540HP NA 7L V12 3 seater

[F1natic]

SpeckledJim said:

Aaargh! Noooooooo! It wouldn't last a month.

Probably right, my wife thinks that's about how long it will last anyway. Apparently this car is one of the most elaborate suicides she has ever seen.....but I have good life insurance so she is all for it!

Planning to use the standard VW corrado rear view mirrors, reverse engineering from photos is not the most accurate. Unfortunately there were about 16 corrado's sold in total in NZ - so like hens teeth. If anyone has some on hand I would appreciate double checking of a few of the main dimensions. I have been modelling the body for so long that it feels like putting barn doors on the exterior, however having decent rearward visibility is a certification requirement - hence standard units in standard position.

view from mirror to drivers eyeline;


view to lane behind;

[LaurasOtherHalf]

I presume legislation means the original wing mirror location is not possible?

[normalbloke]

_dobbo_ said:

normalbloke said:

So, can anyone summarise? We’ve got 12 pages on the thread, has the o/p started it yet?

This is a bit of a douchey comment. This isn't a hit and run project thread with no details, this is an amazingly detailed build thread and one of the best on PH in my opinion.

No-one is obliged to summarise for you, F1anatic updates this thread constantly, either read the posts or GTFO

Thanks for the summary, perfect.

[F1natic]

LaurasOtherHalf said:

I presume legislation means the original wing mirror location is not possible?

There have been 2 accepted into NZ road fleet already with the std production position so in an effort to reduce potential impediments am going with the barn doors, which also suit mounting to the door. I would prefer the higher BMW Z1 mirrors, but they are even harder to source, if anyone has a set of those I would be very interested in getting some dimensions also.

[_dobbo_]

F1natic said:

Apparently this car is one of the most elaborate suicides she has ever seen.....b

This properly made me laugh

[_dobbo_]

normalbloke said:

_dobbo_ said:

normalbloke said:

So, can anyone summarise? We’ve got 12 pages on the thread, has the o/p started it yet?

This is a bit of a douchey comment. This isn't a hit and run project thread with no details, this is an amazingly detailed build thread and one of the best on PH in my opinion.

No-one is obliged to summarise for you, F1anatic updates this thread constantly, either read the posts or GTFO

Thanks for the summary, perfect.

[_dobbo_]

F1natic said:

There have been 2 accepted into NZ road fleet already with the std production position so in an effort to reduce potential impediments am going with the barn doors, which also suit mounting to the door. I would prefer the higher BMW Z1 mirrors, but they are even harder to source, if anyone has a set of those I would be very interested in getting some dimensions also.

I know there are places where people with 3d printers will 3d print you a model if you pay them - or maybe you even have access to one already - so if you could get a good enough model of a Z1 mirror, or even design your own housing based around a mirror glass that was suitable, I wonder if you could get something 3d printed?

[F1natic]

_dobbo_ said:

I know there are places where people with 3d printers will 3d print you a model

Any components that are on the pedestrian encountering surfaces must have the correct collapse, bend or breakaway on impact without leaving sharp edges, rigid mounting points or dangerous protrusions. If the mirrors are sourced from a european production vehicle manufactured after 1st Jan 1971 then it meets the LTSA regulations, as long as it is unmodified and mounted to replicate the donor location and installation method (clause 15.18.1 Lvvta CCM), so it should be a rubber stamping exercise to approve the VW units for use. There is provision for custom made mirrors as long as they meet the guidelines above, however given the scope of the project I think I will be quite happy to have a std item just to bolt on near the end stages.

[F1natic]

Also been researching how to implement the gauge cluster - to save time, money and weight it will be a digital cluster. Very impressed by Richards' efforts on his TVR;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQGvMglY72Y&t=...

The digital solution is a flexible method of implementing feedback from each engine and the transmissions. Datalogging and exception alerts are probably the most valuable features, as looking at gauges will not be the priority during the first test runs. However the multi-function display is also great for giving highly detailed status of a vehicle system during a shakedown run, without the need for a laptop to be plugged in.

[_dobbo_]

F1natic said:

_dobbo_ said:

I know there are places where people with 3d printers will 3d print you a model

Any components that are on the pedestrian encountering surfaces must have the correct collapse, bend or breakaway on impact without leaving sharp edges, rigid mounting points or dangerous protrusions. If the mirrors are sourced from a european production vehicle manufactured after 1st Jan 1971 then it meets the LTSA regulations, as long as it is unmodified and mounted to replicate the donor location and installation method (clause 15.18.1 Lvvta CCM), so it should be a rubber stamping exercise to approve the VW units for use. There is provision for custom made mirrors as long as they meet the guidelines above, however given the scope of the project I think I will be quite happy to have a std item just to bolt on near the end stages.

Fascinating detail, A thought because I've seen it done in the UK for IVA test, because there is a thread on this very sub-forum where it's happening now.

Could you not whack on any old mirrors to pass the tests and then move to whatever you wanted later? I know that's entirely the wrong thing to do but still....

I remember swapping mirrors on my fiesta 25ish years ago and not giving any though to regs!

[F1natic]

Not anymore Dobbo, RFID tags have just been implemented in NZ for just the reason you are suggesting. LVVTA Blurb below.

So now the police can pull over a vehicle and access photos of the "as certified" condition of the car, cheating the system with subsequent part swapping just got a lot harder. I am all for sticking to the safety regulations, and the technology gives certifiers and other road user some protection. Although how well they would spot a subtle detail remains to be seen.......

[Psycho Warren]

F1natic said:

Splines are the most powerful tool in the CAD library,

I agree but so much easier to use than trying to manipulate a mesh or polygon file from scans or similar! I'm drawing a car model based as a replica and the CAD is so much easier using splines. I tend to use the mesh as a sketch to manipulate the splines over to get the desired shape.

[Psycho Warren]

F1natic said:

So now the police can pull over a vehicle and access photos of the "as certified" condition of the car, cheating the system with subsequent part swapping just got a lot harder.

Spoil sports!!

its pretty commonplace here to swap out details post IVA. Eg get rid of the lame padded steering wheel and massive mirrors on a cobra replica and replace with more period wooden rim and small round mirrors.

I guess we will follow suit soon enough with something similar.

Is there a big problem with dangerously modified/custom cars in NZ or is it just heavy handed safety culture gone too far?

[TekoTime]

Psycho Warren said:

Is there a big problem with dangerously modified/custom cars in NZ or is it just heavy handed safety culture gone too far?

It's both. LVVT is a real ball ache. If you modify your car in any meaningful way, like coilovers, or a 20%+ power gain, you have to go through cert, which costs around £300. If you change anything later, you have to go through cert again. If you add more power, or do an engine swap, you have to add a driveshaft hoop even if there's a more powerful model available as standard. The wheel size is recorded and if you change it later you need a re-cert. Yet if your car hasn't been through cert you can change your wheel size within reason without getting it checked. If you modify the suspension, it has to be from a manufacturer that the certifier is familiar with. If you weld custom suspension arms (I.e. for a scratch build) the design has to be preapproved by the technical committee and it has to be TIG welded to a specific criteria. It can't be MIG welded. The material size and thickness has to meet certain criteria. Meanwhile, in the UK people just slap some old pipe together with their Halfords gasless MIG machine and call it a day.

I get that it's all about keeping cars safe, but the people most likely to dangerously modify their cars don't even know what cert is. I have a friend who had his ute lowered by heating up the springs on the advice of a garage. He didn't realise what a bad idea that was, never mind what cert is.


I'm working on putting a Seven type car through LVVT but the amount of work involved means it keeps being put on the back-burner while I sort more important life problems.

[Psycho Warren]

TekoTime said:

I get that it's all about keeping cars safe, but the people most likely to dangerously modify their cars don't even know what cert is. I have a friend who had his ute lowered by heating up the springs on the advice of a garage. He didn't realise what a bad idea that was, never mind what cert is.

The cert system seems totally overkill. Why don't they just get the local MoT or equivalent people to check basic mods? Having a committee is a bit crazy.

Sounds more like they don't want people to modify cars and only provide a pathway thats as awkward as possible because they have to.

Ie most of europe is like that.

[james_TW]

Given the likeness with the F1, will there be any issues with design and any possible copyright issues at all?

[Psycho Warren]

There are already a couple of kit cars with very close bodywork that haven't been bothered yet, so I suspect he will be fine unless he's going for milimetric precision and McClaren go all "mercedes" on his ass.

[TekoTime]

Psycho Warren said:

The cert system seems totally overkill. Why don't they just get the local MoT or equivalent people to check basic mods? Having a committee is a bit crazy.

Sounds more like they don't want people to modify cars and only provide a pathway thats as awkward as possible because they have to.

Ie most of europe is like that.

For basic things like coilovers from a known manufacturer, certain MoT stations can do a cert, but it's still about £300. If you have a few mods in mind it's best to do them all at the same time.

It's pretty frustrating when you spend so much effort working to minute details, like the corner radius on spreader plates, then you go out and see an old Commodore with dents and scabby paint worth maybe be £1,000 with the wheels all the way inside the arches. You know they haven't spent £300 getting their £1,000 suspension checked off.

But at the end of it all, I'm sure it would be immensely satisfying to have someone sign off on my work and say it meets a high standard.

[8bit]

james_TW said:

Given the likeness with the F1, will there be any issues with design and any possible copyright issues at all?

That would only be an issue if the OP was building these for sale, surely?

[F1natic]

TekoTime said:

It's both. LVVT is a real ball ache.

That is their reputation, I have heard some horror stories. However I also talked to Tony at LVVTA before I started my project and he was really supportive, so I really feel this is one of those organisations that you have to work with to get what you want. No sense in fighting the flow of a river, better to divert it for your purposes. They claim to be focused on safety and that suits me.

As far as replicas are concerned there was a really good discussion on Flemke's thread (Vol 5 page 337). With over 25 years having passed since the design was released the copyright/patents/trademarks in most regions have expired. If the vehicle was actually in the USA then the Lanham Act/trade dress could be relevant, if Mclaren felt threatened by my car, which is very unlikely. The Sema Replica law allows for small volume replicas to be built under license if the design is older than 25 years, but again not relevant in my case because I am in NZ.

I never read if Jacek Mazur/Artiplastzabrze had any issues with his multiple copies of the F1. I think the Total headturners example was one of his, and was even displayed at Goodwood. If that didn't rile Mclaren up I am not sure what would. Ferrari have been very protective, even here in NZ when they shut down the F40 project (Silhouette S40).

Psycho Warren, I am not aware of the Mercedes affair you are referring, could you please give me a pointer?

I would probalby have just as much fun if it was an exoframe death kart (leroy style), but that would be another 4B design application.

Regardless I will hold fast and keep plugging away on the current course. The exhaust manifolds are on the 3D printer in the background and will be cast in HT grade stainless steel shortly, in preparation for the test engine first fire up.