Citroen C4 VTS 180 in bargain-basement blind bidding frenzy!
Discussion
Shadow R1 said:
Great stuff. 
Enjoy your write ups.
Really? You must be easily amused Enjoy your write ups.
confused_buyer said:
On some of these (and the Pug 307/308) the Condensor is quite easy to do. You'll probably need the front bumper off to get access to the connectors and maybe the top retaining bolt but if there is room in the engine bay the radiator can just be pushed backwards and the condensor pulls straight out. It isn't actually held in by anything at all other than the radiator its self.
We'll find out; condenser ordered earlier on, should be here tomorrow. Fitting it and getting air-con working is just ahead of eating and drinking on my list of daily priorities. I did the condenser on the 407, and that was a doddle.Spinakerr said:
Great read, I have to say I never knew of the car until this post, but after conquering my disbelief that you've bought a Citroen without an 'X' in the model name, this looks to be a good hack. The Civic Type R resemblances are plentiful but it has definite charm. Good luck with the AC hunt - sure these are primer breaker territory given their age?
They're pretty rare. I think there are only 250 in the UK, and there have never been more than 600 if you believe the stats. And yes, it does feel odd sans 'X'!The Civic Type-R would be quicker and more 'hot-hatchish' without doubt, but when it's £900 vs. £3000, I'm not sure the difference is justified. The C4 is proving very likable for a 'modern' - surprisingly so.
I imagine we lose a few C4s a day to scrap, so I should be able to source a cubby box to replace the CD changer under the armrest.
Spumfry said:
Nice left-field choice, I've always thought these were good looking cars. Good write up too - worthy of Doug deMuro, introducing us to 'all the quirks and features, of which there are many'!
The '180' stands for 180ps, rather than 'nearly 180bhp'.
I'll have to do a YT video with big bright colourful letters across the thumbnail saying "Why the Citroen C4 VTS is both rubbish and great", or something...The '180' stands for 180ps, rather than 'nearly 180bhp'.
I could be wrong, but I 'think' they're 177bhp DIN/PS, which is why some places quote them at 174bhp (imperial). Could be wrong. Moot point really, as I don't think it's got more than 165bhp anyway
We'll find out soon as I have a dyno...trails said:
Saw one of these today before I read this, very entertaining. I hope there are no nasty surprises in store for you
I don't think you can get nasty surprises at £900! And with the nature of the other cars I own, this one is as sensible as they come...I'll keep this updated, with all the ups and downs. Not as many downs as S0.01HP's Impreza, but there is still time!
Kitchski said:
I don't think you can get nasty surprises at £900! And with the nature of the other cars I own, this one is as sensible as they come...
I'll keep this updated, with all the ups and downs. Not as many downs as S0.01HP's Impreza, but there is still time!
you'd need to go some!I'll keep this updated, with all the ups and downs. Not as many downs as S0.01HP's Impreza, but there is still time!
Good buy! I really liked the ex S100HP VTS, in fact I can't really remember why I sold it! Certainly one of the more interesting modern hatchbacks, even if the engine is a bit under-powered compared to it's competition.
I ditched the CD changer too and replaced with a box of tricks to stream music from my phone. Worked quite well.
I ditched the CD changer too and replaced with a box of tricks to stream music from my phone. Worked quite well.
CarlosV8 said:
Good buy! I really liked the ex S100HP VTS, in fact I can't really remember why I sold it! Certainly one of the more interesting modern hatchbacks, even if the engine is a bit under-powered compared to it's competition.
I ditched the CD changer too and replaced with a box of tricks to stream music from my phone. Worked quite well.
You dodged a bullet. I believe the gearbox exploded and it was sent for scrap.I ditched the CD changer too and replaced with a box of tricks to stream music from my phone. Worked quite well.
S100HP said:
You dodged a bullet. I believe the gearbox exploded and it was sent for scrap.
I didn't want to mention that on this thread! I think it was the clutch that went in spectacular fashion. But from what I gather it was fixed as I got offered it back a few years ago. I was tempted but decided against it. The guy that bought hated it with a passion so I wouldn't be surprised if it then got scrapped.
CarlosV8 said:
S100HP said:
You dodged a bullet. I believe the gearbox exploded and it was sent for scrap.
I didn't want to mention that on this thread! I think it was the clutch that went in spectacular fashion. But from what I gather it was fixed as I got offered it back a few years ago. I was tempted but decided against it. The guy that bought hated it with a passion so I wouldn't be surprised if it then got scrapped.
Incidentally, Peugeot put the same engine in the 307 as well in Feline trim:
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...
Surprising amount of love for the typically-unpopular French motor 
The engine is a trifle underpowered, yeah. Simon's made ~163bhp on the dyno IIRC, so I'm not expecting much from this. Would go against the grain of PSA engines always delivering on the dyno, though, as normally they equal or even better their book figures.
The engine itself is from the EW family, which replaced the XU series. They're visually quite similar to their predecessor, and even share some componentry (which is great, cos it means I can get my rocks off about the fact there are some BX parts in my engine......mmmmmmmmm).
EW engines are normally found under the bonnet of regular Citroen C5 and Peugeot 307/407 models (the 14 of them that weren't specced with a diesel engine). The version in the C4 VTS is the EW10J4S. Being a 2.0 variant, it carries the 'EW10' designation (EW7 being a 1.8). The 'J' refers to it being petrol injection (I think), the '4' is 4 valves per cylinder, and the 'S' means Sport (I'm making that bit up, but it could do, couldn't it?
The lineage through the line of peaky performance PSA 1.9/2.0 engines is pretty clear!
XU9J4 as fitted to my BX 16v, along with the Pug 405 Mi16 (ph1) and 309 GTi 16 - 1905cc / 160bhp
XU10J4 as fitted to ZX 16v, 306 S16, ph2 405 Mi16 and early Xantia VSX 16v - 1998cc / 155bhp
XU10J4RS as fitted to Peugeot 306 GTi-6, Citroen Xsara VTS and (very rarely) to ZX 16v 'Dakar' - 1998cc / 167bhp
And then the EW10J4S, as fitted to the 206 GTi 180 (or RC, depending on your location), the 307RC (or 'Feline'....WTF?!) and lastly, the funny looking C4 VTS - 1997cc / 177bhp. It's the only example in this lineup with variable valve timing - all the others are just heavy breathers!
Rumour on the street is that Citroen weren't afforded any real budget to create the 'hot' C4 with, possibly because aside from the AX GT and Saxo VTS, every hot Citroen up to that point were complete sales flops, regardless of how good they were (or were not), depending on your viewpoint. If you go back to the ZX 16v or Xsara VTS compared with their mainstream equivalents, they often had bespoke suspension, steering and braking setups. The C4 had to make do with the bits from a 206 GTi 180, simply carried over. That's why it only has 5 gears; the 206 doesn't have the space for a 6-speeder.
In an era of five-pot turbo Focus STs, 250bhp Astra VXRs and Golf GTis with 200bhp minimum, 177bhp and only 149lbft in a C4 weighing in at 1350kg doesn't sound much. And you'd be right, it isn't!
Performance-wise, my impressions so far is that it likes to rev (feels like it's still pulling hard at 7k rpm, just before the 7600rpm limiter, but whether it actually is or not, I couldn't say!) However, it doesn't actually sound like it likes to rev, which is a crying shame, as all the above engines all emitted snorty, growling 4-pot DOHC induction notes. This one.....it just doesn't! I also seem to remember Si's (and Carl you might be able to confirm or dismiss this) used to make a little 'pop' from the exhaust on each hard gear change, which this car also doesn't do.
To that end, induction and minor exhaust tinkering might be a thing of the future. Nothing major, just a little bit to bring out the proper French hot-hatch sound effects of the 1990's.
The gearing is very short (4k revs @ 80mph), but that does at least mean you can pick up speed very easily at lower revs/speeds - far faster than you'd accredit a low-torque, high-revs lump like this to be capable of.
It's actually quite interesting as a car, because it looks quite modern, even now (to my eyes anyway). It's funky and different, and you'd expect it to be powered by some hybrid hydrogen hypercelled rotary.....thing. And yet, it sounds totally old school! The exhaust rasps a bit like a 306, the gearchange feels old and the whole 'character' of the thing is that of a car about 10/15 years older.
The only annoying thing so far, is the rev counter. It glows bright red when you're redlining it. And, by red lining it, I mean once you've already hit the limiter. Yeah, thanks for the warning....
The engine is a trifle underpowered, yeah. Simon's made ~163bhp on the dyno IIRC, so I'm not expecting much from this. Would go against the grain of PSA engines always delivering on the dyno, though, as normally they equal or even better their book figures.
The engine itself is from the EW family, which replaced the XU series. They're visually quite similar to their predecessor, and even share some componentry (which is great, cos it means I can get my rocks off about the fact there are some BX parts in my engine......mmmmmmmmm).
EW engines are normally found under the bonnet of regular Citroen C5 and Peugeot 307/407 models (the 14 of them that weren't specced with a diesel engine). The version in the C4 VTS is the EW10J4S. Being a 2.0 variant, it carries the 'EW10' designation (EW7 being a 1.8). The 'J' refers to it being petrol injection (I think), the '4' is 4 valves per cylinder, and the 'S' means Sport (I'm making that bit up, but it could do, couldn't it?
The lineage through the line of peaky performance PSA 1.9/2.0 engines is pretty clear!
XU9J4 as fitted to my BX 16v, along with the Pug 405 Mi16 (ph1) and 309 GTi 16 - 1905cc / 160bhp
XU10J4 as fitted to ZX 16v, 306 S16, ph2 405 Mi16 and early Xantia VSX 16v - 1998cc / 155bhp
XU10J4RS as fitted to Peugeot 306 GTi-6, Citroen Xsara VTS and (very rarely) to ZX 16v 'Dakar' - 1998cc / 167bhp
And then the EW10J4S, as fitted to the 206 GTi 180 (or RC, depending on your location), the 307RC (or 'Feline'....WTF?!) and lastly, the funny looking C4 VTS - 1997cc / 177bhp. It's the only example in this lineup with variable valve timing - all the others are just heavy breathers!
Rumour on the street is that Citroen weren't afforded any real budget to create the 'hot' C4 with, possibly because aside from the AX GT and Saxo VTS, every hot Citroen up to that point were complete sales flops, regardless of how good they were (or were not), depending on your viewpoint. If you go back to the ZX 16v or Xsara VTS compared with their mainstream equivalents, they often had bespoke suspension, steering and braking setups. The C4 had to make do with the bits from a 206 GTi 180, simply carried over. That's why it only has 5 gears; the 206 doesn't have the space for a 6-speeder.
In an era of five-pot turbo Focus STs, 250bhp Astra VXRs and Golf GTis with 200bhp minimum, 177bhp and only 149lbft in a C4 weighing in at 1350kg doesn't sound much. And you'd be right, it isn't!
Performance-wise, my impressions so far is that it likes to rev (feels like it's still pulling hard at 7k rpm, just before the 7600rpm limiter, but whether it actually is or not, I couldn't say!) However, it doesn't actually sound like it likes to rev, which is a crying shame, as all the above engines all emitted snorty, growling 4-pot DOHC induction notes. This one.....it just doesn't! I also seem to remember Si's (and Carl you might be able to confirm or dismiss this) used to make a little 'pop' from the exhaust on each hard gear change, which this car also doesn't do.
To that end, induction and minor exhaust tinkering might be a thing of the future. Nothing major, just a little bit to bring out the proper French hot-hatch sound effects of the 1990's.
The gearing is very short (4k revs @ 80mph), but that does at least mean you can pick up speed very easily at lower revs/speeds - far faster than you'd accredit a low-torque, high-revs lump like this to be capable of.
It's actually quite interesting as a car, because it looks quite modern, even now (to my eyes anyway). It's funky and different, and you'd expect it to be powered by some hybrid hydrogen hypercelled rotary.....thing. And yet, it sounds totally old school! The exhaust rasps a bit like a 306, the gearchange feels old and the whole 'character' of the thing is that of a car about 10/15 years older.
The only annoying thing so far, is the rev counter. It glows bright red when you're redlining it. And, by red lining it, I mean once you've already hit the limiter. Yeah, thanks for the warning....
I had a Xsara VTS and was desperate to want to buy one of these when they came out.
As you’ve realised, the really took a step backwards, apart from being a lot more modern (design, interior, spec etc.).
Unfortunately, even the Loeb edition couldn’t swing it for me, especially as they released those as a 1.6 petrol, too!
Your notes about the budget and 206 parts make sense! Interesting.
I hope it works out for you. An interesting buy.
As you’ve realised, the really took a step backwards, apart from being a lot more modern (design, interior, spec etc.).
Unfortunately, even the Loeb edition couldn’t swing it for me, especially as they released those as a 1.6 petrol, too!
Your notes about the budget and 206 parts make sense! Interesting.
I hope it works out for you. An interesting buy.
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