to the heater blower box mounted behind the passenger glove box. The foam was gross.
My car is also a factory Air-Con car. luckily long since drained, so those pipes also need disconnecting. It also means the whole unit is completely different to every other SD1 which did cause some headaches...
The HVAC unit is a bit of a beast but came out eventually.
A lot more complicated than the one I changed on a mini before!
I left the heater matrix removal for this point just so I didn't have coolant everywhere...
It was practically rust welded into the unit with the old foam around the matrix, and required sawing out.
Now I'd ordered a new matrix, that was suppose to be universal for all SD1's...
It was not.
This really threw my timing plan out of the window, so I regrouped and tried to come up with a new plan. There was no way I was getting it done in one weekend.
Joe
Gassing Station | Readers' Cars | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff