1999 Citroen Saxo VTR? The long and winding road....
Discussion
Kitchski said:
It first received some love in November. Originally, the VTR was available with four different seat fabrics (as opposed to the VTS' two). The first was a grey velour, with little blue flecks and plain doorcards (as fitted to the very first VTRs). Then came the grey fabric with what looked like green paint splashes all over the place, including the doorcards (the VTS also used this). Both interiors were plush, by Saxo standards.
When the mk2 Saxo was launched, Citroen took the VTR and VTS in slightly different directions. Up until this point, they'd been pretty similar; The VTS received a slightly thicker anti-roll bar on the rear, some rear headrests, an oil gauge, ABS and an optional passenger airbag. Everything else was the same.
With the mk2, it was decided to take the VTS further upmarket. Side airbags were fitted, and the seats were now covered in another typically manic 1990's French patterned velour, lifted this time from the Xsara VTS. The VTR's interior, meanwhile, received what was actually the cheapest, most bargain-basement fabric used in the poverty-spec Xsara and Xantia models. Some plastic trim was removed inside (notably the inner C-pillar trims), and - bafflingly - the ECU cover! The rear quarter cards lost their upholstery altogether, and the VTS was also now wearing the 15in 5-spoke wheels, while the VTR carried on with the 14's (which I personally love!)
(the very last VTRs had a black fabric with random triangles & spots on it, IIRC)
This mean that our VTR? was making doing with this interior, the 3rd version offered:
(
Loving the thread, but as someone who spent far too much money on them when they were new, a few corrections...When the mk2 Saxo was launched, Citroen took the VTR and VTS in slightly different directions. Up until this point, they'd been pretty similar; The VTS received a slightly thicker anti-roll bar on the rear, some rear headrests, an oil gauge, ABS and an optional passenger airbag. Everything else was the same.
With the mk2, it was decided to take the VTS further upmarket. Side airbags were fitted, and the seats were now covered in another typically manic 1990's French patterned velour, lifted this time from the Xsara VTS. The VTR's interior, meanwhile, received what was actually the cheapest, most bargain-basement fabric used in the poverty-spec Xsara and Xantia models. Some plastic trim was removed inside (notably the inner C-pillar trims), and - bafflingly - the ECU cover! The rear quarter cards lost their upholstery altogether, and the VTS was also now wearing the 15in 5-spoke wheels, while the VTR carried on with the 14's (which I personally love!)
(the very last VTRs had a black fabric with random triangles & spots on it, IIRC)
This mean that our VTR? was making doing with this interior, the 3rd version offered:
(
VTS got 15” wheels as standard on while still on phase 2 of the Mk1 body shape in 99, prior to the mk2 being launched. The rear seats were always different on mk1 r and S models, with the S having split fold and rear headrests as standard. R models not unless (rarely) optioned
As you say, the early Mk2 VTR’s were the most sparse, with c pillar trims missing and also a 120mphrather than 140mph speedo, but these were put back in for the mid 2001 revision when it changed seat trims to the below.
Side airbags were not standard on the VTS at the mk2 introduction in very late 99, but came much later, 2001 IIRC. At this time the VTR also gained them as a very option, coinciding with the run out, grey squares and coloured triangles trim which ran to the end of production. The VTS rear headrest design also changed in terms of design and material around this point.
Also, there are two designs of 14” VTR wheel which although look almost identical, have different part numbers and require different wheel bolts.
f1nn said:
Loving the thread, but as someone who spent far too much money on them when they were new, a few corrections...
Yeah, I recognise your name from SSC days, I think? I was 'Icey_Furio' on there. You had a silver VTS, I think? With body-coloured mouldings?Anyway, always good to learn some stuff!
f1nn said:
VTS got 15” wheels as standard on while still on phase 2 of the Mk1 body shape in 99, prior to the mk2 being launched. The rear seats were always different on mk1 r and S models, with the S having split fold and rear headrests as standard. R models not unless (rarely) optioned
I was actually aware of the late mk1's getting the 15's, but didn't want to start overloading on detail 
And yes, I remember seeing the VTS' with separate headrests, and the VTR with the 'humps' either side of the rear bench. I did go out with a girl who had a very early mk1 VTR though, and that had separate rest headrests. Like you say, probably specced at the dealer.f1nn said:
As you say, the early Mk2 VTR’s were the most sparse, with c pillar trims missing and also a 120mphrather than 140mph speedo, but these were put back in for the mid 2001 revision when it changed seat trims to the below.
This is an interesting one, as my wife had only the other day said she swore some of the VTRs had 120mph speedos, but I wasn't sure. I know the early ones had 130mph speedos, but couldn't suss where the 120mph ones came in. Your comments about the early mk2 VTR initially prompted me to prepare a retaliatory reaction, until I remembered this car had a new dial cluster in around 2002, hence it has a 140mph speedo! It's bugging me that it shouldn't, but it's probably just as well it does, seeing as it has the ability to do 130mph now 
f1nn said:
Side airbags were not standard on the VTS at the mk2 introduction in very late 99, but came much later, 2001 IIRC. At this time the VTR also gained them as a very option, coinciding with the run out, grey squares and coloured triangles trim which ran to the end of production. The VTS rear headrest design also changed in terms of design and material around this point.
Ah, yes so not all cars had them? I remember the later headrests (they overlapped the top of the seat back, for a slightly more modern look?)f1nn said:
Also, there are two designs of 14” VTR wheel which although look almost identical, have different part numbers and require different wheel bolts.
I had no idea of that! I'm guessing they were later cars, using the shorter bolts used on the C2 et al?PorkRind said:
Ive not really followed citroens little cars with much interest, do they still make a nippy hatch or was this the last in the line!?
After the Saxo, they only made a couple of hot(ish) hatches:C2 VTR - 10bhp less than Saxo, more weight, and a crap gearbox.
C2 GT - As above but with some weight removed, and a manual box.
C2 VTS - As above, but with 125bhp (bigger valve head), 17in wheels. None of the C2s are as agile as the Saxo was. They're taller and heavier.
C4 VTS 180 - I've got one. It's not hot! Funky and interesting, but not hot. Saxo VTS would eat it.
DS3 Racing - Don't know much about them. 200bhp, but again, heavy. Haven't heard anyone say great things about them.
Crying out for a C1 GT IMO.
Kitchski said:
It was a cool moment in a way, because a load of friends heard about my plight, and all came down in a convoy (including, in a rare un-nobheaded action, Simon (S10) I think?) Everyone perched up on the kerb behind me, causing hell and traffic and all sorts. There sat a Saxo, ground on the kerb, hazards on and loads of yoofs stood around it taking turns to take the piss out of the owner. It was a weirdly sad, yet happy time.
Dick. I have a vague recollection of that Kitchski said:
therusterman said:
Always enjoy reading your threads Kitchski, this one more than most. There's a few lads over on detailing world who are showing much love for the saxo - may be worth a look
Ah yes, I saw a guy on Facebook linking to that the other day. He's got a few VTS', and some are ex-press cars apparently? One is the car Citroen UK used in the brochure, and he spent ages looking for the exact spot this particular image of it was taken, to recreate it.I was friends with him on FB, but I think I had a cull of people I didn't really 'know' and he went in that.
http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.p...
S100HP said:
Yeah that's it. I didn't delete him as it turns out, he left FB. He's back now, and had a read of this. He's doing some good work on his VTS' Edited by Kitchski on Monday 19th November 11:05
Well, I promised a rotten Saxo, and I'm a man of my word!
I never knew Saxos would be awful for rust. Most Citroens after the Visa have been pretty good, and indeed, the AX that I know and love only started to cause problems later in its life.
But the Saxo? Oh the Saxo! It likes to corrode!
Where does it like to corrode? It would be easier to ask where it doesn't like to corrode! That would be the bodywork. Oh, and the glass.
Underneath is a different story. The worst part for rust on a Paxo, has to be the inner rear arches. This is where the VTR? failed the MoT. Initially I got underneath the car on the ramp to assess the situation:
....which didn't look great!
Now, the failure point in the rear arch (nearside only) was small. My MoT man said would be a small patch, and he'd circled it with yellow crayon to highlight it.
Because it was such a small repair, I never even bothered taking a picture of it before I started routing around. What I did instead, was remove the rear bumper, poke a bit (only a little bit), and let out a significant expulsion of carbon dioxde (possibly with the faint scent of bacon Frazzles, as it was after lunch):
You can just see the yellow crayon mark. The hole he'd failed it on originally, as about the size of a 10p coin.
What it turned into, was bigger:
Much bigger:
I'd literally just offer the faintest lift to a random patch of original underseal with a plastic scraper, and it'd simply peel away, complete with the corroded remnants of a section of French steel. Those are the seatbelt mounts at the top of the arch!
The offside, which hadn't been mentioned in the MoT at all, fared a bit better:
You can see by the state of the rear discs that the car had already been sat around once the ticket had run out, and even at this stage my wife wasn't totally sure what to do with the car. She had no real need for it, as her days involved moved our (now three) young boys around, and as such she had a people carrier. She was in this catch 22 situation, where she should have sold it before, because she was now too attached to it. I'd been running it as a daily for the past year or so, but I now had a slightly larger car which I'd use to ferry the kids around too (and I had that old BX estate!)
Basically, she knew it was a big repair. The car had other problems by this point too, chief of which was that it kept filling up with water!
She began to get quite down about it. It was a weight around her neck, really. We met because of this car (among others), and here it was with no purpose in life. It wasn't used, it wasn't safe, and it wasn't worth anything financially either (no Saxo was, and I suspect only the early VTS' will ever climb to a noticeable value, let alone a non-original poverty-spec mk2 VTR).
The only reason you'd even consider repairing this car, and sinking hours and hours of work into it, would be sentiment.
So, one day while she sat at home getting on with whatever she got on with, trying not to think about the rusted Saxo, I set about putting it right behind her back. Back axle off, and two wheels placed in the boot to stop the car tipping off the front of the ramp (turns out the back of a Saxo isn't very heavy!):
I do my best with 'invisible' repairs, but I only had limited time to do this, inbetween customer cars. We normally use this ramp for the removal and fitting of TVR bodyshells to chassis', and the Saxo only had a limited window of operation!
Sadly, I just didn't have the time to try and replicate the 'ribs' in the side walls of the boot. Annoys me now, but I was really up against it. I was also arriving home late from work most nights, and not being able to tell my wife why (I was planning it as an Xmas surprise)
The sections are all arranged as per an original car, though. The only difference is that I've used thicker-gauge steel in the load-bearing areas, but you can't see those externally.
Then it was on to the offside:
Once all that was done, I set about painting it all. Again, a lack of time left me with a less-than perfect finished product (would have preferred epoxy mastic with OE silver over the top), but it had to do as time was pressing:
Another advantage to the removal of the rear axle was that we got to raise the car back up. Basically, a guy on the industrial estate I'm on wanted a lowered beam for a slightly newer VTR. I wanted an original one. Straight swap it is then!
At this point, I reffited the VTS springs from the mk1 (probably the same anyway) and the original VTR front brakes.
The car had been wearing a Magnex single-box system that I'd picked up for peanuts in the previous years at some point, but the size of it always bugged me. It went back on the car, but I knew I'd be pulling it off again soon.
At last, the Saxo was back on the deck
That meant it was finally time to enjoy the new seats!
With the seats in place, it was off to the MoT station. Again.
By this time, it was 2014! But, no matter - the Saxo had an MoT!
I never knew Saxos would be awful for rust. Most Citroens after the Visa have been pretty good, and indeed, the AX that I know and love only started to cause problems later in its life.
But the Saxo? Oh the Saxo! It likes to corrode!
Where does it like to corrode? It would be easier to ask where it doesn't like to corrode! That would be the bodywork. Oh, and the glass.
Underneath is a different story. The worst part for rust on a Paxo, has to be the inner rear arches. This is where the VTR? failed the MoT. Initially I got underneath the car on the ramp to assess the situation:
....which didn't look great!
Now, the failure point in the rear arch (nearside only) was small. My MoT man said would be a small patch, and he'd circled it with yellow crayon to highlight it.
Because it was such a small repair, I never even bothered taking a picture of it before I started routing around. What I did instead, was remove the rear bumper, poke a bit (only a little bit), and let out a significant expulsion of carbon dioxde (possibly with the faint scent of bacon Frazzles, as it was after lunch):
You can just see the yellow crayon mark. The hole he'd failed it on originally, as about the size of a 10p coin.
What it turned into, was bigger:
Much bigger:
I'd literally just offer the faintest lift to a random patch of original underseal with a plastic scraper, and it'd simply peel away, complete with the corroded remnants of a section of French steel. Those are the seatbelt mounts at the top of the arch!
The offside, which hadn't been mentioned in the MoT at all, fared a bit better:
You can see by the state of the rear discs that the car had already been sat around once the ticket had run out, and even at this stage my wife wasn't totally sure what to do with the car. She had no real need for it, as her days involved moved our (now three) young boys around, and as such she had a people carrier. She was in this catch 22 situation, where she should have sold it before, because she was now too attached to it. I'd been running it as a daily for the past year or so, but I now had a slightly larger car which I'd use to ferry the kids around too (and I had that old BX estate!)
Basically, she knew it was a big repair. The car had other problems by this point too, chief of which was that it kept filling up with water!
She began to get quite down about it. It was a weight around her neck, really. We met because of this car (among others), and here it was with no purpose in life. It wasn't used, it wasn't safe, and it wasn't worth anything financially either (no Saxo was, and I suspect only the early VTS' will ever climb to a noticeable value, let alone a non-original poverty-spec mk2 VTR).
The only reason you'd even consider repairing this car, and sinking hours and hours of work into it, would be sentiment.
So, one day while she sat at home getting on with whatever she got on with, trying not to think about the rusted Saxo, I set about putting it right behind her back. Back axle off, and two wheels placed in the boot to stop the car tipping off the front of the ramp (turns out the back of a Saxo isn't very heavy!):
I do my best with 'invisible' repairs, but I only had limited time to do this, inbetween customer cars. We normally use this ramp for the removal and fitting of TVR bodyshells to chassis', and the Saxo only had a limited window of operation!
Sadly, I just didn't have the time to try and replicate the 'ribs' in the side walls of the boot. Annoys me now, but I was really up against it. I was also arriving home late from work most nights, and not being able to tell my wife why (I was planning it as an Xmas surprise)
The sections are all arranged as per an original car, though. The only difference is that I've used thicker-gauge steel in the load-bearing areas, but you can't see those externally.
Then it was on to the offside:
Once all that was done, I set about painting it all. Again, a lack of time left me with a less-than perfect finished product (would have preferred epoxy mastic with OE silver over the top), but it had to do as time was pressing:
Another advantage to the removal of the rear axle was that we got to raise the car back up. Basically, a guy on the industrial estate I'm on wanted a lowered beam for a slightly newer VTR. I wanted an original one. Straight swap it is then!
At this point, I reffited the VTS springs from the mk1 (probably the same anyway) and the original VTR front brakes.
The car had been wearing a Magnex single-box system that I'd picked up for peanuts in the previous years at some point, but the size of it always bugged me. It went back on the car, but I knew I'd be pulling it off again soon.
At last, the Saxo was back on the deck
That meant it was finally time to enjoy the new seats!
With the seats in place, it was off to the MoT station. Again.
By this time, it was 2014! But, no matter - the Saxo had an MoT!
Had originally penned some of this out, but just had a powercut in Portsmouth (big one, blew up a transformer apparently!) That resulted in a dip in power for us in Fareham, which rebooted my PC and damn near killed it! I've managed to recover it...just. You lucky, lucky people!
So let's see if I can wrap this up and bring us up to date!
Next up post-rust repairs, was to renew the lower engine mount bush/stabiliser. This had needed doing for some time, and being a Powerflex convert, I opted for one of their engine mounts. I use Powerflex in many cars, and I love the improved feel and response, but with an absence of harshness or vibration.
Bush fitted at around 5:45pm one day (original on the left, PF on the right):
PF bush removed and original reffited at around 6:30pm, after I'd tried starting the engine.
PF bush sold on eBay. Fillings replaced the following week.
One of the areas I wasn't happy with, if you cast your eyes back up a bit, was the John-boy exhaust. The tailpipe was just too damn big. The exhaust note was deep and boomy too. It had to go, but with an absence of decent OE style exhausts on the market now (most cheap aftermarket stuff is awful, and doesn't fit properly), keeping the Magnex was still beneficial in many ways. It wasn't too loud with the cat in (popped and banging without it though!)
I set about trying to improve the look:
Granted, it doesn't look much better now. But wait...
As tempting as it was to keep the pea-shooter, my sister had recent had a new backbox fitted to her 206 GTi, and her original was going in the skip. Not before I harvested the tailpipe, however:
The 206 tailpipe is almost identical to the types used on the Saxo, so win-win! The alignment isn't exactly as per OEM, but it's close enough!
With the close of 2014 seeing the Saxo hit the road, 2015 brought with it some cold realities:
(For Fareham, that is A LOT of snow!)
But no, the drop in temperature wasn't related to the climate. It was more a cold reality that I wasn't enjoying the induction noise of the Saxo. I want my old French hot hatches to be waggly of tail, short of gear, and roarty of induction noise. The Saxo had two of these nailed, but not the third. A quick drive in another VTS we had in at Southways confirmed that an induction kit would, indeed, bring the noise.
I didn't want to spend actual money, but luckily the guy who had the axle off me the year before was breaking a 106, and he gave me the induction kit from it.
Before fitting this, I shot blasted and painted the rocker covers in red crinkle paint. I did it more as a test before I did my TVR, but I'm kinda regretting it now!
Plan was to paint the fake carbon air box gloss black, but still haven't done that! But the induction kit did, at least, bring the noise. Induction sound is pretty good now, and it feels a more eager performer with it on there, though I'm sure that's just a placebo.
Speaking of eager performance, I'm lucky enough to have a rolling road at work. I've always felt the Saxo seemed even quicker than I would have expected, so I was keen to strap it onto the dyno to see what's what. Book figure is 118bhp DIN (DIN being the metric correction factor for horsepower). It was often rounded up to 120bhp.
For some reason, the standard 100k mile engine in the VTR? seemed to be rounding up to a higher number...
The corrected engine power line is the one to look at, as it's not variable by climate. 132.7bhp! And, it did 8 runs that day, before and after I installed waterless coolant in it. It actually averaged slightly more power (by about 0.5bhp) before the waterless stuff went in. That's no reflection on the coolant itself, as it could have easily been 0.5bhp the other way, but it does show Evans claim that you increase power is false, or certainly in the case of this car.
And it's also worth pointing out that the corrected figure above is SAE - one of the rare instances where the world has gone backwards and used imperial measurements. To put that into context, DIN (metric) is worth a bit more 'per horse', and a straight comparison with the original numbers results thus:
138.9bhp/122lbft! I've absolutely no idea where this comes from! It's a standard engine, I know that. It does run a Magnex full exhaust system, but to be honest, I wouldn't expect a gain from that.
I also know that quite a few of the PSA engines that go on here (the older ones, mainly) seem to always match or even beat their book figures. It's possible the VTS is under-quoted, and to be fair, they always feel faster than 120bhp, and seem to keep up with more serious machinery.
Since this, I've done more runs, with the lowest being 128bhp SAE, but normally matching the 132bhp. I'll try and do one again before 2018 ends, and see where it lands.
Regards the coolant, that was also installed in 2015. We became an agent for Evans coolants, and I wanted a trustworthy car to practice conversions on, and learn a bit about the product. What better car than the Saxo?!
The Saxo loves this stuff! It warms up more quickly in the winter (thanks to oil/coolant heat exchanger), and it's as clean today as the day it went in. It'll last the life of the engine too.
We filmed a video of the Saxo on the dyno at full temp, and at full chat. During the power run, we removed the coolant cap:
https://youtu.be/z9MW9FxamUE
Try doing that with water!
We move on to 2016, and it was time to address another issue - water. "Oi, nobhead! You just said you don't run it on water anymore!" Ah, yes, you're quite right. I'm talking about rainwater, which is sadly something we see quite a lot of in the UK (although I think 2018 has been pretty fair regards precipitation....maybe it's just me?!)
But yes, if it rains in the sky, it rains in the Saxo. It was coming in everywhere! The footwells would fill up; the windows would fog up, and if it was frosty overnight, you'd be de-icing the inside of the windows.
It was important to get this right, too. Why? Because I'm happy to report than my wife began to use the car to commute in once more! She got a job fairly local, and needed a small car to fit in the spaces, and the S-Max is too big, and gets bumped into all the time. So she - as is exactly how things should be - is using the Saxo daily at this point
But yes, she has wet feet. First off, the interior light was drained, and it was found the radio aerial was leaking, due to an old seal that was no longer.....well, sealing.
But that wasn't it. Window rubbers, door rubbers....you name it, I changed it. I even sealed up the sunroof in desperation, but still the Saxo continued to voluntarily try and keep the ground very slightly drier.
Eventually I gave in: The headlining had to come out. I knew the drainage tubes in the sunroof weren't blocked, but I didn't know if they were holed for some reason. The sunroof in these cars doesn't actually prevent water from getting past, you see. It's designed to allow a bit past, which collects in the drainage tray and exits via tubes in the corners of said tray. If they're blocked, the drain overflows into the cabin.
They weren't blocked, or holed, however. But the drainage tray was....
Dick sprouts!
At least I found the problem, finally. I treated the rusted areas, and laid up all manner of horrible water tight repairs, the likes of which must never see daylight again. But, if it looks stupid, and it works...it's not stupid. And it does work - the Saxo is dry once more.
(And no, there are no pictures....)
This is how the Saxo VTR? looked at the end of 2016, and it's pretty much how it looks today:
2017 saw no images taken of the Saxo. It was pressed into service once more, but in the autumn, problems began to develop.
First off, it was burning oil. Not in the combustion chambers, but on the manifolds, due to rocker covers that WILL NOT f
kING SEAL FOR LOVE NOR CHRIST ALMIGHTY fkING PSA YOU S!!!!! So that gave you a headache when you drove it.
Secondly, the steering developed a clonk. This car has always been a nightmare with noisy front suspension, and despite new wishbones, top mounts, dampers and droplinks, the noise persisted. It sounded more steering rack-related, and so became more of a concern.
Thirdly, it began randomly cutting out. The dials would go on the fritz, and it'd cut out completely. I found the quick-release battery terminals were well past their usefullness date, and so they were removed and replaced with conventional clamps. Not my prettiest work, but it's all I had to work with in a short space of time:
Although this cured the dial fritz issue, it still kept trying to randomly cut out. It wouldn't actually die any more, as per before, but it wasn't happy. KNowing that the timing belt was due again (through age, no mileage), and knowing that the clutch was pretty savage to use (a source of angst from my wife from day one, who missed the light, smooth clutch the VTR had fitted), and then realising that the steering rack would almost certainly mean engine out as there was no room to get to it, not to mention the wiring loom connectors that probably all need stripping and cleaning to find a bad connection that proves to be the source of it trying to cut-out.....oh, and the likely rust that will lurk in the chassis rails.....
Yeah. The Saxo came off the road last year. It was driven to a garage in Eastleigh, parked up, and the MoT expired. A fairly unceremonious finale to life as a faithful daily runaround, but there just wasn't the time to fix it at that point. It still wasn't worth anything financially, either.
In the interim period, Modern Classics magazine ran a feature on the Saxo VTS. I was contacted as it was believed I owned one. I said I didn't, but said I could probably still help with what they were after, and so (having first asked if my wife wanted to do it) the Saxo appeared briefly in the edition with the blue ex-Gavin & Stacey VTS vs. the MG ZR 160:
All that was left was time for some memories....
So let's see if I can wrap this up and bring us up to date!
Next up post-rust repairs, was to renew the lower engine mount bush/stabiliser. This had needed doing for some time, and being a Powerflex convert, I opted for one of their engine mounts. I use Powerflex in many cars, and I love the improved feel and response, but with an absence of harshness or vibration.
Bush fitted at around 5:45pm one day (original on the left, PF on the right):
PF bush removed and original reffited at around 6:30pm, after I'd tried starting the engine.
PF bush sold on eBay. Fillings replaced the following week.
One of the areas I wasn't happy with, if you cast your eyes back up a bit, was the John-boy exhaust. The tailpipe was just too damn big. The exhaust note was deep and boomy too. It had to go, but with an absence of decent OE style exhausts on the market now (most cheap aftermarket stuff is awful, and doesn't fit properly), keeping the Magnex was still beneficial in many ways. It wasn't too loud with the cat in (popped and banging without it though!)
I set about trying to improve the look:
Granted, it doesn't look much better now. But wait...
As tempting as it was to keep the pea-shooter, my sister had recent had a new backbox fitted to her 206 GTi, and her original was going in the skip. Not before I harvested the tailpipe, however:
The 206 tailpipe is almost identical to the types used on the Saxo, so win-win! The alignment isn't exactly as per OEM, but it's close enough!
With the close of 2014 seeing the Saxo hit the road, 2015 brought with it some cold realities:
(For Fareham, that is A LOT of snow!)
But no, the drop in temperature wasn't related to the climate. It was more a cold reality that I wasn't enjoying the induction noise of the Saxo. I want my old French hot hatches to be waggly of tail, short of gear, and roarty of induction noise. The Saxo had two of these nailed, but not the third. A quick drive in another VTS we had in at Southways confirmed that an induction kit would, indeed, bring the noise.
I didn't want to spend actual money, but luckily the guy who had the axle off me the year before was breaking a 106, and he gave me the induction kit from it.
Before fitting this, I shot blasted and painted the rocker covers in red crinkle paint. I did it more as a test before I did my TVR, but I'm kinda regretting it now!
Plan was to paint the fake carbon air box gloss black, but still haven't done that! But the induction kit did, at least, bring the noise. Induction sound is pretty good now, and it feels a more eager performer with it on there, though I'm sure that's just a placebo.
Speaking of eager performance, I'm lucky enough to have a rolling road at work. I've always felt the Saxo seemed even quicker than I would have expected, so I was keen to strap it onto the dyno to see what's what. Book figure is 118bhp DIN (DIN being the metric correction factor for horsepower). It was often rounded up to 120bhp.
For some reason, the standard 100k mile engine in the VTR? seemed to be rounding up to a higher number...
The corrected engine power line is the one to look at, as it's not variable by climate. 132.7bhp! And, it did 8 runs that day, before and after I installed waterless coolant in it. It actually averaged slightly more power (by about 0.5bhp) before the waterless stuff went in. That's no reflection on the coolant itself, as it could have easily been 0.5bhp the other way, but it does show Evans claim that you increase power is false, or certainly in the case of this car.
And it's also worth pointing out that the corrected figure above is SAE - one of the rare instances where the world has gone backwards and used imperial measurements. To put that into context, DIN (metric) is worth a bit more 'per horse', and a straight comparison with the original numbers results thus:
138.9bhp/122lbft! I've absolutely no idea where this comes from! It's a standard engine, I know that. It does run a Magnex full exhaust system, but to be honest, I wouldn't expect a gain from that.
I also know that quite a few of the PSA engines that go on here (the older ones, mainly) seem to always match or even beat their book figures. It's possible the VTS is under-quoted, and to be fair, they always feel faster than 120bhp, and seem to keep up with more serious machinery.
Since this, I've done more runs, with the lowest being 128bhp SAE, but normally matching the 132bhp. I'll try and do one again before 2018 ends, and see where it lands.
Regards the coolant, that was also installed in 2015. We became an agent for Evans coolants, and I wanted a trustworthy car to practice conversions on, and learn a bit about the product. What better car than the Saxo?!
The Saxo loves this stuff! It warms up more quickly in the winter (thanks to oil/coolant heat exchanger), and it's as clean today as the day it went in. It'll last the life of the engine too.
We filmed a video of the Saxo on the dyno at full temp, and at full chat. During the power run, we removed the coolant cap:
https://youtu.be/z9MW9FxamUE
Try doing that with water!
We move on to 2016, and it was time to address another issue - water. "Oi, nobhead! You just said you don't run it on water anymore!" Ah, yes, you're quite right. I'm talking about rainwater, which is sadly something we see quite a lot of in the UK (although I think 2018 has been pretty fair regards precipitation....maybe it's just me?!)
But yes, if it rains in the sky, it rains in the Saxo. It was coming in everywhere! The footwells would fill up; the windows would fog up, and if it was frosty overnight, you'd be de-icing the inside of the windows.
It was important to get this right, too. Why? Because I'm happy to report than my wife began to use the car to commute in once more! She got a job fairly local, and needed a small car to fit in the spaces, and the S-Max is too big, and gets bumped into all the time. So she - as is exactly how things should be - is using the Saxo daily at this point
But yes, she has wet feet. First off, the interior light was drained, and it was found the radio aerial was leaking, due to an old seal that was no longer.....well, sealing.
But that wasn't it. Window rubbers, door rubbers....you name it, I changed it. I even sealed up the sunroof in desperation, but still the Saxo continued to voluntarily try and keep the ground very slightly drier.
Eventually I gave in: The headlining had to come out. I knew the drainage tubes in the sunroof weren't blocked, but I didn't know if they were holed for some reason. The sunroof in these cars doesn't actually prevent water from getting past, you see. It's designed to allow a bit past, which collects in the drainage tray and exits via tubes in the corners of said tray. If they're blocked, the drain overflows into the cabin.
They weren't blocked, or holed, however. But the drainage tray was....
Dick sprouts!
At least I found the problem, finally. I treated the rusted areas, and laid up all manner of horrible water tight repairs, the likes of which must never see daylight again. But, if it looks stupid, and it works...it's not stupid. And it does work - the Saxo is dry once more.
(And no, there are no pictures....)
This is how the Saxo VTR? looked at the end of 2016, and it's pretty much how it looks today:
2017 saw no images taken of the Saxo. It was pressed into service once more, but in the autumn, problems began to develop.
First off, it was burning oil. Not in the combustion chambers, but on the manifolds, due to rocker covers that WILL NOT f
kING SEAL FOR LOVE NOR CHRIST ALMIGHTY fkING PSA YOU S!!!!! So that gave you a headache when you drove it.Secondly, the steering developed a clonk. This car has always been a nightmare with noisy front suspension, and despite new wishbones, top mounts, dampers and droplinks, the noise persisted. It sounded more steering rack-related, and so became more of a concern.
Thirdly, it began randomly cutting out. The dials would go on the fritz, and it'd cut out completely. I found the quick-release battery terminals were well past their usefullness date, and so they were removed and replaced with conventional clamps. Not my prettiest work, but it's all I had to work with in a short space of time:
Although this cured the dial fritz issue, it still kept trying to randomly cut out. It wouldn't actually die any more, as per before, but it wasn't happy. KNowing that the timing belt was due again (through age, no mileage), and knowing that the clutch was pretty savage to use (a source of angst from my wife from day one, who missed the light, smooth clutch the VTR had fitted), and then realising that the steering rack would almost certainly mean engine out as there was no room to get to it, not to mention the wiring loom connectors that probably all need stripping and cleaning to find a bad connection that proves to be the source of it trying to cut-out.....oh, and the likely rust that will lurk in the chassis rails.....
Yeah. The Saxo came off the road last year. It was driven to a garage in Eastleigh, parked up, and the MoT expired. A fairly unceremonious finale to life as a faithful daily runaround, but there just wasn't the time to fix it at that point. It still wasn't worth anything financially, either.
In the interim period, Modern Classics magazine ran a feature on the Saxo VTS. I was contacted as it was believed I owned one. I said I didn't, but said I could probably still help with what they were after, and so (having first asked if my wife wanted to do it) the Saxo appeared briefly in the edition with the blue ex-Gavin & Stacey VTS vs. the MG ZR 160:
All that was left was time for some memories....
It's like all my threads have been some weird, dull set of origins movie titles, and this thread is the Avengers Assemble!
Here it is in Winchester, 2005. My wife's first uni house. That's one of my AX GTs behind it:
2010, Fareham. We'd just moved house. You can see the BX 16v here (of 'bodged BX 16v thread'), along with the Mondeo ST200 we bought as a family car. Funny that despite having the larger engine (2.5 V6), the Mondeo was the slowest sprinter in this picture!:
The Saxo more recently, in 2016 and in some esteemed (and probably known to some of you) company:
Awww...TU friend!:
2018 is here now. The question is, is the Saxo?
And if so, what's become of it.....?
Here it is in Winchester, 2005. My wife's first uni house. That's one of my AX GTs behind it:
2010, Fareham. We'd just moved house. You can see the BX 16v here (of 'bodged BX 16v thread'), along with the Mondeo ST200 we bought as a family car. Funny that despite having the larger engine (2.5 V6), the Mondeo was the slowest sprinter in this picture!:
The Saxo more recently, in 2016 and in some esteemed (and probably known to some of you) company:
Awww...TU friend!:
2018 is here now. The question is, is the Saxo?
And if so, what's become of it.....?
Brilliant thread.
I dont have a great attention span but have read all of this, beautifully written!
I've had 2 Saxos over years and an AX...and two ZXs.....got a thing for Citroens of that era.
Sadly my Saxos were only the a 96 1.1 SX and a 2001 1.1 Desire. No comparison to a VTR or VTS but went very well for a 1.1, particularly the later one.
Anyway, fantastic stuff....and i hope it's still around...........
I dont have a great attention span but have read all of this, beautifully written!
I've had 2 Saxos over years and an AX...and two ZXs.....got a thing for Citroens of that era.
Sadly my Saxos were only the a 96 1.1 SX and a 2001 1.1 Desire. No comparison to a VTR or VTS but went very well for a 1.1, particularly the later one.
Anyway, fantastic stuff....and i hope it's still around...........
Time to bring things up to date!
4th November 2018:
The Saxo is unearthed from the garage it's been holed up in for around 18 months. A MoT has been booked so that it can be driven back to Fareham.
....only it won't. Why? Because it won't start! One of the reasons the car was stowed away was an intermittent cutting-out issue, and it seems that it's an issue that has stepped up a gear to prevent the engine running.
Amazingly, the battery STILL had charge! It's a Bosch unit, went on just before the car went away, and it still had enough charge to fire the engine over when I came back. No trickle chargers or anything in sight!
I can hear a relay going nuts around the ECU area, so it's time to have a look and see what's around:
Under the ECU, there is a section of loom which is supposed to be secured into a clip. On the end of the loom, is a big fat multi-pin relay:
Essentially, it's a double relay. It controls the fuel pump (which wasn't running or priming) and the injectors. I had no way of testing this, but the fact it was tripping out, coupled to the fact that when I shook it, I could hear something rattling inside led me to suspect it was faulty. I had to abandon collection and come back on the 6th. Just as well....the 4th was a Sunday, so my MoT-less drive to a closed MoT station might not have gone down well in the event of a tug.
The 6th rolled around, and I went back to the Saxo armed with a new relay. Fitted the new relay, and the car started. 20secs later it died, and the relay started tripping out again. Balls.
Eventually I got it going again, but this time got in and held it on the throttle. By doing that, it didn't cut out, and once it had run for a while, it would sit and idle happily again. The only thing I can think of is that the battery was low (unsurprisingly), and that the first time, the relay was indeed duff (as I'd tried some jump leads on the 4th just in case it was battery related). On the 6th, it might have cut out and started going nuts because the battery was low, and a bit of revving saw some juice back in it. Maybe. Or not....
Anyway, the Saxo was running, and I was away to get it in for an MoT:
Bit of a nervy time sat in traffic! It behaved faultlessly for some time, but then I noticed it kept trying to cut out on me when I was on a trailing throttle (which is pretty much how you always drive it - you just rest your foot on the gas). Giving it more welly was fine, it was just this one particular section of throttle travel.
With that in mind, I ordered a new throttle potentiometer. These car wear out if a car is driven most of the time at the same throttle position, which a VTS very much is. Keeping fingers crossed, I fitted this right away. Access was......well, some moron put a strut brace in the way, so....
(genuine original on left, Intermotor jobbie on right....got to be better than a broken one!)
This didn't cure the problem! I thought it had, but the Saxo performed its favourite trick of letting me work on it, then behaving long enough for me to relax in a bath of satisfaction that I'd repaired the car successfully, before suddenly failing in exactly the same manner as before. Still, I know it's not the TP!
An MoT was passed with an advisory on the rear axle, which has a small amount of play in a trailing arm bearing.
It was taxed and put straight into service, as is. The cutting out issue wasn't so bad that it couldn't be used, and the clutch, cambelt, suspension/steering knock and leaking oil will all be sorted in due course.
Plans are afoot to spend some time giving the little Saxo some overdue love and TLC. For the weekend just gone, we had some kid-free time and so took it out on both days, rather than any of the other cars we have. Covered around 100 miles overall, and forgot just how well it goes!
Dead easy to park in a space - it's tiny!
The fumes from the leaking oil (which is dropping straight onto the exhaust manifold) is pretty severe, so it'll be in the workshop shortly for some major work, which I'll document on her.
Also in the pipeline are:
4th November 2018:
The Saxo is unearthed from the garage it's been holed up in for around 18 months. A MoT has been booked so that it can be driven back to Fareham.
....only it won't. Why? Because it won't start! One of the reasons the car was stowed away was an intermittent cutting-out issue, and it seems that it's an issue that has stepped up a gear to prevent the engine running.
Amazingly, the battery STILL had charge! It's a Bosch unit, went on just before the car went away, and it still had enough charge to fire the engine over when I came back. No trickle chargers or anything in sight!
I can hear a relay going nuts around the ECU area, so it's time to have a look and see what's around:
Under the ECU, there is a section of loom which is supposed to be secured into a clip. On the end of the loom, is a big fat multi-pin relay:
Essentially, it's a double relay. It controls the fuel pump (which wasn't running or priming) and the injectors. I had no way of testing this, but the fact it was tripping out, coupled to the fact that when I shook it, I could hear something rattling inside led me to suspect it was faulty. I had to abandon collection and come back on the 6th. Just as well....the 4th was a Sunday, so my MoT-less drive to a closed MoT station might not have gone down well in the event of a tug.
The 6th rolled around, and I went back to the Saxo armed with a new relay. Fitted the new relay, and the car started. 20secs later it died, and the relay started tripping out again. Balls.
Eventually I got it going again, but this time got in and held it on the throttle. By doing that, it didn't cut out, and once it had run for a while, it would sit and idle happily again. The only thing I can think of is that the battery was low (unsurprisingly), and that the first time, the relay was indeed duff (as I'd tried some jump leads on the 4th just in case it was battery related). On the 6th, it might have cut out and started going nuts because the battery was low, and a bit of revving saw some juice back in it. Maybe. Or not....
Anyway, the Saxo was running, and I was away to get it in for an MoT:
Bit of a nervy time sat in traffic! It behaved faultlessly for some time, but then I noticed it kept trying to cut out on me when I was on a trailing throttle (which is pretty much how you always drive it - you just rest your foot on the gas). Giving it more welly was fine, it was just this one particular section of throttle travel.
With that in mind, I ordered a new throttle potentiometer. These car wear out if a car is driven most of the time at the same throttle position, which a VTS very much is. Keeping fingers crossed, I fitted this right away. Access was......well, some moron put a strut brace in the way, so....
(genuine original on left, Intermotor jobbie on right....got to be better than a broken one!)
This didn't cure the problem! I thought it had, but the Saxo performed its favourite trick of letting me work on it, then behaving long enough for me to relax in a bath of satisfaction that I'd repaired the car successfully, before suddenly failing in exactly the same manner as before. Still, I know it's not the TP!
An MoT was passed with an advisory on the rear axle, which has a small amount of play in a trailing arm bearing.
It was taxed and put straight into service, as is. The cutting out issue wasn't so bad that it couldn't be used, and the clutch, cambelt, suspension/steering knock and leaking oil will all be sorted in due course.
Plans are afoot to spend some time giving the little Saxo some overdue love and TLC. For the weekend just gone, we had some kid-free time and so took it out on both days, rather than any of the other cars we have. Covered around 100 miles overall, and forgot just how well it goes!
Dead easy to park in a space - it's tiny!
The fumes from the leaking oil (which is dropping straight onto the exhaust manifold) is pretty severe, so it'll be in the workshop shortly for some major work, which I'll document on her.
Also in the pipeline are:
- Powerflex bushes
- New clutch
- New timing belt
- Steering knock fix (I have a feeling it might actually be a damper....again)
- Some rubbing down/welding/painting
- Reseal rocker covers (and possibly cam carriers, though hopefully not)
- Replacement OE exhaust. I have a genuine backbox, brand new, but no centre section yet. All the aftermarket ones look cack!
- Have just received a pair of brand new headlamps. £58!
- Have ordered 4x new tyres, but to fit the VTR rims, as we've decided to run it on those as it'll drive nicer (and look pretty much original externally by this point)
- Lower strut brace - possibly.
- Prep and undersealing at the back end, ready for the winter.
bangerhoarder said:
As you're obviously not going for originality with this, have you thought about fitting the TU5JP4 cam covers? It's a straight swap I believe, and they seal much easier. Had them on a 106 GTi and that didn't leak, where a second 106 GTi with the alloy covers did.
It is a straight swap, yes. They're plastic covers, and they have separate gaskets. Stupidly, I don't like the look of them. The car isn't original, but I want all the parts fitted to be of the correct era, and ideally from a Saxo, so I'd rather have the engine looking like a VTS one (which is why I'm debating getting rid of all the red s
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