1986 Saab 900 Turbo - White

1986 Saab 900 Turbo - White

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danllama

5,728 posts

143 months

Tuesday 20th November 2018
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Also enjoyed that last update. Playing with the coolant/radiator is one of my favourite jobs on cars, nice and simple.

shalmaneser

5,936 posts

196 months

Tuesday 20th November 2018
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I updated my e36 M3 with EV6 injectors from the old EV1's and it made quite a difference to both driveability and mpg and power. Much smoother idle when cold, too.

anywho, this is a great thread, enjoying the journey!

JimmyJam

2,324 posts

220 months

Tuesday 20th November 2018
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I spotted your Saab I think a few weeks ago parked outside Kew Gardens, looks brilliant. Be good to catch it at Classics and Cake one morning and hopefully I'll have my black 900 to make a nice pair!

Spinakerr

Original Poster:

1,184 posts

146 months

Tuesday 20th November 2018
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Thank you all for the comments, glad some of this tinkering is of interest!

Scooobydont said:
Brilliant write up, not often I read a thread from start to finish but this was one of them. Love it. Thanks for taking the time to document your journey with it.
I aspire to the level of mechnical wizardry on some threads here, but until the workshop is built it's likely to be much more about keeping everything running. It's good to document it here - I've already had several people say it's a modern 'service history' for the home mechanic!

Cambs_Stuart said:
Really good to see the updates to one of my favorite threads. So will you be using this beauty all through the winter?
Oh yes, my wife uses it a lot and will not be deterred by salt and cold - she says surely winter is what they were designed for! The heater was already the best of the fleet, with the recent sludgepurge it's even quicker to get up to temperature. Will have to fix those heated seat elements one day, but first it's time to get underneath it and coat everything in derustsealantpoxyevilgunkstuffprotector.

danllama said:
Also enjoyed that last update. Playing with the coolant/radiator is one of my favourite jobs on cars, nice and simple.
It was on this, yes, though I didn't tempt fate by pulling the engine block drain. Maybe another time, when I have a spare one in case of breakage.

shalmaneser said:
I updated my e36 M3 with EV6 injectors from the old EV1's and it made quite a difference to both driveability and mpg and power. Much smoother idle when cold, too.

anywho, this is a great thread, enjoying the journey!
Good stuff! I did the EV1 to EV6 swap for my Alfa Romeo 164 and it really helped smooth power delivery and fuel efficiency, hence my interest for the Saab. Reading up, they seem to be a bit more sensitive and the pump is at 2.5Bar, but I believe I have sourced the correct quad-pintle replacement that will say 'These are not the droids you're looking for, move along' to the system.

JimmyJam said:
I spotted your Saab I think a few weeks ago parked outside Kew Gardens, looks brilliant. Be good to catch it at Classics and Cake one morning and hopefully I'll have my black 900 to make a nice pair!
Yes she's often there for work, though it gets around a bit! One of us always tries to get to Classics and Cake, it really is the best kind of car meet. Plus cake.

One final easy fix - door handle backing plate swapped. Much better.

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EJH

934 posts

210 months

Wednesday 21st November 2018
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Spinakerr said:
Yes she's often there for work, though it gets around a bit! One of us always tries to get to Classics and Cake, it really is the best kind of car meet. Plus cake.
It's the only car meeting to go to; if you see me (the Honey Monster-framed chap, usually in shorts, with the hairdresser (cabrio) 3.2 911) please say hi!

Spinakerr

Original Poster:

1,184 posts

146 months

Saturday 24th November 2018
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Sending out and SOS to Saab-minded PHers:

Bit of a problem in Saabland - on the way to the Ace Cafe Norse meet the car started cutting out, strangely the engine was still running and could be caught with a 'rolling bump', but it was as if the key had been turned off. This happened regardless of speed, gear or whether the car was changing gear/braking etc.

My wife limped it home but I hopped in for a bit of the return leg - there is no boost! No turbo or revs past 2500rpm and the boost needle stays in the white zone. To be clear - there was/is no smoke, noises or otherwise that would resemble turbo failure, it's just not even attempting to spool.

The car has been functioning well for a week since the coolant and sensor work, and nothing else had been worked on.

Prior symptoms include APC solenoid chattering away to itself (stopped if unplugged, naturally), some uneven idling and occasional hiccuping (whether hot or cold).

I've checked all the new vacuum hoses are on securely and that the APC wiring is actually attached - from a quick scour of the internet this could be a wealth of items:

Knock sensor
APC unit
APC solenoid
Grounds/earths
Distributor/rotor leads (all checked previously)
Plugs (Replaced recently, will check the correct NGK plugs)
Fuel issue
Airflow sensors

Any pointers gratefully received!


Spinakerr

Original Poster:

1,184 posts

146 months

Saturday 1st December 2018
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The Saab is testing me. I'm appealing to the Saab experts on here for some further help at the bottom...

I thought I had identified the cause of the stalling as a short on the distributor Hall sensor wiring. If it was moved at all, the car died:

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I ordered a new three pin Bosch connector, prepped the wires and luckily it all went together nicely. I put some heatshrink on the ground connector to give it a bit more durability and less exposed wire.

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I don't have the official Bosch crimping tool, so had a little jog with the extension lead and soldered them on for good measure.

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That all went back together with salvaged shielding. Nice secure fit:

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With this securely back on the side of the distributor I checked the plugs again (fine, right plug and right mixture colour), checked all the vacuum lines and scraped off the verdigris under the distributor cap and rotor. The car started and ran, but with it's customary idle hiccuping. In neutral it ran through the rev range, but not matter which way I prodded the wiring on the distributor it didn't falter or stumble.

I decided to check the timing, and followed the guide on Saab forums in combination with the Haynes book of lies. I tried to turn the engine from the crack 30mm nut but there is not a socket this side of Trollhatten that would fit there!

Tried a spanner:

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No luck. So I stuck it in 5th and yanked it like a recalcitrant white hippo down the driveway, muttering. My neighbours said hello. I scowled and slipped, falling face down onto my tool box, scattering sockets. My neighbours wisely shuffled off quickly.

Turned engine until I felt the compression stroke felt on cylinder 1, rotor in the correct position pointing to 1, also an old tippex mark on the flywheel was on the correct number per the manual (around 17 degrees BTDC).

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So, I disconnected the vacuum hose, put it all back together and started it up. Markings were off under the timing light, so I loosened the distributor nut and rotated a bit - car idled better and the tippex mark lined up with the casing mark correctly. IT's a 13mm holding nut and only the slimmest of vintage spanners managed to loosen and tighten it!

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Revved it manually and no issues, slight dip in rev on deceleration. Reconnected vacuum hose, decided to go for a drive to see how it felt.

Unfortunately back to the original habits: It idles fine and revs in neutral, but problems arise in motion.

The car can't rev above 2000rpm in all gears, and the boost doesn't kick in at all. I can hear a wastegate or similar allowing air to exit. The car attempts to stall between changing gears. If driven gently this is lessened, the harder the accelerator is pushed the more likely it is to stall.

The APC solenoid is not clicking at all now. I unplugged the APC two pin plug on top of the radiator and the car behaves exactly the same - liable to stall.

I checked the bypass valve by disconnecting its hose from the APC and it has resistance when sucked.

The APC is a 7524127 unit, and this is a Bosch B202 car.

I wondered after the Hall sensor wiring what else I could have disturbed, so checked all the vacuum hoses on the car (again), checked every hose clip and prodded the AAC on top of the thermostat. No change, or stall.

Could the APC solenoid finally have given up having chattered away for a few months? Shall I take off all the valves again and recheck resistances?

It feels like the car is in a primitive limp mode, has anyone experience this before or have any pointers? Many thanks in advance.


MJK 24

5,648 posts

237 months

Saturday 1st December 2018
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Is the ignition coil failing under load?

Veeayt

3,139 posts

206 months

Saturday 1st December 2018
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Great car! Is it still with an overpainted badge though?

Spinakerr

Original Poster:

1,184 posts

146 months

Saturday 1st December 2018
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Crisis somewhat averted - I was convinced the issue was something simple, an item disturbed or wire knocked out of alignment.

Checking some of the hoses, the main air inlet jubilee clip offered no resistant, and closer inspection with a hesitant finger revealed it was not sealed at all.

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There are also many perforations on the underside, but when reattached with a cable tie the engine ran much better, and a short drive confirmed it was boosting into the yellow zone as it had done before these shenanigans.

I've ordered a significant silicone replacement set, as if this one is bad the others won't be far behind, and we can then continue the quest for full boost into... The Red Zone.


Spinakerr

Original Poster:

1,184 posts

146 months

Saturday 1st December 2018
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MJK 24 said:
Is the ignition coil failing under load?
No the coil is all within spec, nothing amiss there though some of the HT leads have gouges and splits, so they are being replaced.

Veeayt said:
Great car! Is it still with an overpainted badge though?
Yes the whole bonnet needs redoing really, as do two suspect wheel arches but perhaps it's wortht he intermediate therapy of a proper badge in the interim!

Spinakerr

Original Poster:

1,184 posts

146 months

Friday 14th December 2018
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Christmas has come early for the Saab - silicone Do88 hoses, jubilee clips aplenty, new Bougicord HT leads and a good quality boot handle.

I'm inordinately excited, but that may be down to a breakfast of Strepsils.

Hopefully the used EV6 injectors from the US (yes, really) will arrive just in time for the weekend's operations too...

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Spinakerr

Original Poster:

1,184 posts

146 months

Monday 31st December 2018
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Saturday heralded the first few hours of peace in the holiday period. That meant one thing - time to Saab.

There are two running problems at present - a slightly rough idle and a turbo that only goes midway, which is a failsafe on the system when something is awry.

First off, replacing the HT leads with all new Bougicord items. There were a number of splits in the old leads, and one was not a Bougicord, so they were changed.

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No real change, but that made me feel better. Old leads retained just in case.

Next up, silicone replacements for all the intake and turbo hoses. I went with standard black from do88, and I was impressed with the quality - a many-layered material with some give that looks like they will outlive the car.

I carefully photographed each original hose and position, and ensured I had matching replacements, plus I took the opportunity to replace the rabidly clattering APC items with silicone. I know how you all like photos of this kind of stuff: behold;

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I think all the items that came off were original, and many had cracked, split, deformed or otherwise were in a lifecycle tailspin covered in dregs of oil, filth and nonsense.

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Darkness fell. I decided reassembling by torchlight wouldn't do, so I pushed the car out of the way and took all the components inside for the night. As the hoseclips were all high quality items, I drenched them in Gunk and gave them a good scrub. Fortunately they all responded positively and were in good working order.

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In the morning I inspected the Bosch MAF, a prime suspect for idling/stuttering and hesitation issues, and of course it was caked in nastiness. There are protective grilles either end, the retaining clips for these carefully pried out to reveal:

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MAF cleaner sparingly applied, et voila:

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Daylight revealed a number of clips, connectors and hoses elsewhere that needed replacement or tidying, and with the air system removed access was never better. Simple things, but it keeps me happy. Some were about to give:

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Turbo was also in good order with no play, looks like it had been replaced at some point:

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A fair can of UBIK carb cleaner (note: this does not actually exist) to other pipes and parts later, I started to reassemble. I only had to trim the three-holed turbo elbow to fit, all the other went in with a bit of effort.

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Phew. Did this make a difference? Well...

Not really for the idle, but turbo boost is no longer stuttering when midway into the yellow zone on the gauge, with a definite improvement in delivery.

I expected the turbo to still not be boosting correctly, as there a number of split vacuum lines under the dash for the pressure regulator (and perhaps blow- by solenoid?), so I have new hoses for that when I get a day to spend upside down in the passenger seat.

I also think the injectors might be the last remaining culprit of the idle, one ticks louder than others and they are all original. I have some EV6 quad pintles that can go in to hopefully find some improvement, and at the least eliminate that item.

Any other tips from Saab officianados?








Cambs_Stuart

2,882 posts

85 months

Monday 31st December 2018
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Good work, and yes. I do like a work in progress engine bay. And an engine bay full of new shiny silicone hoses.

Cambs_Stuart

2,882 posts

85 months

Monday 31st December 2018
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I'm no expert, but if you had a failing or blocked injector, wouldn't one of the plugs be a different colour to the rest? Either much darker if the cylinder was too rich or lighter if it was too lean.

Spinakerr

Original Poster:

1,184 posts

146 months

Saturday 5th January 2019
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Yes it's tricky - it's an occasional misfire, and the idle doesn't waver too much, which convinced me it it was something to do with a single cylinder, but looking at what is left to replace, it may need more diagnosis of MAF/AMM/ECU rather than the hard components, which have largely checked out fine so far (excluding the Turbo system).

New year's day brought the traditional dilemma - shall we actually get up, stagger through any residual head fug and get to Brooklands? Well, this year I was gently encouraged, and we managed to get there. A fantastic day - highly recommended - we even got a discount due to the usual traffic at entry. I would liken it to Pistonheads itself as the variety is incredible - Astons rub shoulders with tatty Pandas, 80s saloons next to American muscle, and plenty in the museums and exhibits to poke around.

Some highlights:

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The car behaved well, fan kicking in correctly in the heavy traffic and no other tribulations other than the bedamned idle. So upon return home, and as darkness fell, I 'just popped outside for a moment to check something'... more to follow.


Spinakerr

Original Poster:

1,184 posts

146 months

Sunday 6th January 2019
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Fresh from Brooklands, at 3pm on New Year's Day I decided to replace some final ignition components as the occasional miss at idle had entirely eaten my soul.

First up, the original rotor arm looked healthy and Boschish but was an unknown, and happily the correct NOS item showed up for 4.99, so on it went.

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Luckily it came off with a few gently taps. These are prone to getting stuck on.

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I also decided the Bosch distributor cap, which I had swapped over 6 month ago, needed a verdigris removal with a dremel. Fortunately a few seconds on each contacts brought them up to scratch.

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The started up fine... but still had the blasted hiccup. As they say in Trollhaten, skit.

By now it was 4pm on new year's day. My wife had the fire lit and was putting the kettle on. It was the final day before I went back to work, and it was getting dark and cold.

I decided to change the fuel injectors.

Having had great results swapping out old EV1 Bosch injectors on my Alfa Romeo 164, I was disappointed to learn there was not extensive interest in trying EV6 (quad-jet) injectors on the Saab 900. Lots of threads and experiments with bigger injectors for higher BHP, part of the turbo upgrades, tuning etc. but nothing for improving general mpg and throttle response on a standard engine.

In November I consulted one of the online databases of Bosch injectors (Stan Weiss) to find something more modern with the same flow rates as the originals, 0280150706s, which looked decidedly crusty in their original harnesses, at 234cc/hour at 3 bar. Notably, I think the Saab pumps of this era work at 2.5bar, so a lot of double checking ensued. While EV6 injectors from later Saabs probably worked (some suggested the NA 2nd gen 900s), I decided on a slightly closer, and much cheaper, set of 0280155715 (235 cc/hr). From a 5.7L V8 in America. Even with shipping charges and a tax they the price of two burgers and came from a reputable source as fully working. These also came with the same wiring connectors, thank goodness.

Magnetic lights hastily arranged on the bonnet like a closing scene of Batteries Not Included, I got to work.

Two 12mm bolts held the rail in, and all the clips and injectors wiggled free once a few vacuum lines and wires had been carefully moved out of the way.

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A little bit of fuel was captured by rags correctly positioned (thank you, Alfa memory) and the original injectors all came out without a fuss. Some of the O rings were well past their sell-by date, but luckily my new set came with new replacements.

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Old and new:

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Single vs quad jets. Saab always said 'Born From Jets', and this was probably more relevant:

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All in gently, clips checked and double checked, bolts tightened, pump primed a few cycles to ensure no leakage...

It runs. It runs well. It still misses, but somehow the engine is calmer. No vibrations. Hmm, further investigation is underway.

My wife has been running it for a week now and has said it no longer stumbles when the clutch is depressed, and doesn't have an fuel smell in the cabin (the return line runs through the headlining, which we don't have). It does still miss and occasionally hiccup, but so far the replacement has been a good one - no leaks and some improvements.

Next up...

Actually I don't know. When I unplugged the NTC sensor when the car was warm it ran better for 30 seconds, and previously I had only tested it when cold. I think I'll test it for a whole temperature cycle, as it looks original and older sensors can start to be shouty, cranky and opinionated.



anonymous-user

55 months

Sunday 6th January 2019
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A great read.

As frustrating as it can be, I find these problem hunting exercises very satisfying and you'll feel like billy big balls when you crack it hehe

TWPC

842 posts

162 months

Friday 1st February 2019
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dme123 said:
A great read.

As frustrating as it can be, I find these problem hunting exercises very satisfying and you'll feel like billy big balls when you crack it hehe
+1

Well done for persevering Spinakerr.

What's the state of play now?

carinaman

21,329 posts

173 months

Friday 1st February 2019
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Thanks for the updates and Brooklands photos.