Panic buying a pandemic Ferrari
Discussion
I'm gutted. I own a 2014 Boxster but I was really enjoying the travails of Pepe. In fact there's an old lady I do some volunteering for, who has a 1994 Pug 205 (sadly not GTi!) sitting in her driveway not getting any use. Due to a bad leg injury she doesn't think she will ever drive again. She says it runs fine (last time she started it 6 months ago) and I can have it if I want it but it does look like a lot of work to sort. The red paint is completely faded and the seats are not in a good state. She uses the car to keep her stash of Tena Lady in!
Anyway I hope whatever comes next ends up being a fabulous project - but not too much of a project if you see what I mean...
Anyway I hope whatever comes next ends up being a fabulous project - but not too much of a project if you see what I mean...
jackpe said:
Pah!! Rubbish. That German stuff is not so much better than the Italian cars.. my 964 was in constant need of work!
Hmmm, let’s be brutally honest, that 964 of yours was a leggy, Cat D ? C4, that most likely went through a period of deferred maintenance and servicing (as many did when they were cheap) and you no doubt got to pick up the pieces ...The 964 fell from favour and was cheap for a reason : They were excellent daily drivers, and therefore clocked up the sort of mileages that give most Ferrari owners sleepless nights.
However, once they reached a certain age/mileage, they all too often fell into the wrong hands, and weren’t given the ongoing maintenance they required. End result ? Lots of cheap cars that needed large amounts of money spent on them to make them reliable and oil tight again.
Let’s not forget, back in 89-90 they were a largely hand built premium sports car that cost what ? £50K ? The running costs remained commensurate with the price they cost new ...
Go for a sensible miles Gen 1 Cayman S and have it borescoped, fit a low temperature thermostat, and if you’re really fearful, get the recommended modified IMS bearing fitted. The resulting engine should be as future-proofed as it can be.
If in doubt, get in touch with the ever-helpful crowd at Hartech, and they’ll tell you all you need to know (as will Phil R)
JPvanRossem said:
LunarOne said:
JPvanRossem said:
You want to buy my 380SL?
I might - been looking for a nice 80s Merc SL!
Edited by LunarOne on Tuesday 15th September 23:41
Slippydiff said:
Hmmm, let’s be brutally honest, that 964 of yours was a leggy, Cat D ? C4, that most likely went through a period of deferred maintenance and servicing (as many did when they were cheap) and you no doubt got to pick up the pieces ...
The 964 fell from favour and was cheap for a reason : They were excellent daily drivers, and therefore clocked up the sort of mileages that give most Ferrari owners sleepless nights.
However, once they reached a certain age/mileage, they all too often fell into the wrong hands, and weren’t given the ongoing maintenance they required. End result ? Lots of cheap cars that needed large amounts of money spent on them to make them reliable and oil tight again.
Let’s not forget, back in 89-90 they were a largely hand built premium sports car that cost what ? £50K ? The running costs remained commensurate with the price they cost new ...
Go for a sensible miles Gen 1 Cayman S and have it borescoped, fit a low temperature thermostat, and if you’re really fearful, get the recommended modified IMS bearing fitted. The resulting engine should be as future-proofed as it can be.
If in doubt, get in touch with the ever-helpful crowd at Hartech, and they’ll tell you all you need to know (as will Phil R)
My 964 like 90% of them needed an engine rebuild at 100k miles.. that has nothing to do with differed maintenance. It was just poor design and parts quality.. the original head studs don’t last in those engines. Look I accept that generally the German stuff was better built With better quality parts, especially in the 80s and 90s but really I do think the difference is often overblown. Yes Italian cars had real rust issues when they were using Russian steel in the 70s and 80s but then nobody seems to give Merc a hard time because it’s cars in the 2000s would treat to rust within the first 3 years.. The 964 fell from favour and was cheap for a reason : They were excellent daily drivers, and therefore clocked up the sort of mileages that give most Ferrari owners sleepless nights.
However, once they reached a certain age/mileage, they all too often fell into the wrong hands, and weren’t given the ongoing maintenance they required. End result ? Lots of cheap cars that needed large amounts of money spent on them to make them reliable and oil tight again.
Let’s not forget, back in 89-90 they were a largely hand built premium sports car that cost what ? £50K ? The running costs remained commensurate with the price they cost new ...
Go for a sensible miles Gen 1 Cayman S and have it borescoped, fit a low temperature thermostat, and if you’re really fearful, get the recommended modified IMS bearing fitted. The resulting engine should be as future-proofed as it can be.
If in doubt, get in touch with the ever-helpful crowd at Hartech, and they’ll tell you all you need to know (as will Phil R)
I do think the GTA will be a pain in the back side though. It’s seem lots of bits start to fail at around 80k miles. Still I’m aiming to get a good one, so hoping it won’t be too much trouble for a while.. that may not help content but I have enough to do with the Ferrari and Sprite.
I have commented but I hope my comment here also counts - GTA all day long!
You don't need that ratty Elise. That's a young man's car. My back just cries when I look at it.
You have a Ferrari, you don't need Pork (I say that as an owner)
That Alfa engine feels like it runs on double-cream.
ETA Not a GTA, but I had a 156 V6 and it was UTTERLY reliable from 30k to 110k miles when I got rid. Started at -14 degrees. Easily took 4 people, 2 kayaks and luggage on a holiday to Cornwall from Essex, averaged 32mpg over like 1000 miles. Doors felt solid, never leaked, it was a pleasure to own. I wouldn't be scared of an Alfa of that vintage.
You don't need that ratty Elise. That's a young man's car. My back just cries when I look at it.
You have a Ferrari, you don't need Pork (I say that as an owner)
That Alfa engine feels like it runs on double-cream.
ETA Not a GTA, but I had a 156 V6 and it was UTTERLY reliable from 30k to 110k miles when I got rid. Started at -14 degrees. Easily took 4 people, 2 kayaks and luggage on a holiday to Cornwall from Essex, averaged 32mpg over like 1000 miles. Doors felt solid, never leaked, it was a pleasure to own. I wouldn't be scared of an Alfa of that vintage.
Edited by OpulentBob on Wednesday 16th September 15:05
jackpe said:
My 964 like 90% of them needed an engine rebuild at 100k miles.. that has nothing to do with differed maintenance. It was just poor design and parts quality.. the original head studs don’t last in those engines. Look I accept that generally the German stuff was better built With better quality parts, especially in the 80s and 90s but really I do think the difference is often overblown. Yes Italian cars had real rust issues when they were using Russian steel in the 70s and 80s but then nobody seems to give Merc a hard time because it’s cars in the 2000s would treat to rust within the first 3 years..
I do think the GTA will be a pain in the back side though. It’s seem lots of bits start to fail at around 80k miles. Still I’m aiming to get a good one, so hoping it won’t be too much trouble for a while.. that may not help content but I have enough to do with the Ferrari and Sprite.
Our definitions of deferred maintenance may possibly differ Jack ... I do think the GTA will be a pain in the back side though. It’s seem lots of bits start to fail at around 80k miles. Still I’m aiming to get a good one, so hoping it won’t be too much trouble for a while.. that may not help content but I have enough to do with the Ferrari and Sprite.
I borrowed a mate's 147 GTA for a weekend, despite it being a tired example and the dash being lit up like a Christmas tree (CEL etc) it was a fun car.
Have you seen Davide Ceroni's video on modding a GTA ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rt8nYK-gMNw
With regards to the awful ride of the GTA, surely those really old tyres are not helping at all - they must be absolutely rock solid?
Aside from the fact they are dangerously out of date, some newer rubber would definitely reduce a small amount of the initial hit over bumps - get them changed ASAP!!
Aside from the fact they are dangerously out of date, some newer rubber would definitely reduce a small amount of the initial hit over bumps - get them changed ASAP!!
Those springs are bound up - they're too short so winding them up further to increase the ride height just binds them further. Letting them down just drops the car to the ground.
Springs are relatively cheap - if the seats can be wound down enough, try some longer ones and ditch the progressive element. They only work on Caterhams at the front because of the horrendous angles involved.
Tyres are shot too, as everyone else is saying although as they're such low profiles, even newer ones won't give you the ride quality you want. I'm convinced you need new springs.
Springs are relatively cheap - if the seats can be wound down enough, try some longer ones and ditch the progressive element. They only work on Caterhams at the front because of the horrendous angles involved.
Tyres are shot too, as everyone else is saying although as they're such low profiles, even newer ones won't give you the ride quality you want. I'm convinced you need new springs.
The springs are not coil bound, they look completely normal for a progressive rate spring. If you want to work out the coil bound length just measure the gap between all the coils and add that up, that gives you how much you would need to compress the spring to make it coil bound.
Adding preload will raise the ride height until you have enough preload added to take the damper to its full droop length, only once you have added that much preload do you actually start to compress the spring to start removing the available travel in the spring when the car is on the ground.
A very easy way to check that is just jack the car up, if the wheel moves into droop, you haven't reached the point where the spring is compressed enough to start removing it's available travel due to preload.
When you run the car too low with less height on the spring platform, it's more likely you are running on the bump stops too soon, which gives a poor ride quality and unstable handling.
The usual reason car handling is poor on aftermarket setups is the damper valving doesn't match the spring rate used. If the springs are softer than the damper valving is designed for, the suspension jacks down onto the bump stops. So after a bit of running you find the thing has no compression travel left. This is often worse in winter as the damper oil is more viscous so you get more jacking effect.
An under damped valving compared to spring rate gives you the opposite issue, where the spring isn't being controlled properly, so you get a floaty feel with poor transition, especially in roll control.
A practical way to check for damper jacking and too low ride height issues is to put a tie wrap on the damper shaft and see if that gets buried into the bump stop. You can also fit a go pro camera to the wing looking at the tyre and see if the wheel jacks itself into the arch as you drive down the road. When you come to rest the car will rise back up as the spring overcomes the damper valving when it's no longer receiving inputs.
Quite often people diagnose this incorrectly, they think the springs are too stiff when they are actually too soft and the car is either jacking down onto the bump stops or its hitting them because of a lack of spring support. It's very important to match the springs to the dampers correctly, which is why buying a good damper/spring package as a set is the best option, unless you know what you are doing and have the ability to sort this properly.
It's pretty basic stuff, most people simply don't measure things properly or diagnose correctly, so get their nickers in a twist.
Adding preload will raise the ride height until you have enough preload added to take the damper to its full droop length, only once you have added that much preload do you actually start to compress the spring to start removing the available travel in the spring when the car is on the ground.
A very easy way to check that is just jack the car up, if the wheel moves into droop, you haven't reached the point where the spring is compressed enough to start removing it's available travel due to preload.
When you run the car too low with less height on the spring platform, it's more likely you are running on the bump stops too soon, which gives a poor ride quality and unstable handling.
The usual reason car handling is poor on aftermarket setups is the damper valving doesn't match the spring rate used. If the springs are softer than the damper valving is designed for, the suspension jacks down onto the bump stops. So after a bit of running you find the thing has no compression travel left. This is often worse in winter as the damper oil is more viscous so you get more jacking effect.
An under damped valving compared to spring rate gives you the opposite issue, where the spring isn't being controlled properly, so you get a floaty feel with poor transition, especially in roll control.
A practical way to check for damper jacking and too low ride height issues is to put a tie wrap on the damper shaft and see if that gets buried into the bump stop. You can also fit a go pro camera to the wing looking at the tyre and see if the wheel jacks itself into the arch as you drive down the road. When you come to rest the car will rise back up as the spring overcomes the damper valving when it's no longer receiving inputs.
Quite often people diagnose this incorrectly, they think the springs are too stiff when they are actually too soft and the car is either jacking down onto the bump stops or its hitting them because of a lack of spring support. It's very important to match the springs to the dampers correctly, which is why buying a good damper/spring package as a set is the best option, unless you know what you are doing and have the ability to sort this properly.
It's pretty basic stuff, most people simply don't measure things properly or diagnose correctly, so get their nickers in a twist.
All makes sense thank you. It is tempting to think that because the spring is compressed with lots of preload it stiffens up but as you say on reflection that can’t be right as there is drool if I lift the car and certai LT it is not cool bound as such. I will check the other issue you
Mention such as spring being too soft with a go pro on the side but I’m pretty sure that’s not the issue. The ride is stiff from the first few yards. I have put the rear roll bar on the softer setting and that has helped somewhat, Have ordered new tires (made sure I got ones with the lower side wall stiffness and not the XL ones most sites automatically offer) and am getting spacers for the wheels which might also improve things a tad by increasing leverage on the suspension arms.
Mention such as spring being too soft with a go pro on the side but I’m pretty sure that’s not the issue. The ride is stiff from the first few yards. I have put the rear roll bar on the softer setting and that has helped somewhat, Have ordered new tires (made sure I got ones with the lower side wall stiffness and not the XL ones most sites automatically offer) and am getting spacers for the wheels which might also improve things a tad by increasing leverage on the suspension arms.
Hello all!!
Well you may have seen the last update video from 3 months ago.. if not you’ll be relieved to hear it is still somewhat broken. And engine will have to come out soon.
In the meantime I had started another thread asking for anyone who has classic cars with a comprehensive financial history and to get in touch. I’ve recently done a couple adding up the lifetime cost of ownership on a Ferrari 550 (£110k if I remember correctly) and 360. Basically detailing all the repair and Maintenance costs. Am really keen to do the same on any porsche which is 10+ years sold and has a solid financial history. Also looking to do the same on a Honda NSX and any other interesting car really. Obviously it has to have a daily complete spending history! The original thread was deleted by a mod.. apparently I’m not allowed to promote my channel. Perhaps it’s because I put a link to one of the vids. In any case hopefully this will survive culling.
So get in touch if you have any leads!!
Well you may have seen the last update video from 3 months ago.. if not you’ll be relieved to hear it is still somewhat broken. And engine will have to come out soon.
In the meantime I had started another thread asking for anyone who has classic cars with a comprehensive financial history and to get in touch. I’ve recently done a couple adding up the lifetime cost of ownership on a Ferrari 550 (£110k if I remember correctly) and 360. Basically detailing all the repair and Maintenance costs. Am really keen to do the same on any porsche which is 10+ years sold and has a solid financial history. Also looking to do the same on a Honda NSX and any other interesting car really. Obviously it has to have a daily complete spending history! The original thread was deleted by a mod.. apparently I’m not allowed to promote my channel. Perhaps it’s because I put a link to one of the vids. In any case hopefully this will survive culling.
So get in touch if you have any leads!!
jackpe said:
Hello all!!
Well you may have seen the last update video from 3 months ago.. if not you’ll be relieved to hear it is still somewhat broken. And engine will have to come out soon.
In the meantime I had started another thread asking for anyone who has classic cars with a comprehensive financial history and to get in touch. I’ve recently done a couple adding up the lifetime cost of ownership on a Ferrari 550 (£110k if I remember correctly) and 360. Basically detailing all the repair and Maintenance costs. Am really keen to do the same on any porsche which is 10+ years sold and has a solid financial history. Also looking to do the same on a Honda NSX and any other interesting car really. Obviously it has to have a daily complete spending history! The original thread was deleted by a mod.. apparently I’m not allowed to promote my channel. Perhaps it’s because I put a link to one of the vids. In any case hopefully this will survive culling.
So get in touch if you have any leads!!
Hi JackWell you may have seen the last update video from 3 months ago.. if not you’ll be relieved to hear it is still somewhat broken. And engine will have to come out soon.
In the meantime I had started another thread asking for anyone who has classic cars with a comprehensive financial history and to get in touch. I’ve recently done a couple adding up the lifetime cost of ownership on a Ferrari 550 (£110k if I remember correctly) and 360. Basically detailing all the repair and Maintenance costs. Am really keen to do the same on any porsche which is 10+ years sold and has a solid financial history. Also looking to do the same on a Honda NSX and any other interesting car really. Obviously it has to have a daily complete spending history! The original thread was deleted by a mod.. apparently I’m not allowed to promote my channel. Perhaps it’s because I put a link to one of the vids. In any case hopefully this will survive culling.
So get in touch if you have any leads!!
I’ve had my 996 for 13yrs, have a pretty comprehensive Excel list of costings up until it was SORN’d last summer.
What exactly are you looking for?
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