Discussion
Lockdown update... thought it was about time the Volvo got some love. So first of all, something very rare for my daily drivers:
20200321_170148 by CarlosV8, on Flickr
A wash! I even treated the tired looking grey trims. Doesn't come up too bad for 16 years old.
And then we come to the pile of parts I've been amassing over the past few months:
20200412_145239 by CarlosV8, on Flickr
On the suspension front there's Bilstein B4 dampers with new top mounts and rear ARB links - the aim is to get back to the factory ride and handling. And the other jobs are focused around the stereo, which include new front speakers and a Parrot bluetooth kit.
I started with the rear suspension. The bottom bolt put up a fight on both sides, but soon enough the old shock was out. New vs old:
20200412_152004 by CarlosV8, on Flickr
And fitted:
20200412_152731 by CarlosV8, on Flickr
As suspected, it looks like the ones that came off were the original “Volvo” items:
20200412_164115 by CarlosV8, on Flickr
Next, work on the stereo started. I've been getting some distortion through the front speakers so they needed to be replaced. I'm not an audiophile, so nothing fancy is going in, just some cheap Pioneer jobbies. The door card came off with only a couple of broken clips (I had spares ready anyway). The standard speaker sits in a housing riveted to the door - I read lots of people saying you had to drill these out and replace the whole housing, but I managed to get just the Volvo speaker out and then mounted the new speaker directly in the housing. With some quick wiring adaptors made up the replacement looks vaguely stock and there was no need to cut any of the original wiring:
20200329_142649 by CarlosV8, on Flickr
There was a little nick in the passenger side speaker cone, which I guess is where the distortion was coming from:
20200405_153607 by CarlosV8, on Flickr
Earlier in this thread I wrote about installing a Highway bluetooth/DAB unit, which connects to the stereo via an FM transmitter. On the whole I've been very happy with this cheap/quick solution, but it has it's limitations. It's perfect for my 30 minute commute, but on a longer journey you have to mess around with FM frequencies to maintain clear reception, which isn't ideal. In the back of mind I've always thought that a hardwired Parrot system would be a better choice, and when a kit came up cheap on Ebay I snapped it up with the intention of giving it a try.
Unfortunately it's not particularly simple job to fit the Parrot system, as the amp for my V50 sits in the boot. This means you need a connector lead to convert the amp wiring plugs to ISO, then run an ISO extension to the front of the car to connect to the Parrot module. First step was to get to the amp, which meant pulling out the boot floor and a few trim panels:
20200405_163016 by CarlosV8, on Flickr
That’s as far as I’ve got for now, but the good thing about currently working from home is that I don’t need the car, so I could chuck everything in the back, lock it up and walk away:
20200405_163412 by CarlosV8, on Flickr
Next time I’ll connect the Parrot kit up to test it, then start thinking about routing the cables to the front of the car. Should be fun!
20200321_170148 by CarlosV8, on Flickr
A wash! I even treated the tired looking grey trims. Doesn't come up too bad for 16 years old.
And then we come to the pile of parts I've been amassing over the past few months:
20200412_145239 by CarlosV8, on Flickr
On the suspension front there's Bilstein B4 dampers with new top mounts and rear ARB links - the aim is to get back to the factory ride and handling. And the other jobs are focused around the stereo, which include new front speakers and a Parrot bluetooth kit.
I started with the rear suspension. The bottom bolt put up a fight on both sides, but soon enough the old shock was out. New vs old:
20200412_152004 by CarlosV8, on Flickr
And fitted:
20200412_152731 by CarlosV8, on Flickr
As suspected, it looks like the ones that came off were the original “Volvo” items:
20200412_164115 by CarlosV8, on Flickr
Next, work on the stereo started. I've been getting some distortion through the front speakers so they needed to be replaced. I'm not an audiophile, so nothing fancy is going in, just some cheap Pioneer jobbies. The door card came off with only a couple of broken clips (I had spares ready anyway). The standard speaker sits in a housing riveted to the door - I read lots of people saying you had to drill these out and replace the whole housing, but I managed to get just the Volvo speaker out and then mounted the new speaker directly in the housing. With some quick wiring adaptors made up the replacement looks vaguely stock and there was no need to cut any of the original wiring:
20200329_142649 by CarlosV8, on Flickr
There was a little nick in the passenger side speaker cone, which I guess is where the distortion was coming from:
20200405_153607 by CarlosV8, on Flickr
Earlier in this thread I wrote about installing a Highway bluetooth/DAB unit, which connects to the stereo via an FM transmitter. On the whole I've been very happy with this cheap/quick solution, but it has it's limitations. It's perfect for my 30 minute commute, but on a longer journey you have to mess around with FM frequencies to maintain clear reception, which isn't ideal. In the back of mind I've always thought that a hardwired Parrot system would be a better choice, and when a kit came up cheap on Ebay I snapped it up with the intention of giving it a try.
Unfortunately it's not particularly simple job to fit the Parrot system, as the amp for my V50 sits in the boot. This means you need a connector lead to convert the amp wiring plugs to ISO, then run an ISO extension to the front of the car to connect to the Parrot module. First step was to get to the amp, which meant pulling out the boot floor and a few trim panels:
20200405_163016 by CarlosV8, on Flickr
That’s as far as I’ve got for now, but the good thing about currently working from home is that I don’t need the car, so I could chuck everything in the back, lock it up and walk away:
20200405_163412 by CarlosV8, on Flickr
Next time I’ll connect the Parrot kit up to test it, then start thinking about routing the cables to the front of the car. Should be fun!
After ignoring the Volvo for a month or so I've gradually been getting on with the Parrot project. Testing the bargainous Ebay Parrot proved sucsessful, so it was time to start pulling out more of the interior:
20200530_142431 by CarlosV8, on Flickr
Anybody walking past must have thought I was stripping the car for parts, as most of the driveway was covered in V50 interior, but eventually I got the wiring installed neatly, basically following the existing loom:
20200530_163308 by CarlosV8, on Flickr
So I now had the connections for the Parrot up to the passenger footwell, which gave me a chance to do another job - the pollen filter. It's buried away back here:
20200530_235155 by CarlosV8, on Flickr
And definitely needed changing:
20200530_145222 by CarlosV8, on Flickr
With that done I finished getting the wiring tucked away and got everything back together. The Parrot box-of-tricks is currently hidden away on the edge of the centre console. I'm not entirely happy with it there, but for now it's safe enough. I ran the auxiliary input wiring to the armrest cubbyhole, which keeps things neat:
20200607_132114 by CarlosV8, on Flickr
The screen and controls sit quite nicely on the floating centre console:
20200607_132700 by CarlosV8, on Flickr
I'm going to try internet radio through my phone once I start using the car again to see if the quality is acceptable. If not, I will connect the old Highway unit to the auxiliary input of the Parrot, which will allow me to keep using the DAB.
20200530_142431 by CarlosV8, on Flickr
Anybody walking past must have thought I was stripping the car for parts, as most of the driveway was covered in V50 interior, but eventually I got the wiring installed neatly, basically following the existing loom:
20200530_163308 by CarlosV8, on Flickr
So I now had the connections for the Parrot up to the passenger footwell, which gave me a chance to do another job - the pollen filter. It's buried away back here:
20200530_235155 by CarlosV8, on Flickr
And definitely needed changing:
20200530_145222 by CarlosV8, on Flickr
With that done I finished getting the wiring tucked away and got everything back together. The Parrot box-of-tricks is currently hidden away on the edge of the centre console. I'm not entirely happy with it there, but for now it's safe enough. I ran the auxiliary input wiring to the armrest cubbyhole, which keeps things neat:
20200607_132114 by CarlosV8, on Flickr
The screen and controls sit quite nicely on the floating centre console:
20200607_132700 by CarlosV8, on Flickr
I'm going to try internet radio through my phone once I start using the car again to see if the quality is acceptable. If not, I will connect the old Highway unit to the auxiliary input of the Parrot, which will allow me to keep using the DAB.
I've finally got the last of the parts fitted to the V50:
2020-06-29_12-31-59 by CarlosV8, on Flickr
New struts, springs, top mounts and bearings. I don't like messing about with the front springs so took it down to my friendly local garage who fitted it all. What a difference! After changing the wishbones I still some had some residuals bangs through the suspension, especially under hard acceleration on less-than-smooth roads. That's now all gone, and the car feels much tighter and less wallowy. Very happy with that.
Whilst the car was in the garage I also got the MOT done - it was due this month so got a COVID19 extension, but decided to get it done anyway. After all the new parts this year it flew straight through with no advisories (it got 5 of them last year).
Last jobs to do in the next month or so is an oil service and new front brakes, then the V50 will be ready for road trip to Scotland (if we're allowed!)
2020-06-29_12-31-59 by CarlosV8, on Flickr
New struts, springs, top mounts and bearings. I don't like messing about with the front springs so took it down to my friendly local garage who fitted it all. What a difference! After changing the wishbones I still some had some residuals bangs through the suspension, especially under hard acceleration on less-than-smooth roads. That's now all gone, and the car feels much tighter and less wallowy. Very happy with that.
Whilst the car was in the garage I also got the MOT done - it was due this month so got a COVID19 extension, but decided to get it done anyway. After all the new parts this year it flew straight through with no advisories (it got 5 of them last year).
Last jobs to do in the next month or so is an oil service and new front brakes, then the V50 will be ready for road trip to Scotland (if we're allowed!)
Looking great!
I did my pollen filter during plague furlough; what an absolute genius the person responsible for that layout is! About as much fun as hammering your fingers with a hammer.
Nothing else I've done on my V50 has proved very awkward so far. Not a bad car at all to work on. Had the rear o/s calliper off a couple of times due to partial seizing, and finally bought a reconditioned unit since I couldn't be arsed to do it myself having already done the pins. Focus parts, so cheap obvs!
Thinking about doing the turbo controller valve since there's much talk of them being tired by 100k. And they're cheap.
I did my pollen filter during plague furlough; what an absolute genius the person responsible for that layout is! About as much fun as hammering your fingers with a hammer.
Nothing else I've done on my V50 has proved very awkward so far. Not a bad car at all to work on. Had the rear o/s calliper off a couple of times due to partial seizing, and finally bought a reconditioned unit since I couldn't be arsed to do it myself having already done the pins. Focus parts, so cheap obvs!
Thinking about doing the turbo controller valve since there's much talk of them being tired by 100k. And they're cheap.
ChampionRabbit said:
Looking great!
I did my pollen filter during plague furlough; what an absolute genius the person responsible for that layout is! About as much fun as hammering your fingers with a hammer.
Nothing else I've done on my V50 has proved very awkward so far. Not a bad car at all to work on. Had the rear o/s calliper off a couple of times due to partial seizing, and finally bought a reconditioned unit since I couldn't be arsed to do it myself having already done the pins. Focus parts, so cheap obvs!
Thinking about doing the turbo controller valve since there's much talk of them being tired by 100k. And they're cheap.
Yeah the pollen filter was a PITA. The little door to the housing was missing 2 of the retaining nuts so I'm guessing someone had been in there at least once before and lost/dropped them. I was about to go looking for them though!I did my pollen filter during plague furlough; what an absolute genius the person responsible for that layout is! About as much fun as hammering your fingers with a hammer.
Nothing else I've done on my V50 has proved very awkward so far. Not a bad car at all to work on. Had the rear o/s calliper off a couple of times due to partial seizing, and finally bought a reconditioned unit since I couldn't be arsed to do it myself having already done the pins. Focus parts, so cheap obvs!
Thinking about doing the turbo controller valve since there's much talk of them being tired by 100k. And they're cheap.
Good tip on the turbo control valve, I hadn't heard about that one. Will look into replacing mine as I'm just about to hit 100k.
ChampionRabbit said:
Pierburg 7.28197.16.0 is the part I think. Weirdly you can get it pretty cheap on Amazon, although the one I ordered didn't show up for some reason.
Thanks for that. I'm going to replace the front brakes shortly, so I've also ordered the valve to do at the same time whilst the wheels are off. £33 off Ebay, so worth swapping just for peace of mind!Just did mine.
Would recommend going in through the side behind the O/S wheel rather than up from the underneath like some people seem to do; you don't even need to take the arch liner(s) out although if you have large hands like me you'll add to the scars on the back of your hands!
The metal/wire clip on the connector just pushes in to detach, although it's just as easy to pop it off and refit before attaching to the new TCV.
Would recommend going in through the side behind the O/S wheel rather than up from the underneath like some people seem to do; you don't even need to take the arch liner(s) out although if you have large hands like me you'll add to the scars on the back of your hands!
The metal/wire clip on the connector just pushes in to detach, although it's just as easy to pop it off and refit before attaching to the new TCV.
ChampionRabbit said:
Just did mine.
Would recommend going in through the side behind the O/S wheel rather than up from the underneath like some people seem to do; you don't even need to take the arch liner(s) out although if you have large hands like me you'll add to the scars on the back of your hands!
The metal/wire clip on the connector just pushes in to detach, although it's just as easy to pop it off and refit before attaching to the new TCV.
Cheers for that. Will give it a go in the next few weeks, when I fit this lot:Would recommend going in through the side behind the O/S wheel rather than up from the underneath like some people seem to do; you don't even need to take the arch liner(s) out although if you have large hands like me you'll add to the scars on the back of your hands!
The metal/wire clip on the connector just pushes in to detach, although it's just as easy to pop it off and refit before attaching to the new TCV.
2020-07-19_10-47-55 by CarlosV8, on Flickr
Hopefully the last of the oily jobs for a while!
The V50 hasn't been used much over the last few months due to lockdown - I've only filled it up with petrol once since March. However, when it has been used, it's been doing what Volvos do best:
2020-07-28_06-22-06 by CarlosV8, on Flickr
A Grandfather clock in a Volvo estate, doesn't get much better than that
Last few maintenance jobs have also been done, including oil and filter, which also involved depositing about a litre of old oil over the driveway. Oooops. Front brake discs and pads are also swapped over. Fairly big discs on the old girl, with a chunky single piston caliper:
2020-08-05_05-39-55 by CarlosV8, on Flickr
Only thing I ran out of time to do was the TCV mentioned by ChampionRabbit, but that can wait until next time.
A road trip from the south coast to Scotland is now looming later this month. All the mechanical jobs that needed doing are done, but the last thing I wanted to do is fit a dash cam. However, I didn't want it plugging into the power socket with messy looking wiring, so I'm hardwiring it using a clever little kit from Amazon:
2020-08-04_02-01-14 by CarlosV8, on Flickr
I've taken an ignition live spur from the fuse box using the flylead in the photo above, which fits to a USB power adapter and goes straight to the dash cam. No unsightly wires, so a nice neat solution I thought.
2020-07-28_06-22-06 by CarlosV8, on Flickr
A Grandfather clock in a Volvo estate, doesn't get much better than that
Last few maintenance jobs have also been done, including oil and filter, which also involved depositing about a litre of old oil over the driveway. Oooops. Front brake discs and pads are also swapped over. Fairly big discs on the old girl, with a chunky single piston caliper:
2020-08-05_05-39-55 by CarlosV8, on Flickr
Only thing I ran out of time to do was the TCV mentioned by ChampionRabbit, but that can wait until next time.
A road trip from the south coast to Scotland is now looming later this month. All the mechanical jobs that needed doing are done, but the last thing I wanted to do is fit a dash cam. However, I didn't want it plugging into the power socket with messy looking wiring, so I'm hardwiring it using a clever little kit from Amazon:
2020-08-04_02-01-14 by CarlosV8, on Flickr
I've taken an ignition live spur from the fuse box using the flylead in the photo above, which fits to a USB power adapter and goes straight to the dash cam. No unsightly wires, so a nice neat solution I thought.
Looking very good!
I was carrying filing cabinets in mine to similar effect; it isn't as good as my old V40 (2001 version) since the seats don't fold anywhere near as flat, but still pretty good.
I also attacked my brakes in the last few weeks in an attempt to get the front o/s calliper to stop squealing during hard(ish) braking. Everything removed and lubed with correct lubes, all the discs and pads were already newish, pins good, rubber all good, so nothing replaced, all pins good, did fluid a while ago so that's good...
Still squeals. Can't really think what else to do about it other than change the pads, but they're only 8 month old APEC that had been freshly changed when I bought the car, so I can't bring myself to swap them for the sake of squeal.
Annoying.
A/C condenser is TFFM, so have ordered a new one (pattern) that I intend to fit next weekend (and then get filled at KwikFit or similar). I can't find any guides for the T5, the Haynes book of smudges doesn't cover T5 and Vida is fairly useless on the subject to I'll probably make a YouTube video of my struggles so at least there's something out there!
I don't suppose you've done your condenser? I'm very keen to do it without draining the coolant. It looks like it'll either be fairly straight forward, or have me crying into a cup of tea by 10.30am!
I was carrying filing cabinets in mine to similar effect; it isn't as good as my old V40 (2001 version) since the seats don't fold anywhere near as flat, but still pretty good.
I also attacked my brakes in the last few weeks in an attempt to get the front o/s calliper to stop squealing during hard(ish) braking. Everything removed and lubed with correct lubes, all the discs and pads were already newish, pins good, rubber all good, so nothing replaced, all pins good, did fluid a while ago so that's good...
Still squeals. Can't really think what else to do about it other than change the pads, but they're only 8 month old APEC that had been freshly changed when I bought the car, so I can't bring myself to swap them for the sake of squeal.
Annoying.
A/C condenser is TFFM, so have ordered a new one (pattern) that I intend to fit next weekend (and then get filled at KwikFit or similar). I can't find any guides for the T5, the Haynes book of smudges doesn't cover T5 and Vida is fairly useless on the subject to I'll probably make a YouTube video of my struggles so at least there's something out there!
I don't suppose you've done your condenser? I'm very keen to do it without draining the coolant. It looks like it'll either be fairly straight forward, or have me crying into a cup of tea by 10.30am!
StoatInACoat said:
Just seen this! We have the 2.0D which is almost the opposite of yours with the bodykit and wheels but the coal burner under the bonnet! We have the pure DAB thing as well but I had no idea you could wire an aux in like that. Comfy cars and a world away from the Mazda6 dishwasher it replaced.
Like the look of your roof box setup - any links?StoatInACoat said:
Just seen this! We have the 2.0D which is almost the opposite of yours with the bodykit and wheels but the coal burner under the bonnet! We have the pure DAB thing as well but I had no idea you could wire an aux in like that. Comfy cars and a world away from the Mazda6 dishwasher it replaced.
In reality a 2.0D would have suited my needs much better, but I couldn't resist the T5! After using the Parrot for the limited journeys I've done recently I've decided there's no need for the Pure unit, so I removed it all last week. Both solutions work well but also have their compromises, however for me the hardwired Parrot is the best option.
ChampionRabbit said:
Looking very good!
I was carrying filing cabinets in mine to similar effect; it isn't as good as my old V40 (2001 version) since the seats don't fold anywhere near as flat, but still pretty good.
I also attacked my brakes in the last few weeks in an attempt to get the front o/s calliper to stop squealing during hard(ish) braking. Everything removed and lubed with correct lubes, all the discs and pads were already newish, pins good, rubber all good, so nothing replaced, all pins good, did fluid a while ago so that's good...
Still squeals. Can't really think what else to do about it other than change the pads, but they're only 8 month old APEC that had been freshly changed when I bought the car, so I can't bring myself to swap them for the sake of squeal.
Annoying.
A/C condenser is TFFM, so have ordered a new one (pattern) that I intend to fit next weekend (and then get filled at KwikFit or similar). I can't find any guides for the T5, the Haynes book of smudges doesn't cover T5 and Vida is fairly useless on the subject to I'll probably make a YouTube video of my struggles so at least there's something out there!
I don't suppose you've done your condenser? I'm very keen to do it without draining the coolant. It looks like it'll either be fairly straight forward, or have me crying into a cup of tea by 10.30am!
Thanks! As Helix says try chamfering off the edges of the pads. I've always done it and have found it can help cure squealing on mid-life brakes. Haven't done the condenser I'm afraid, but good luck I was carrying filing cabinets in mine to similar effect; it isn't as good as my old V40 (2001 version) since the seats don't fold anywhere near as flat, but still pretty good.
I also attacked my brakes in the last few weeks in an attempt to get the front o/s calliper to stop squealing during hard(ish) braking. Everything removed and lubed with correct lubes, all the discs and pads were already newish, pins good, rubber all good, so nothing replaced, all pins good, did fluid a while ago so that's good...
Still squeals. Can't really think what else to do about it other than change the pads, but they're only 8 month old APEC that had been freshly changed when I bought the car, so I can't bring myself to swap them for the sake of squeal.
Annoying.
A/C condenser is TFFM, so have ordered a new one (pattern) that I intend to fit next weekend (and then get filled at KwikFit or similar). I can't find any guides for the T5, the Haynes book of smudges doesn't cover T5 and Vida is fairly useless on the subject to I'll probably make a YouTube video of my struggles so at least there's something out there!
I don't suppose you've done your condenser? I'm very keen to do it without draining the coolant. It looks like it'll either be fairly straight forward, or have me crying into a cup of tea by 10.30am!
Nik Gnashers said:
Enjoyed reading this thread, thanks.
I'm not a Volvo fan at all, although I quite like an estate (touring), but this thread is great, and your writing style is enjoyable to read.
Thanks, very kind of you to say!I'm not a Volvo fan at all, although I quite like an estate (touring), but this thread is great, and your writing style is enjoyable to read.
redandwhite said:
Like the look of your roof box setup - any links?
I will have a look at the model when I get home but it's definitely a Thule. That box is probably about 20 years old though and was originally bought by my dad to go on the roof of a Jag XJ with a bike either side for family holidays to the south of France so it's quite long and thin. I think it's supposed to be used for skis! The roof bars themselves are generic £40 jobs from decathlon or somewhere that we bought for our old Mazda and fit any car with rails. They fit in the boot so stay in the car in case my wife suddenly decides she needs to buy a wardrobe on her way to work.
StoatInACoat said:
Just seen this! We have the 2.0D which is almost the opposite of yours with the bodykit and wheels but the coal burner under the bonnet! We have the pure DAB thing as well but I had no idea you could wire an aux in like that. Comfy cars and a world away from the Mazda6 dishwasher it replaced.
Another lurker on this thread, In 2012 bought a new V50 D2 R-Design - one of the very last cars made, I went to buy a s/h 3 yr old one, but was offered a very good deal on a new D2, think just over 20% off sticker price with some additional extras thrown in, and the finance payments actually worked out less than the s/h car!! I still have the car, its my daily driver, just passed 214K and with a recent service and MOT feels fresh - but would almost certainly benefit from a suspension refresh! In my time of ownership, (touching a lot of wood), I've had very few issues, a couple of steering gaiters, lower front arms, DPF filter and battery (most of those between 180K and 200K miles) - its still on original clutch and exhaust.Following this thread with interest.
DavidY said:
Another lurker on this thread, In 2012 bought a new V50 D2 R-Design - one of the very last cars made, I went to buy a s/h 3 yr old one, but was offered a very good deal on a new D2, think just over 20% off sticker price with some additional extras thrown in, and the finance payments actually worked out less than the s/h car!! I still have the car, its my daily driver, just passed 214K and with a recent service and MOT feels fresh - but would almost certainly benefit from a suspension refresh! In my time of ownership, (touching a lot of wood), I've had very few issues, a couple of steering gaiters, lower front arms, DPF filter and battery (most of those between 180K and 200K miles) - its still on original clutch and exhaust.
Following this thread with interest.
From reading other owners' experiences, it seems the suspension is a weak point in terms of longevity. Good to hear of another high mileage car though. Mine has just ticked over 100k, but I'm only putting about 6k per year on it, so it's not gonna to climb very high in my ownership.Following this thread with interest.
Having said that, I've just put 1700 miles on the V50 in the last 2 weeks with a road trip from the south coast up to Scotland and back. The car performed faultlessly - the new suspension has made a noticeable difference, with a massive improvement in body control whilst sacrificing very little, if anything, in comfort. And the engine is an absolute joy... of course I knew this already, but to be able to use around the fast flowing A roads in Scotland has been so much fun. The wide torque curve meant you could make more than adequate progress in 4th/5th, but when required you could drop of couple of gears and use all the revs - muchos smiles from me and a tinge of travel sickness from the wife
Took a few snaps whilst we were out and about:
A bridge, somewhere north of Oban:
20200821_164420 by CarlosV8, on Flickr
On the edge of Loch Eil:
20200821_161721 by CarlosV8, on Flickr
Glen Etive:
20200822_134933 by CarlosV8, on Flickr
Glen Etive again, but who did it better?
2020-08-30_10-28-15 by CarlosV8, on Flickr
The Falkirk Wheel:
2020-08-25_10-45-34 by CarlosV8, on Flickr
The road to one of the places we stayed was a little tight:
20200828_094721 by CarlosV8, on Flickr
And finally, some bridge near Edinburgh:
2020-08-30_09-55-22 by CarlosV8, on Flickr
Not the sort of car you'd normally see in these shots, but that's part of the fun!
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