Discussion
Monkeylegend said:
There are other ways of keeping a poster away who is disrupting an interesting thread.
I would have called him names previously if I had known it would be that successful. LOLI try to stay as friendly and non serious as possible on forums because in the grand scheme of things, tinkering in the garage is way down my list of priorities in life, just a little higher than telling people online about it.
I have a problem with people cherry picking information to suit themselves though, that is stooping quite low to try and save face on an anonymous forum
agent006 said:
C70R said:
You're coming across as a complete d!ck here though.
Only here? He's like it wherever he goes on here and it undermines the enormous wealth of knowledge he has. He's clearly a very good engineer with a vast amount of experience, which is all the more of a shame that he can't help getting so worked up about things.I really, really shouldn't, but......
You quite rightly point out that V8 Defenders (and Series III; well OK, lets not miss the minutiae, the Stage One version, oh and the FC) do exist, and as such SOME parts are interchangeable. But mine will be a 3.9i auto, running a 14CUX injection system, and sadly there aren't many of the 1000-ish 50ths lying around that I can rob bits like transmission tunnels from. So I've had to make and modify some parts. And just like the OP, maybe somewhere on the internet I can find someone who'll sell me a 50th Conversion Kit for £25k. But (a) I'd rather make it myself and (b) again like the OP, the net cost to me of mine once I sell on the original engine, gearbox and O/D will probably be under £1000.
Having owned and worked on a fair number of Solihull's finest, I have more than half an idea what I'm talking about, but I'm not trying to ram it down anyone's throat.
There are ways of putting one's message across. If you do it correctly people will say "well thanks very much, that's good to know, and really useful" whereas if you come across as arrogant and overbearing, it will turn people off your message immediately.
Max_Torque said:
Another poster pointed out they had put a v8 in a defender, but failed to point out that a defender is a non structural body on a ladder chassis, and that a V8 defender is a model actually sold by the OE, hence it's both legal and easy to V8 swap a defender in a way that is simply not comparable with chopping up a unibody car to do the same.
"But failed to point out"??? I also failed to point out that I had my garden fence renewed last year, and that the streetlights where I live are LED. However, neither those pieces of information, nor the construction of a Defender, were relevant to the post to which you keep referring. I was just chatting to someone else who's swapping an engine. He's playing football, I'm skiing. We're both doing sport.You quite rightly point out that V8 Defenders (and Series III; well OK, lets not miss the minutiae, the Stage One version, oh and the FC) do exist, and as such SOME parts are interchangeable. But mine will be a 3.9i auto, running a 14CUX injection system, and sadly there aren't many of the 1000-ish 50ths lying around that I can rob bits like transmission tunnels from. So I've had to make and modify some parts. And just like the OP, maybe somewhere on the internet I can find someone who'll sell me a 50th Conversion Kit for £25k. But (a) I'd rather make it myself and (b) again like the OP, the net cost to me of mine once I sell on the original engine, gearbox and O/D will probably be under £1000.
Having owned and worked on a fair number of Solihull's finest, I have more than half an idea what I'm talking about, but I'm not trying to ram it down anyone's throat.
There are ways of putting one's message across. If you do it correctly people will say "well thanks very much, that's good to know, and really useful" whereas if you come across as arrogant and overbearing, it will turn people off your message immediately.
croyde said:
Oh dear. Even a build thread turns into a slanging match. What's wrong with PH these days?
Keep up the good work OP.
Wrong? It's a discussion forum. That's the point. if you don't want a discussion, or can't handle people having an opinion that isn't your's then don't post. Simple.Keep up the good work OP.
I haven't insulted anyone, or called then names. I merely attempted to inform the OP (as did others with experience of similar projects) that they were being a bit "economical" with the truth, when it comes to the legality of their modifications, should they want to re-register the car for the public road.
I will point out that statements made by the OP, perhaps in jest, but made never the less, such as:
jaffman said:
The boot floor was also cut out due to rot which I have no problem replacing with a flat floor panel. If that was the only thing I had changed I’d not tell anyone either. Risk/reward and all that
did not cause me to form a picture of the OP as someone who was going to entirely fore-fill their obligations. Was i wrong to form that opinion, quite possibly, but that was the opinion i formed from the OP's replies.Now, the OP has said that they will "IVA the vehicle if it needs it" which is great to hear, because if the vehicle is to be used on the public road, and it would be a pity to put all this work into such a terrific conversion and not use it on the road, then is does need it.
From the other threads on this car on different forums, it looks like the OP is doing a really good job with this conversion, and as i have said before, i am in no way against people doing such conversions. They OP has clearly both put in a lot of time and effort, and applied a significant amount of skill to get to where they have, and it's really good to see people with a passion for cars still carrying out such "crazy" conversions.
I will always try to be fair and objective, to avoid name calling, to stick to facts, and to be able to discuss those facts as necessary!
CAPP0 said:
I really, really shouldn't, but......
You quite rightly point out that V8 Defenders (and Series III; well OK, lets not miss the minutiae, the Stage One version, oh and the FC) do exist, and as such SOME parts are interchangeable. But mine will be a 3.9i auto, running a 14CUX injection system, and sadly there aren't many of the 1000-ish 50ths lying around that I can rob bits like transmission tunnels from. So I've had to make and modify some parts. And just like the OP, maybe somewhere on the internet I can find someone who'll sell me a 50th Conversion Kit for £25k. But (a) I'd rather make it myself and (b) again like the OP, the net cost to me of mine once I sell on the original engine, gearbox and O/D will probably be under £1000.
Having owned and worked on a fair number of Solihull's finest, I have more than half an idea what I'm talking about, but I'm not trying to ram it down anyone's throat.
There are ways of putting one's message across. If you do it correctly people will say "well thanks very much, that's good to know, and really useful" whereas if you come across as arrogant and overbearing, it will turn people off your message immediately.
I fully appologise if you thought i was in someway belittling your work (i wasn't). Max_Torque said:
Another poster pointed out they had put a v8 in a defender, but failed to point out that a defender is a non structural body on a ladder chassis, and that a V8 defender is a model actually sold by the OE, hence it's both legal and easy to V8 swap a defender in a way that is simply not comparable with chopping up a unibody car to do the same.
"But failed to point out"??? I also failed to point out that I had my garden fence renewed last year, and that the streetlights where I live are LED. However, neither those pieces of information, nor the construction of a Defender, were relevant to the post to which you keep referring. I was just chatting to someone else who's swapping an engine. He's playing football, I'm skiing. We're both doing sport.You quite rightly point out that V8 Defenders (and Series III; well OK, lets not miss the minutiae, the Stage One version, oh and the FC) do exist, and as such SOME parts are interchangeable. But mine will be a 3.9i auto, running a 14CUX injection system, and sadly there aren't many of the 1000-ish 50ths lying around that I can rob bits like transmission tunnels from. So I've had to make and modify some parts. And just like the OP, maybe somewhere on the internet I can find someone who'll sell me a 50th Conversion Kit for £25k. But (a) I'd rather make it myself and (b) again like the OP, the net cost to me of mine once I sell on the original engine, gearbox and O/D will probably be under £1000.
Having owned and worked on a fair number of Solihull's finest, I have more than half an idea what I'm talking about, but I'm not trying to ram it down anyone's throat.
There are ways of putting one's message across. If you do it correctly people will say "well thanks very much, that's good to know, and really useful" whereas if you come across as arrogant and overbearing, it will turn people off your message immediately.
By saying "failed to point out" I was merely attempting to try to explain that there is a world of difference, legally speaking, from carrying out a conversion on a ladder frame, non structural body landrover, especially where the factory have made that model as a series production model.
In this case, your post that said you have chopped up the transmission tunnel and that the DVLA changed the details of your land rover without requiring an IVA, and that clearly could have been easily misconstrued as to suggesting there might not be a need for an IVA test in the OPs particular case.
Max_Torque said:
DanielSan said:
agent006 said:
C70R said:
You're coming across as a complete d!ck here though.
Only here? He's like it wherever he goes on here and it undermines the enormous wealth of knowledge he has. He's clearly a very good engineer with a vast amount of experience, which is all the more of a shame that he can't help getting so worked up about things.
regardless. If they went round talking to people like that when they weren't behind a keyboard it wouldn't be long before someone smacked them in the gob. and yet, guess what, i'm not "smacked in the gob" very often (actually, never). People listen when i speak about cars, and that's because i know what i'm talking about and have the reputation to back it up. On forums, where everyone is a "expert via google" loads of people like yourself think you are more knowledgeable that they actually are. These people tend to fall short in the real world, the sort of person who are poor at putting across their point, cannot back that point up with any actual science, and then, just as you have, resorts to personal insults in order to try and save face"
Lets summarise this build thread, using actual quotes shall we:
The OP, quite clearly from the language they used did not fully understand their legal obligations as to the requirement to IVA a car that has had modifications to the unibody, namely:
jaffman said:
The boot floor was also cut out due to rot which I have no problem replacing with a flat floor panel. If that was the only thing I had changed I’d not tell anyone either. Risk/reward and all that
Another poster pointed out they had put a v8 in a defender, but failed to point out that a defender is a non structural body on a ladder chassis, and that a V8 defender is a model actually sold by the OE, hence it's both legal and easy to V8 swap a defender in a way that is simply not comparable with chopping up a unibody car to do the same.at which point i said:
MaxTorque said:
Please understand that a Landrover 90 has a non-structural body mounted on a seperate ladder frame chassis. This makes it very different to your Focus
andMaxTorque said:
You, as a private individual are legally obliged (if you want to use the car in the road, and fair enough you haven't said you will be) to get your car IVA tested if you cut or modify the unibody of it in any significant way. "in any significant way" means you would need to be able to prove, using engineering fact (ie a qualified engineer report) that your modifications have or have not in any way changed the strength, stiffness or load paths of the vehicle structure. From the pictures you have already posted, it's clear that your cuts have already more than passed the point that your changed would be considered "significant".
I said and clarified several times, that i fully support his project, but only if it were to be done legally. Unfortunately, as is often the case, the OP took my advice as criticism, because that advice differed from the path they had already made up their mind on. jaffman said:
I’m really struggling to understand what you’re trying to achieve here. I understand what is required if I need to make the car road legal, I’ve explained the pictures make it look worse than it is. In its current state I could get standard non rotting inner arches and weld them back in along with a flat boot floor and nobody would know any different. I take your point with the tunnel - not knowing about land rovers it didn’t seem that such a throwaway comment would be taken so seriously.
Again, clearly the OP is under the missapprehension that they can modify the structure of a unibody car, in this case the boot floor (which is an integral part of the rear crash structure on a modern car) and avoid having to get the car IVA'd. They used the phrase "nobody would know any different". to which i replied:
MaxTorque said:
you CANNOT just weld in a flat boot floor and remain legal. "nobody knowing any different" is not a legally robust defence. An engineers report (such as that carried out by the police/insurance company should your vehicle be involved in an accident......) would clearly spot the fact you have added non standard suspension, subframe and modified the unibody to accept those changes.
The OP replied:jaffman said:
Dude, it was clear when I first said if it needs to be road legal then I know what is required.
I don’t understand why you continue to labour the same point.
When it was quite clear they did not in fact know what is required (the suggestion that you could "weld in a plate and nobody would know the difference")I don’t understand why you continue to labour the same point.
They went on to say:
jaffman said:
I am well aware of unibody chassis and how they are built and why they are built and how they are made structurally sound.
to which i replied:MaxTorque said:
And your qualification or demonstrable competence in structural engineering is?
Yes, i'm playing devils advocate, and you don't like that, but compared to standing up in front of an actual advocate accused of manslaughter, i'm an easy listener.......
You'll note i even put in the point that i was playing devils advocate, but that the reason for that is the seriousness of the situation, with regard to both their safety, their financial obligations and the safety of others.Yes, i'm playing devils advocate, and you don't like that, but compared to standing up in front of an actual advocate accused of manslaughter, i'm an easy listener.......
At that point, the OP got all stroppy, called themselves a "chimp", and because i had not given them anywhere to hide, they couldn't bulls*it there way though any more, and rather than acknowledge the truth of the situation, they did that modern thing of doubling down rather than admitting they needed to do a bit more research and investigate what actually was required for them to build this car.
Despite this, i said:
MaxTorque said:
I have never called you a chimp. Plenty of people weld stuff together in our sheds and garages. However, just because you or i think we know what we are doing, does not mean we do, which is why we have a system such as the IVA test, that acts as a final, independent arbiter to our work. My car has a heavily modified unibody. I'm a automotive engineer with 25 years of direct experience in the design and development of passenger cars. I have done FEA and ADAMS simulations and stress calculations to back up my modifications, and yet, yes, my car was required to be IVA'd by the independent body of our department of transport. I had to provide an second independent engineers report on my car despite my specific knowledge and skill. This is how it should be. I just like you, am not above the law.
I'm not derailing your thread. Your thread is about a "Ford Focus V8" and as Ford never built this car, a suitable level of engineering, fabrication and yes, the necessity of an IVA test to validate that work is in fact central to this thread.
So, go ahead, build your car, get it suitably tested and registered and i'll be first in line to shake your hand, pat you on the back and tell you "epic job dude" !!! :-)
In summary, so you think i'm a know-it-all, well good for you, guess what, i am, and i have the skill, experience and history to back it up. The law that relates to modified vehicles is quite clear and applies to us all. It doesn't matter your skills, your knowledge (or ignorance) it applies unconditionally.I'm not derailing your thread. Your thread is about a "Ford Focus V8" and as Ford never built this car, a suitable level of engineering, fabrication and yes, the necessity of an IVA test to validate that work is in fact central to this thread.
So, go ahead, build your car, get it suitably tested and registered and i'll be first in line to shake your hand, pat you on the back and tell you "epic job dude" !!! :-)
If you don't like it, write to your MP. The good news is, that we actually have a system to allow people like the OP to build one-off specials such as this car. Be thankful that is case, if people abuse the system, chances are it will simply be banned lock-stock.
Edited by Max_Torque on Saturday 9th November 14:04
By and large, I find your contributions to be helpful and knowledgable. This feels out of character, and unnecessary.
If people keep picking holes in what i write, which is demonstrably the objective truth, see quotes above, which i only posted because i was being caused a liar) and a disrupt-er then i will keep "ruining" this thread.
The OP is already taking a bit of a break from PH from calling me rude things, so if you don't like it, then tough.
It's really as simple as that. This is not some sycophantic forum where every just posts "yeah, sic bruv, you is well wicked init" and the like, and that;s why PH is a great forum.
This is discussion forum. If you don't want to talk about IVA, then don't cut massive holes in your unibody car post it on this forum, and pretend you can just cover it all up.
The OP has admitted they didn't understand the rules that apply, and has said they will IVA the car if they use it on the road, so that, should be that, if anyone else wants to stick their oar in, then all that's going to do is extend the "derailment".
So, you don't like me, well, i don't care. I haven't insulted you, i haven't suggested in any way this project is bad, badly executed, or in any way pointless, so go find some else to pick on.......
The OP is already taking a bit of a break from PH from calling me rude things, so if you don't like it, then tough.
It's really as simple as that. This is not some sycophantic forum where every just posts "yeah, sic bruv, you is well wicked init" and the like, and that;s why PH is a great forum.
This is discussion forum. If you don't want to talk about IVA, then don't cut massive holes in your unibody car post it on this forum, and pretend you can just cover it all up.
The OP has admitted they didn't understand the rules that apply, and has said they will IVA the car if they use it on the road, so that, should be that, if anyone else wants to stick their oar in, then all that's going to do is extend the "derailment".
So, you don't like me, well, i don't care. I haven't insulted you, i haven't suggested in any way this project is bad, badly executed, or in any way pointless, so go find some else to pick on.......
Well i'm sorry you feel that way.
I only spoke the truth, on a subject that is very important. We are not talking about minor stuff here, we are talking about your legal obligation, and one that is absolutely central to the ability of us "car modifiers" to keep doing the things we love.
The car is under threat, from all sides, like never before. Today we have certain freedoms to modify our cars, and do that in a radical way. That freedom is not universal, and if it is abused, then the chances are we will ALL loose that freedom. Ignoring the potential for being put in prison, or fined large sums of money, this is why it's so important we all (and i include myself in this as much as anybody) make sure we follow the rules.
You yourself admitted you did not fully understand that cutting the trans tunnel and bulkhead meant you were required to get your car IVA'd, and that should have been that, you even suggested in replies that you would not follow your legal obligations and would "hide" modifications. That, i'm afraid to say, is a very serious statement to make.
The silly thing, is that there is as far as i can tell from the way you have done the work and the good skill/quality with which you have done it, absolutely no reason this car should not easily pass an IVA. If you don't want to discuss it, fair enough, delete this thread, that's your choice, but the facts remain.
I wish you all the best with your project, i really do, if you choose not to accept that genuine praise and good will, fair enough, that is your choice.
I only spoke the truth, on a subject that is very important. We are not talking about minor stuff here, we are talking about your legal obligation, and one that is absolutely central to the ability of us "car modifiers" to keep doing the things we love.
The car is under threat, from all sides, like never before. Today we have certain freedoms to modify our cars, and do that in a radical way. That freedom is not universal, and if it is abused, then the chances are we will ALL loose that freedom. Ignoring the potential for being put in prison, or fined large sums of money, this is why it's so important we all (and i include myself in this as much as anybody) make sure we follow the rules.
You yourself admitted you did not fully understand that cutting the trans tunnel and bulkhead meant you were required to get your car IVA'd, and that should have been that, you even suggested in replies that you would not follow your legal obligations and would "hide" modifications. That, i'm afraid to say, is a very serious statement to make.
The silly thing, is that there is as far as i can tell from the way you have done the work and the good skill/quality with which you have done it, absolutely no reason this car should not easily pass an IVA. If you don't want to discuss it, fair enough, delete this thread, that's your choice, but the facts remain.
I wish you all the best with your project, i really do, if you choose not to accept that genuine praise and good will, fair enough, that is your choice.
Edited by anonymous-user on Sunday 10th November 17:51
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