30 years old, some mega-mileage Renault erm... Alpine?
Discussion
So up at RATS the engine, gearbox etc had been dropped, plus at the front the fuel tank had come out along with the associated gubbins including brake servo etc etc.
The rationale in this was to get to the front cross-member whilst the tank was out anyway for the water pipes. This is a main part of the front chassis and joins the two front suspension turrets together whilst also providing the primary mounting point for the steering rack.
It's only been the last few years that these have really been highlighted as a potential problem area and they are crucial from a safety perspective. RATS has really lead the way with this work and Lee has probably seen more than he'd ever need to see in a lifetime now, so it was in safe hands.
The cross-member is 'protected' by being shrouded in fibre-glass (at least the top section is) but this means in many cases that the steel sweats and rusts out from within. There's little outward sign of this and the tub is strong enough that the car doesn't otherwise show any sign of the damage underneath.
This isn't mine, and isn't the worst of them (by a long way) but they can end up like this - branflakes! :
Interestingly mine wasn't really bad at all, certainly still structurally sound but it was a good time to do it. Proves that you can't really assume from mileage - mine has more miles than the Millenium Falcon but seemed in better condition than a lot of others.
Dropped suspension gave a chance to clean and repair any other areas of the front turrets:
Anyone looking at one these should really budget for this if the work hasn't been done, purely from a safety standpoint.
The rationale in this was to get to the front cross-member whilst the tank was out anyway for the water pipes. This is a main part of the front chassis and joins the two front suspension turrets together whilst also providing the primary mounting point for the steering rack.
It's only been the last few years that these have really been highlighted as a potential problem area and they are crucial from a safety perspective. RATS has really lead the way with this work and Lee has probably seen more than he'd ever need to see in a lifetime now, so it was in safe hands.
The cross-member is 'protected' by being shrouded in fibre-glass (at least the top section is) but this means in many cases that the steel sweats and rusts out from within. There's little outward sign of this and the tub is strong enough that the car doesn't otherwise show any sign of the damage underneath.
This isn't mine, and isn't the worst of them (by a long way) but they can end up like this - branflakes! :
Interestingly mine wasn't really bad at all, certainly still structurally sound but it was a good time to do it. Proves that you can't really assume from mileage - mine has more miles than the Millenium Falcon but seemed in better condition than a lot of others.
Dropped suspension gave a chance to clean and repair any other areas of the front turrets:
Anyone looking at one these should really budget for this if the work hasn't been done, purely from a safety standpoint.
On with the story. So Lee @ RATS had worked his magic on the cross-member which now looked like this:
Tank and wotnot obviously sit on top of that and new stainless pipes front to rear were in place. Gearbox had gone off for a full rebuild along with the new synchro rings and was fitted along with the clutch using the uprated pressure plate from the more powerful A610.
At the same time new fuel pumps were installed front and rear (the GTA Turbo uses a lifter at the front to a swirl pot and larger pump at the rear). Quite a few other bits and bobs but you get the general idea, including the final iteration of a very bespoke T3 hybrid turbo.
So by now the car is pretty much how I wanted it to be. Played around with a few things and ultimately changed out the chargecooler, going back to the standard plenums and just the intercooler. Logic for this was now that the turbo was that bit bigger the charge temps would be low enough for it not to be needed and pumping losses across the core probably cancel out any real advantage there.
Proof of the pudding was putting it on the rolling road and this set-up worked very well.
All success is short lived when it comes to classics though.... (hmm weird that when I purchased the car it wasn't one) and shortly after I got it back I developed a leak from the main front hose. Bit of a pain but I worked out where it was coming from - GTA hoses tee off from brass unions in a few places and these tend to be a weak point and sure enough that was the issue.
I was toying with cutting and splicing in an alloy tee when someone in the club mentioned they had a spare hose from the early development of the Samco kit. So back on its belly again and hose fitting time.
All very well and good, but now I have a longing for a full kit - which are properly expensive! Luckily around this time Lee puts a subset of a kit up for sale via the club, so I grab that and add on some matching wire reinforced silicone hoses to make up a hybrid of my own design.
Voila, my stuff for the bendy bits + Samco for the main pipes, joiners and twiddly bits. All for about half the price.
Wire reinforced means it can hold a bend and not collapse when it's in place, providing the radius isn't too daft.
No idea how this ever came to be on the car! Plumbing! Anyway, more cutting to size...
And what we end up with is two nice flowing pipes that curve gently and join up the oil cooler to the cooling system in an almost professional manner!
These were a pig - the two stubbies in the V of the engine that go to the water pump. I ended up stabbing the old one with my screwdriver to leverage it out. Fitting the new ones involved a lot of silicone spray and blood.
I'll skip over the pictures in between, but with the exception of one or two hoses at the front to the heater matrix I've gone totally blue silicone so another thing off the list and it was now just fancy stuff to tidy up. So I had some gold HT caliper paint left over and the cam covers were looking scruffy so as a bit of a steampunk experiment I went all Aventador. I'm sure Lamborghini charge a fortune for gold cam covers, but then they don't use a paint brush in situ.
However I think it looks ok...
So that just about brings it all up to date. Winter is nearly upon us so I might let it hide in the garage from the worst of the weather, but I think I can make 194K miles by Xmas.
I might message Renault and ask what prize I win when I get to 200K...
Tank and wotnot obviously sit on top of that and new stainless pipes front to rear were in place. Gearbox had gone off for a full rebuild along with the new synchro rings and was fitted along with the clutch using the uprated pressure plate from the more powerful A610.
At the same time new fuel pumps were installed front and rear (the GTA Turbo uses a lifter at the front to a swirl pot and larger pump at the rear). Quite a few other bits and bobs but you get the general idea, including the final iteration of a very bespoke T3 hybrid turbo.
So by now the car is pretty much how I wanted it to be. Played around with a few things and ultimately changed out the chargecooler, going back to the standard plenums and just the intercooler. Logic for this was now that the turbo was that bit bigger the charge temps would be low enough for it not to be needed and pumping losses across the core probably cancel out any real advantage there.
Proof of the pudding was putting it on the rolling road and this set-up worked very well.
All success is short lived when it comes to classics though.... (hmm weird that when I purchased the car it wasn't one) and shortly after I got it back I developed a leak from the main front hose. Bit of a pain but I worked out where it was coming from - GTA hoses tee off from brass unions in a few places and these tend to be a weak point and sure enough that was the issue.
I was toying with cutting and splicing in an alloy tee when someone in the club mentioned they had a spare hose from the early development of the Samco kit. So back on its belly again and hose fitting time.
All very well and good, but now I have a longing for a full kit - which are properly expensive! Luckily around this time Lee puts a subset of a kit up for sale via the club, so I grab that and add on some matching wire reinforced silicone hoses to make up a hybrid of my own design.
Voila, my stuff for the bendy bits + Samco for the main pipes, joiners and twiddly bits. All for about half the price.
Wire reinforced means it can hold a bend and not collapse when it's in place, providing the radius isn't too daft.
No idea how this ever came to be on the car! Plumbing! Anyway, more cutting to size...
And what we end up with is two nice flowing pipes that curve gently and join up the oil cooler to the cooling system in an almost professional manner!
These were a pig - the two stubbies in the V of the engine that go to the water pump. I ended up stabbing the old one with my screwdriver to leverage it out. Fitting the new ones involved a lot of silicone spray and blood.
I'll skip over the pictures in between, but with the exception of one or two hoses at the front to the heater matrix I've gone totally blue silicone so another thing off the list and it was now just fancy stuff to tidy up. So I had some gold HT caliper paint left over and the cam covers were looking scruffy so as a bit of a steampunk experiment I went all Aventador. I'm sure Lamborghini charge a fortune for gold cam covers, but then they don't use a paint brush in situ.
However I think it looks ok...
So that just about brings it all up to date. Winter is nearly upon us so I might let it hide in the garage from the worst of the weather, but I think I can make 194K miles by Xmas.
I might message Renault and ask what prize I win when I get to 200K...
rufusgti said:
Great thread. Great car.
These have been on my favourite radar since i was a young lad and a neighbour of my auntie in Bath had one parked out on the street. Back then it wasnt really like anything else on the road. A very special design to me.
I guess being in the owners group you will have seen the abandoned one in West wales. Its been there 20 years and last time i saw it sat in the square of a tiny welsh village it was looking almost surreal. I have posted pics of it before but not sure where.
I am currently running an old 944 with over 200k on. Its amazing how cars can last if they are looked after consistently and from an early age. The car is a credit to you.
Thanks. What model 944 do you have? Very much a contemporary of the GTA really and it's interesting to look at the period reviews comparing the two. These have been on my favourite radar since i was a young lad and a neighbour of my auntie in Bath had one parked out on the street. Back then it wasnt really like anything else on the road. A very special design to me.
I guess being in the owners group you will have seen the abandoned one in West wales. Its been there 20 years and last time i saw it sat in the square of a tiny welsh village it was looking almost surreal. I have posted pics of it before but not sure where.
I am currently running an old 944 with over 200k on. Its amazing how cars can last if they are looked after consistently and from an early age. The car is a credit to you.
Yes that Welsh car has been mentioned a few times on the club forum. I think there were a few other cars parked up with it for a while - original RS2000 and maybe a Quattro or similar from memory. I'd have to see if I can find the old pics.
Bit tragic as the cars look as bad as the hotel. I think the guy who owned them was approached but he wouldn't let them go and ultimately they will just reach the point where repair is well beyond anything economic.
Having said that there was a Le Mans barn find recently that is being fully restored and bidding went crazy for it on eBay even in the very poor state it was in. But where else are you going to find a genuine RHD one out of 26 ever made?
Few pics from the Noel Blue event up in Orpington the weekend before last. Essentially a bit of promo for the new A110 but us old timers were made very welcome and fed many, many pastries and mince pies.
The new car really is a gem and seems to be selling quite nicely - 6 month waiting list currently.
Warming up prior to the drive up to Orpington through the cloudbursts:
A610 with Gottis
A310, GTA Le Mans and new A110 in blue.
New 110...
It has got some very nice detailing
The new car really is a gem and seems to be selling quite nicely - 6 month waiting list currently.
Warming up prior to the drive up to Orpington through the cloudbursts:
A610 with Gottis
A310, GTA Le Mans and new A110 in blue.
New 110...
It has got some very nice detailing
Latest mod. Decided to replace the old Clarion double din stereo and CD-changer with modern Sony double din. Lot less kit and I was surprised by how much lighter it was.
This has built in tom-tom sat nav interface, plus bluetooth etc and USB playback so mp3 all the way from a micro-USB slot on the front.
I wasn't sure if it would work with the 80s dash but I think it integrates well.
Sadly I lose my old 90s tapes...
Old unit
New unit
This has built in tom-tom sat nav interface, plus bluetooth etc and USB playback so mp3 all the way from a micro-USB slot on the front.
I wasn't sure if it would work with the 80s dash but I think it integrates well.
Sadly I lose my old 90s tapes...
Old unit
New unit
Edited by alpgta on Sunday 10th March 16:27
Thanks all. Glad to see people are interested. In today's news, I've changed the exhaust tips. No more quad, I've gone carbon.
Cutting the old tips off with a hacksaw seems a bit drastic (esp when it's a full stainless exhuast) but I'm pleased with how it looks.
|https://thumbsnap.com/ZaSEt6jc[/url]
Cutting the old tips off with a hacksaw seems a bit drastic (esp when it's a full stainless exhuast) but I'm pleased with how it looks.
|https://thumbsnap.com/ZaSEt6jc[/url]
So few more bits and bobs.
Went up to Bicester for the scramble back in April with the owners club.
So much rare stuff there, but my favourites included the only 911 speedster I've ever seen, plus a couple of 512BBs, RSRs and the only 288 GTO I think I've ever seen in the wild.
What else? Well GTA wise, I tweaked the door slightly as it wasn't sealing quite 100% at motorway speeds ever since I had it resprayed about 15 years ago. I'd got round this with at extra rubber seal on the door but I knew the reason was that the shim on the lower hinge had been removed when it was sprayed. I had bought the official shims for not just doors but also the suspension as well. Suspension is double wishbone all round and adjusted by shims. Anyway, I know exactly where those shims are, but could I find the door shims... nope. Nil desperandum when you have one of her majesty's shiny pennies! Ideal door shim and if I need to tweak further I can always upgrade to a 2p.
Look the door still opens and I barely had to use my hammer.
I also took the chance to respray the trim in satin black. Arguably, you can rub it down with wet and dry and try to polish it back to original, but this is far easier and allowed me to repair a few cracked bits.
Before:
After:
Crack repair:
Rear grill also repaired, but I sprayed that in situ as they're very fragile at this age (i.e. likely to break if you remove them), no longer available and worth a fortune otherwise. I made a small repair to the corner with some epoxy putty and it all came out pretty well.
All done. Here's one for the Alpine geeks as the yellow badge is only on cars supplied by Renault Performance Centres - Radbourne Racing in my cars case.
What's perhaps more interesting is when you remove the rear air vents you can see the rear roll hoop. They run up through the car and across the roof - a similar arrangement is at the front and but is formed by the windscreen pillar itself as obviously a fibre-glass roof wouldn't give sufficient protection.
If you look at the chassis of something like an F40, it's interesting the sorts of similarities that there are with something like this or a Venturi. Late 80s low production volume sports cars with composite (semi-stressed) bodywork and steel chassis I guess dictate that they used a similar style of engineering.
Onwards and upwards though. It's insurance renewal and re-valuation time, just shy of 195K miles now!
Went up to Bicester for the scramble back in April with the owners club.
So much rare stuff there, but my favourites included the only 911 speedster I've ever seen, plus a couple of 512BBs, RSRs and the only 288 GTO I think I've ever seen in the wild.
What else? Well GTA wise, I tweaked the door slightly as it wasn't sealing quite 100% at motorway speeds ever since I had it resprayed about 15 years ago. I'd got round this with at extra rubber seal on the door but I knew the reason was that the shim on the lower hinge had been removed when it was sprayed. I had bought the official shims for not just doors but also the suspension as well. Suspension is double wishbone all round and adjusted by shims. Anyway, I know exactly where those shims are, but could I find the door shims... nope. Nil desperandum when you have one of her majesty's shiny pennies! Ideal door shim and if I need to tweak further I can always upgrade to a 2p.
Look the door still opens and I barely had to use my hammer.
I also took the chance to respray the trim in satin black. Arguably, you can rub it down with wet and dry and try to polish it back to original, but this is far easier and allowed me to repair a few cracked bits.
Before:
After:
Crack repair:
Rear grill also repaired, but I sprayed that in situ as they're very fragile at this age (i.e. likely to break if you remove them), no longer available and worth a fortune otherwise. I made a small repair to the corner with some epoxy putty and it all came out pretty well.
All done. Here's one for the Alpine geeks as the yellow badge is only on cars supplied by Renault Performance Centres - Radbourne Racing in my cars case.
What's perhaps more interesting is when you remove the rear air vents you can see the rear roll hoop. They run up through the car and across the roof - a similar arrangement is at the front and but is formed by the windscreen pillar itself as obviously a fibre-glass roof wouldn't give sufficient protection.
If you look at the chassis of something like an F40, it's interesting the sorts of similarities that there are with something like this or a Venturi. Late 80s low production volume sports cars with composite (semi-stressed) bodywork and steel chassis I guess dictate that they used a similar style of engineering.
Onwards and upwards though. It's insurance renewal and re-valuation time, just shy of 195K miles now!
Edited by alpgta on Saturday 15th June 17:22
SturdyHSV said:
Always loved all of the Alpines, a yellow A610 was my favourite for some time but now I'd love to own any of them really, all such fantastic looking machines and wonderfully different.
I agree, the fact they're different tends to make them feel special. Rear engined layout tends to give it that 911 thing where you need to put the effort into them to really master it, albeit double wishbones all round make the Alpines more forgiving than the older 911s. A110, A310, GTA and A610 all of them had bespoke chassis, they weren't simply a re-working of a saloon car. Front suspension wishbones are borrowed from the R25, but rears are developments of the mid engined R5 Turbo. From the underside it looks like a Tamiya model car - flat floor (except for the gearbox air-scoop) with big wishbones all round.
Pretty chuckable if you know what you're doing - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CV00r_hmJgs
Then you have the floor hinged pedals which are so closely stacked they're like a racing car. (Don't try driving one with big shoes on).
Even the wipers are crazy, a bit like a mental group C car - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnoalGOZxNA (But then this guy appears to like a soundtrack taken from Lethal Weapon 2)
Edited by alpgta on Monday 23 September 20:33
Well what an odd year it's turned out to be. Not much mileage added this year - crept up to over 196K but really not much action...
Went to a meeting before Xmas with new and potential A110 owners and got to have a drive in the new A110S which even on a small run does feel very special.
Other than that, runs over to my Mum's during Covid to deliver essential medication and food supplies. Here's a frunk of food and super unleaded and a stop off on the Ashdown Forest - deserted due to Covid.
A few meet ups in the brief lull between lockdowns at the Forest Row cafe.
Went to a meeting before Xmas with new and potential A110 owners and got to have a drive in the new A110S which even on a small run does feel very special.
Other than that, runs over to my Mum's during Covid to deliver essential medication and food supplies. Here's a frunk of food and super unleaded and a stop off on the Ashdown Forest - deserted due to Covid.
A few meet ups in the brief lull between lockdowns at the Forest Row cafe.
therealsamdailly said:
What a great ownership story, and a great looking car
I think I'd have to space the rear wheels out a little bit
Thanks! I think I'd have to space the rear wheels out a little bit
Yes funny you should say that, as it's been on my to do list for ages. I need to get spacers and a stud extractor though as it's an odd arrangement on these. There's a single stud / nut and then 3 bolts per wheel, so a spacer would have to account for that and it's just a bit more complex than normal. It's a funny arrangement but makes it easy to put the wheels on as they sort of hang there whilst you put the bolts in.
I've actually had more than one tyre shop remark on it in a "isn't that clever" way. Typically French though, little bonkers details all over the place.
Three wheels on my wagon....
Another year, but again a delayed MOT as covid restrictions just meant lack of use and wotnot. All passed fine, two advisories - paint on the front brake lines, yep that'd be me. Epoxymastic121 is amazing but you tend to catch things you don't mean to as it just sticks to everything. I just throw the brush away afterwards as it's not salvageable. Odd as well as I don't think they'd flagged this last time. And a nail in the rear tyre that turned out to be nothing more than a piece of snapped off thread from a small bolt. Tyre place pulled it out and it hadn't even gone in far enough to pierce the structure of the tyre - I gave them a tenner for the biscuit tin as they didn't even want to charge me. Bargain. Other than that I just had the confused "what is it?" conversation with the guy there who had clearly never seen one before and not sure either when I mentioned Alpine are now back with the new car, F1 and Le Mans victories as well.
Hopefully they'll be something to do when the spring comes back.
Another year, but again a delayed MOT as covid restrictions just meant lack of use and wotnot. All passed fine, two advisories - paint on the front brake lines, yep that'd be me. Epoxymastic121 is amazing but you tend to catch things you don't mean to as it just sticks to everything. I just throw the brush away afterwards as it's not salvageable. Odd as well as I don't think they'd flagged this last time. And a nail in the rear tyre that turned out to be nothing more than a piece of snapped off thread from a small bolt. Tyre place pulled it out and it hadn't even gone in far enough to pierce the structure of the tyre - I gave them a tenner for the biscuit tin as they didn't even want to charge me. Bargain. Other than that I just had the confused "what is it?" conversation with the guy there who had clearly never seen one before and not sure either when I mentioned Alpine are now back with the new car, F1 and Le Mans victories as well.
Hopefully they'll be something to do when the spring comes back.
Edited by alpgta on Friday 3rd December 18:04
Gary C said:
therealsamdailly said:
Haha never heard of a part stud, part bolt arrangement before. Does make a certain amount of sense I suppose.
I suppose if you mess about with longer studs, bolts etc you'll have to be careful not to throw the hub out of balance
Sort of reminds me of one car I had with a 6" long guide that you screwed into one of the bolt holes to line up the wheel as you put it on.I suppose if you mess about with longer studs, bolts etc you'll have to be careful not to throw the hub out of balance
Can't for the life of me remember which car. Might have been an Opel Manta
Zedboy said:
Only found this thread today OP. Cracking read... brought back very early backseat motoring memories from my dad’s 12TS and 16TX... love the brand. So good you’re looking after Renault heritage so well, and using it too!
Thanks! There's a lot more publicity around the Alpine brand now obviously and I think that helps in general. The new Alpine dealer network have been keen to involve the old cars which is great, as I think most mainstream Renault dealers had tended to look on them as a bit of an anomaly and a hassle. There's a lot now being restored too which is good news as it avoids cars being broken for parts.The GTA was technically homologated for GroupB too. That reminds me, I need to fix the suspension on the Tamiya Celica GroupB.
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