Discussion
Max_Torque said:
Please understand that a Landrover 90 has a non-structural body mounted on a seperate ladder frame chassis. This makes it very different to your Focus, which has a Unibody design of structure, ie the body IS the structure. All parts of the chassis, even those that are just for beauty / shape carry loads. This means it has complex load paths,using thin sheets of metal, formed into complex shapes to provide stiffness and strength as necessary (and of course, softness and crushablity as well)
Changing the "tunnel" in a landrover to allow a v8 to be interested where a diesel previously resided, requires you to be able to use a socket set, and that's it. You unbolt the old tunnel, and bolt the V8 part in it's place. That part is a standard part, made by LR for the V8 defenders it certified and sold.
You, as a private individual are legally obliged (if you want to use the car in the road, and fair enough you haven't said you will be) to get your car IVA tested if you cut or modify the unibody of it in any significant way. "in any significant way" means you would need to be able to prove, using engineering fact (ie a qualified engineer report) that your modifications have or have not in any way changed the strength, stiffness or load paths of the vehicle structure. From the pictures you have already posted, it's clear that your cuts have already more than passed the point that your changed would be considered "significant".
To be clear, i'm not "down" in any way of people messing around in their garage building home made monsters out of left over cars, it's fun, and can result in amazing feats of "shed engineering". But it's important to realise our laws are very clear and concise on what actions you must take should you want to use such a vehicle on the road once you have carried out your mods
(PS be glad that thanks to the UKs long history of "shed engineering" by amateurs, our laws do actually have a valid route to allow vehicles like this to be used on the road. In many countries, it would simply be illegal!!)
I’m really struggling to understand what you’re trying to achieve here. I understand what is required if I need to make the car road legal, I’ve explained the pictures make it look worse than it is. In its current state I could get standard non rotting inner arches and weld them back in along with a flat boot floor and nobody would know any different. I take your point with the tunnel - not knowing about land rovers it didn’t seem that such a throwaway comment would be taken so seriously. Changing the "tunnel" in a landrover to allow a v8 to be interested where a diesel previously resided, requires you to be able to use a socket set, and that's it. You unbolt the old tunnel, and bolt the V8 part in it's place. That part is a standard part, made by LR for the V8 defenders it certified and sold.
You, as a private individual are legally obliged (if you want to use the car in the road, and fair enough you haven't said you will be) to get your car IVA tested if you cut or modify the unibody of it in any significant way. "in any significant way" means you would need to be able to prove, using engineering fact (ie a qualified engineer report) that your modifications have or have not in any way changed the strength, stiffness or load paths of the vehicle structure. From the pictures you have already posted, it's clear that your cuts have already more than passed the point that your changed would be considered "significant".
To be clear, i'm not "down" in any way of people messing around in their garage building home made monsters out of left over cars, it's fun, and can result in amazing feats of "shed engineering". But it's important to realise our laws are very clear and concise on what actions you must take should you want to use such a vehicle on the road once you have carried out your mods
(PS be glad that thanks to the UKs long history of "shed engineering" by amateurs, our laws do actually have a valid route to allow vehicles like this to be used on the road. In many countries, it would simply be illegal!!)
I hazard a guess that if the UK wasn’t so lenient with car modifications none of us would be as “into” cars as this forum seems to display, myself included. So we wouldn’t be having these pointless conversations over what I may or may not have to do when and or if this project works. We would be talking about how my custom built grandfather clock in the garage isn’t timed to a certain frequency and how it’s against the law to have it outside of defined parameters.
WTF is wrong with people?
Free engine, a V8 at that, trying to slap it in a cheap looking hatch that will be most amusing to drive.
The OP clearly understands he needs an IVA, and I’m looking forward to seeing more of what he’s done, and less sanctimonious knowitall.
Good on you OP, crack on.
Free engine, a V8 at that, trying to slap it in a cheap looking hatch that will be most amusing to drive.
The OP clearly understands he needs an IVA, and I’m looking forward to seeing more of what he’s done, and less sanctimonious knowitall.
Good on you OP, crack on.
Jaffman said:
I’m really struggling to understand what you’re trying to achieve here.
I'm trying to ensure you are fully aware of your legal obligations. If you build a car and drive it on the road, with significant mods (as you are) you cannot just MOT it, and keep the original registration. You are legally required to have the car IVA'd. You might not like it, but tough, that's the law. if you don't do this (and many "home builders" don't then you need to understand the potential consequences, namely your insurance will be invalid, you may be prosecuted for driving without MOT/TAX and insurance (all negated by failing to correctly register the vehicle as required by the law). Should you be involved in an accident, at best, you would be financially liable for all costs and compensations, and at worse be sent to prison for manslaughter. Is that clear enough for you?
Jaffman said:
I understand what is required if I need to make the car road legal, I’ve explained the pictures make it look worse than it is. In its current state I could get standard non rotting inner arches and weld them back in along with a flat boot floor and nobody would know any different.
You clearly don't understand, because you CANNOT just weld in a flat boot floor and remain legal. "nobody knowing any different" is not a legally robust defence. An engineers report (such as that carried out by the police/insurance company should your vehicle be involved in an accident......) would clearly spot the fact you have added non standard suspension, subframe and modified the unibody to accept those changes.Your picture:
clearly show a completely different damper/spring seat is required to attached the dampers for the new subframe (because the std focus is fwd, and uses short springs that sit between the lateral arms and the std subframe), therefore you cannot use "standard" inner arches, you will have to modify them to make the dampers fit. And it also shows the spring loads being applied to the chassis rails in a non standard position. In fact, just removing the spare wheel well (which is an integral part of the rear crash structure of a modern unibody) is enough to result in the need for an IVA. The subframe and diff also are significantly difference in terms of crush strength / stiffness to the original multilink suspension.
The Law might seem like a PITA, but it's actually there to protect you as an amateur builder as much as it protects the general public.....
Macron said:
The OP clearly understands he needs an IVA,
It's pretty clear that he doesn't. Phrases such as "nobody would know any difference" and "just weld in a flat floor" tell us that he doesn't have a realistic approach, an approach that he is legally obliged to take.Macron said:
and less sanctimonious knowitall.
Let me give you an example why it's important.You are walking on a pavement outside your house, a car clips a kerb when the driver is forced to swerve around a car that has failed to stop at a roundabout. As that car clips the kerb, and the rear suspension fails because it had been modified by a amateur home builder who did not to build the vehicle to the necessary standards and have them checked, as the law requires. The rear suspension collapses, the car looses control, mounts the pavement, hits you and your family, resulting in life changing injuries.
Luckily, this is a rare event, very rare, but it happens. And if it happened to you, and you found out your wife was now in a wheel chair for life because the owner/modifier of the car "short cut" the system and didn't IVA their car, then you'd want then to be appropriately prosecuted.
If that happened, and i sincerely hope it never does, i bet you wouldn't glibly shout "bloody know it all engineers who design cars for a living and make sure they are safe, bloody spoil sports"........
(BTW, standard cars undergo a raft of tests specifically to ensure the chassis is suitably robust over the lifetime of the vehicle. The reason there are so few true mechanical failures of modern passenger cars is precisely because they are engineered, by "know it all engineers" like me, to very high standards, and then explicitly tested to validate our knowledge. Kerb strike tests, pavé tests, pot hole impacts, rough road, not to mention actual full scale crash testing, all those test are in place to protect both the cars occupants and the general public. We all benefit from that.
Max_Torque said:
You clearly don't understand, because you CANNOT just weld in a flat boot floor and remain legal. "nobody knowing any different" is not a legally robust defence. An engineers report (such as that carried out by the police/insurance company should your vehicle be involved in an accident......) would clearly spot the fact you have added non standard suspension, subframe and modified the unibody to accept those changes.
Your picture:
clearly show a completely different damper/spring seat is required to attached the dampers for the new subframe (because the std focus is fwd, and uses short springs that sit between the lateral arms and the std subframe), therefore you cannot use "standard" inner arches, you will have to modify them to make the dampers fit. And it also shows the spring loads being applied to the chassis rails in a non standard position. In fact, just removing the spare wheel well (which is an integral part of the rear crash structure of a modern unibody) is enough to result in the need for an IVA. The subframe and diff also are significantly difference in terms of crush strength / stiffness to the original multilink suspension.
The Law might seem like a PITA, but it's actually there to protect you as an amateur builder as much as it protects the general public.....
Dude, it was clear when I first said if it needs to be road legal then I know what is required.Your picture:
clearly show a completely different damper/spring seat is required to attached the dampers for the new subframe (because the std focus is fwd, and uses short springs that sit between the lateral arms and the std subframe), therefore you cannot use "standard" inner arches, you will have to modify them to make the dampers fit. And it also shows the spring loads being applied to the chassis rails in a non standard position. In fact, just removing the spare wheel well (which is an integral part of the rear crash structure of a modern unibody) is enough to result in the need for an IVA. The subframe and diff also are significantly difference in terms of crush strength / stiffness to the original multilink suspension.
The Law might seem like a PITA, but it's actually there to protect you as an amateur builder as much as it protects the general public.....
I don’t understand why you continue to labour the same point.
I am well aware of unibody chassis and how they are built and why they are built and how they are made structurally sound. Not that it makes any difference because I’ve already cut the f
king thing apart before it fell apart. You can harp on about the law, make assumptions, call me out all you like. So far I have done nothing illegal, I’m literally someone tinkering in the garage being treated as if I’m about to go crowd surfing with my deadly focus the minute it’s ready.
I’ve not claimed ignorance on anything. I don’t know how many different ways I can say this but I am aware of what is required to do this.
And for the sake of clarity let me repeat:
I am in no way against "Home builds" or "Amateur builds". I have such a car myself. I love to see people putting "crazy" engines and powertrains into cars. I am never going to say "but it's just a focus, why bother" because all cars are just metal shells with engines. What you build should be up to an individuals imagination and particular preference, i will ALWAYS support these builds. The UKs world leading "shed engineering" is evidence of a long history of clever people doing weird and crazy things in sheds with cars.
BUT:
I will 100% call out anyone who fails to meet the necessary legal obligations in respect to any vehicle that is to be driven in public. (note, under uk law, you as the owner/driver are responsible for your driving and vehicle even on private ground if the general public have access). The law is clear and not difficult or expensive to follow. It protects everyone equally.
I am in no way against "Home builds" or "Amateur builds". I have such a car myself. I love to see people putting "crazy" engines and powertrains into cars. I am never going to say "but it's just a focus, why bother" because all cars are just metal shells with engines. What you build should be up to an individuals imagination and particular preference, i will ALWAYS support these builds. The UKs world leading "shed engineering" is evidence of a long history of clever people doing weird and crazy things in sheds with cars.
BUT:
I will 100% call out anyone who fails to meet the necessary legal obligations in respect to any vehicle that is to be driven in public. (note, under uk law, you as the owner/driver are responsible for your driving and vehicle even on private ground if the general public have access). The law is clear and not difficult or expensive to follow. It protects everyone equally.
Jaffman said:
I am well aware of unibody chassis and how they are built and why they are built and how they are made structurally sound. Not that it makes any difference because I’ve already cut the fking thing apart before it fell apart.
And your qualification or demonstrable competence in structural engineering is? king thing apart before it fell apart. Yes, i'm playing devils advocate, and you don't like that, but compared to standing up in front of an actual advocate accused of manslaughter, i'm an easy listener.......
(you perhaps should note, i have previously acted as expert witness for the prosecution in a case where an "illegally" modified vehicle failed, resulting in an accident, and luckily no serious injuries, but the insurance company still used my evidence to successfully negate an insurance payout and recover all costs from the defendant..... )
Max_Torque said:
Macron said:
The OP clearly understands he needs an IVA,
It's pretty clear that he doesn't. Phrases such as "nobody would know any difference" and "just weld in a flat floor" tell us that he doesn't have a realistic approach, an approach that he is legally obliged to take.Macron said:
and less sanctimonious knowitall.
Let me give you an example why it's important.You are walking on a pavement outside your house, a car clips a kerb when the driver is forced to swerve around a car that has failed to stop at a roundabout. As that car clips the kerb, and the rear suspension fails because it had been modified by a amateur home builder who did not to build the vehicle to the necessary standards and have them checked, as the law requires. The rear suspension collapses, the car looses control, mounts the pavement, hits you and your family, resulting in life changing injuries.
Luckily, this is a rare event, very rare, but it happens. And if it happened to you, and you found out your wife was now in a wheel chair for life because the owner/modifier of the car "short cut" the system and didn't IVA their car, then you'd want then to be appropriately prosecuted.
If that happened, and i sincerely hope it never does, i bet you wouldn't glibly shout "bloody know it all engineers who design cars for a living and make sure they are safe, bloody spoil sports"........
(BTW, standard cars undergo a raft of tests specifically to ensure the chassis is suitably robust over the lifetime of the vehicle. The reason there are so few true mechanical failures of modern passenger cars is precisely because they are engineered, by "know it all engineers" like me, to very high standards, and then explicitly tested to validate our knowledge. Kerb strike tests, pavé tests, pot hole impacts, rough road, not to mention actual full scale crash testing, all those test are in place to protect both the cars occupants and the general public. We all benefit from that.
I’m not some chimp in my back garage welding stuff together in the hopes that it works. I’m actually carefully considering everything I’m doing. But you seem to know better so please do continue to derail this thread until you’re happy that I’m saying the right things
Max_Torque said:
Jaffman said:
I am well aware of unibody chassis and how they are built and why they are built and how they are made structurally sound. Not that it makes any difference because I’ve already cut the fking thing apart before it fell apart.
And your qualification or demonstrable competence in structural engineering is? king thing apart before it fell apart. Yes, i'm playing devils advocate, and you don't like that, but compared to standing up in front of an actual advocate accused of manslaughter, i'm an easy listener.......
(you perhaps should note, i have previously acted as expert witness for the prosecution in a case where an "illegally" modified vehicle failed, resulting in an accident, and luckily no serious injuries, but the insurance company still used my evidence to successfully negate an insurance payout and recover all costs from the defendant..... )
I lied I am indeed a chimp with no engineering experience at all living in a cage being worked like a slave to my master puppeteers “weld monkey! Weld!” Day in day out that’s all I get!
But enough! I’m done with this project!
Thanks for releasing me from these chains!
Max_Torque said:
Truth hurts eh........
Crippling! Like that time me and you sat down for a beer and you got to know me and actually realised I was actually a human being with an engineering background that respected my own life as well as my family’s and others around me, and I learned that you were not a self important sanctimonious know it all, and I told you just once that I was aware of what was required to get this car to be safe and legal should it get to that point.
Ahh s
t.. that didn’t actually happen did it?! b
ks Jaffman said:
All of this assumes a complete disrespect for my own life too. Chances of that happening are slim to none, chances of something happening to the car and it killing me and me alone are a lot higher. Sanctimonious - yes to assume that I hold my own life in disregard just to justify something I’m doing in my spare time.
The law is to protect you as much as anyone elseThe probability of any individual accident is indeed small, but with 20 million cars being driven on our roads, people are killed and seriously injured every single day.
Jaffman said:
I’m not some chimp in my back garage welding stuff together in the hopes that it works. I’m actually carefully considering everything I’m doing. But you seem to know better so please do continue to derail this thread until you’re happy that I’m saying the right things
I have never called you a chimp. Plenty of people weld stuff together in our sheds and garages. However, just because you or i think we know what we are doing, does not mean we do, which is why we have a system such as the IVA test, that acts as a final, independent arbiter to our work. My car has a heavily modified unibody. I'm a automotive engineer with 25 years of direct experience in the design and development of passenger cars. I have done FEA and ADAMS simulations and stress calculations to back up my modifications, and yet, yes, my car was required to be IVA'd by the independent body of our department of transport. I had to provide an second independent engineers report on my car despite my specific knowledge and skill. This is how it should be. I just like you, am not above the law.I'm not derailing your thread. Your thread is about a "Ford Focus V8" and as Ford never built this car, a suitable level of engineering, fabrication and yes, the necessity of an IVA test to validate that work is in fact central to this thread.
So, go ahead, build your car, get it suitably tested and registered and i'll be first in line to shake your hand, pat you on the back and tell you "epic job dude" !!! :-)
Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 5th November 22:20
Monkeylegend said:
Way to ruin an interesting thread, well done guys.
Sorry, normally there’s an enjoyable conversation about the challenges faced and how I have or intend to overcome them, you get the odd person telling me I’m wasting my time and a few people wish they could do it.In this case we’ve just focused (lol) on something that might not happen even though I’ve explained that it is a hurdle capable of being overcome.
This place is rather difficult to update anyway amongst the picture upload being a pain and all my content being video links that I can’t link to so it probably won’t be updated that often.
Saves the preaching then too I suppose
Jaffman said:
Monkeylegend said:
Way to ruin an interesting thread, well done guys.
Sorry, normally there’s an enjoyable conversation about the challenges faced and how I have or intend to overcome them, you get the odd person telling me I’m wasting my time and a few people wish they could do it.In this case we’ve just focused (lol) on something that might not happen even though I’ve explained that it is a hurdle capable of being overcome.
This place is rather difficult to update anyway amongst the picture upload being a pain and all my content being video links that I can’t link to so it probably won’t be updated that often.
Saves the preaching then too I suppose
I am on my fourth car build from a bare bones chassis so have gone throughthe SVA procedure and am building to the IVA code and suggest that you carry on exactly as you have done. Do all the modifications you want to and then take it for an IVA test where the inspecting engineer will assess the complete suitability and safety of the car to be used on the road.
Get a copy of the latest IVA manual and give it a read. Then read it again.You will see that its actually not that onerous to comply. Using a modern donor such as the Focus gets you around a whole host of problems caused by the usual amateur build/ modification process such as minor trim projections, seat belt heights, seat belt mounting points etc.
As far as I can see there is no requirement for each IVA application to be supported by an engineeers report. If the examiner has an issue he may fail the car and request one but cross that bridge when you come to it. If Ed China can get a sofa through an SVA and other people get lookalike garden sheds through the IVA, I'm sure that a conversion such as yours should have a good chance.
As regards the Q plate, again read the guide carefully, make sure you use as many "points carrying parts" as you can, ie use parts such as the steering arms ( you dont even need the full rack), wheel carriers, brakes etc from the Focus donor and you may get enough points to either keep the existing identity or get an age related plate.
Good Luck.
Cheers,
Tony
Get a copy of the latest IVA manual and give it a read. Then read it again.You will see that its actually not that onerous to comply. Using a modern donor such as the Focus gets you around a whole host of problems caused by the usual amateur build/ modification process such as minor trim projections, seat belt heights, seat belt mounting points etc.
As far as I can see there is no requirement for each IVA application to be supported by an engineeers report. If the examiner has an issue he may fail the car and request one but cross that bridge when you come to it. If Ed China can get a sofa through an SVA and other people get lookalike garden sheds through the IVA, I'm sure that a conversion such as yours should have a good chance.
As regards the Q plate, again read the guide carefully, make sure you use as many "points carrying parts" as you can, ie use parts such as the steering arms ( you dont even need the full rack), wheel carriers, brakes etc from the Focus donor and you may get enough points to either keep the existing identity or get an age related plate.
Good Luck.
Cheers,
Tony
Tony427 said:
As regards the Q plate, again read the guide carefully, make sure you use as many "points carrying parts" as you can, ie use parts such as the steering arms ( you dont even need the full rack), wheel carriers, brakes etc from the Focus donor and you may get enough points to either keep the existing identity or get an age related plate.
I think probably too many changes to keep the plate...but it doesn't matter anyway, IMO a Q plate doesn't have the stigma it once had. Especially with something this modified! The only downside to it is that with a Q it's no longer going to appear quite the sleeper it would otherwise be!
My only criticism of the build is a minor one is that it might have been better to leave suspension and brakes alone until afterwards which would keep some more points and maybe to keep an age related plate. Unlikely still but it's up to the DVLA, the only thing you can do is let the DVLA know what you've done, ie which bits are original and which are not and leave it up to them. If it's a Q, it's a Q.
It's still be <mcn>awesome</mcn>
Tony427 said:
Get a copy of the latest IVA manual and give it a read. Then read it again.You will see that its actually not that onerous to comply. Using a modern donor such as the Focus gets you around a whole host of problems caused by the usual amateur build/ modification process such as minor trim projections, seat belt heights, seat belt mounting points etc.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/iva-manual-for-vehicle-category-m1It's mostly fairly straightforwards and written to help people. As Tony says, the goal is actually to make things safe and most are pretty reasonable. Making a "classic" replica like mine (and IIRC Tony427 has had at least one 1UZ powered Cobra) is *way* harder than what you're doing and plenty of people have got those through IVA!
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