A sort of car comparison like they do in magazines
Discussion
Having come to the conclusion that the cars I really fancy to replace the outgoing TVR & Merc are probably out of financial reach (E30M3, Integrale, 911SC, BMW 2002tii, Fulvia) I've been idly trawling the various ads on this wet day and thought I'd post a couple of random options on here.
I've had a couple of the above before and should never have sold.
LotusExcel (I've had one before) v Morgan 4/4 (cheaper CVH engines ones) v Alfa Spider Veloce (the RWD car not the later FWD) v Fiat 124 Sport. All of which can be had for £15K or less.
Actually the Fulvia still fits in this category.
4 very different vehicles, one a 4 seater FH, the others convertible, some 2+2. Some more practical than others.
Any thoughts/ comments on these particular options to while away your time on a wet evening away from the hoards heading to the pub?
I've had a couple of the above before and should never have sold.
LotusExcel (I've had one before) v Morgan 4/4 (cheaper CVH engines ones) v Alfa Spider Veloce (the RWD car not the later FWD) v Fiat 124 Sport. All of which can be had for £15K or less.
Actually the Fulvia still fits in this category.
4 very different vehicles, one a 4 seater FH, the others convertible, some 2+2. Some more practical than others.
Any thoughts/ comments on these particular options to while away your time on a wet evening away from the hoards heading to the pub?
I replaced my TVR with a Fulvia Coupe a few years back.
Initially I missed the grunt - but then began to realise what beautifully engineered and balanced cars the Fulvia are. Yes there is an art to keeping things flowing with just on 100 BHP but that’s part of the charm.
£12K will get you a good one, engines are fairly unburstable but usual cautions re body shell/sills/front subframe..
Initially I missed the grunt - but then began to realise what beautifully engineered and balanced cars the Fulvia are. Yes there is an art to keeping things flowing with just on 100 BHP but that’s part of the charm.
£12K will get you a good one, engines are fairly unburstable but usual cautions re body shell/sills/front subframe..
moffspeed said:
I replaced my TVR with a Fulvia Coupe a few years back.
Initially I missed the grunt - but then began to realise what beautifully engineered and balanced cars the Fulvia are. Yes there is an art to keeping things flowing with just on 100 BHP but that’s part of the charm.
£12K will get you a good one, engines are fairly unburstable but usual cautions re body shell/sills/front subframe..
Yes had one for 6 months back in the 1980'sInitially I missed the grunt - but then began to realise what beautifully engineered and balanced cars the Fulvia are. Yes there is an art to keeping things flowing with just on 100 BHP but that’s part of the charm.
£12K will get you a good one, engines are fairly unburstable but usual cautions re body shell/sills/front subframe..
Paid £180 for it, thrashed it, burnt out avalve, head off, new valve, thrashed it some more and sold it for £250 after a coat of plant enamel red (with runs) over the dull faded blue. Was a lovely little machine.
I have only owned the Alfa (series2, so twin del-orto).
Again, no big grunt 2.0 +-120bhp. Very simple to get a nice induction sound using kw filter in the original air box.. just drill out the centre tube holes to widen).
Michellin xas165 r14 tyres, low grip levels, very nicely balanced, a pleasure to drive..handles delightfully.
Paid £7.5k for a usable example in 2018...needed sills/jack points doing..£3k, plus some ball joints/bits and pieces/tune up...£1.5k
So, £12k overall.
Again, no big grunt 2.0 +-120bhp. Very simple to get a nice induction sound using kw filter in the original air box.. just drill out the centre tube holes to widen).
Michellin xas165 r14 tyres, low grip levels, very nicely balanced, a pleasure to drive..handles delightfully.
Paid £7.5k for a usable example in 2018...needed sills/jack points doing..£3k, plus some ball joints/bits and pieces/tune up...£1.5k
So, £12k overall.
1.6 Lampredi engines rev much better than the 2.0, same with 1750 v 2000 busso nord engines.
I have a 1.6 Prisma...not exactly desirable as it's a four door saloon..but the little lampredi loves and needs a good thrashing. The 2000 busso nord doesn't give much more over 5000 revs, and feels laboured over 6000rpm.
I know the fulvia has the v4, but thought I would mention the lampredi in case a Beta Spyder or Coupe showed up...they can be had for well under £10k...and sometimes nice ones crop up! The 124 Spider has a different cylinder head to the Lancias, so I can't comment on them.
I have a 1.6 Prisma...not exactly desirable as it's a four door saloon..but the little lampredi loves and needs a good thrashing. The 2000 busso nord doesn't give much more over 5000 revs, and feels laboured over 6000rpm.
I know the fulvia has the v4, but thought I would mention the lampredi in case a Beta Spyder or Coupe showed up...they can be had for well under £10k...and sometimes nice ones crop up! The 124 Spider has a different cylinder head to the Lancias, so I can't comment on them.
Edited by courty on Monday 6th July 11:37
Edited by courty on Monday 6th July 11:38
Some love for the Italian vehicles then.
I'm wondering about the Morgan 4/4, back about 40+ years ago I was considering one as a replacement for the Midgets and a B I drove at the time.
Can't see it being much of a regular vehicle though. The others are probably more practical.
I was considering a TVR M series but for some reason after 4 TVR I'm fancying a change of marque.
I'm wondering about the Morgan 4/4, back about 40+ years ago I was considering one as a replacement for the Midgets and a B I drove at the time.
Can't see it being much of a regular vehicle though. The others are probably more practical.
I was considering a TVR M series but for some reason after 4 TVR I'm fancying a change of marque.
I sold my 2.0 S2 Spider Veloce last year - very pretty and characterful but OMG, the scuttle shake!!
And despite the fancy location system for the back axle you always felt it was moving about, even with all new bushes.
I never really gelled with it - I had an Elan Plus 2 at the same time which was, for me, a much nicer car though obvioulsy lacking the wind-in-the-hair option
I do like the Fulvia - the engines are lovely and despite the power unit sitting well forward of the front axle line they handle really sweetly.
And despite the fancy location system for the back axle you always felt it was moving about, even with all new bushes.
I never really gelled with it - I had an Elan Plus 2 at the same time which was, for me, a much nicer car though obvioulsy lacking the wind-in-the-hair option
I do like the Fulvia - the engines are lovely and despite the power unit sitting well forward of the front axle line they handle really sweetly.
I had a two litre Ala Spider, a 1977 car, for many years, and always enjoyed driving it. Just last week, I bought a 1973 Fiat 124 Sport Coupe, one of the CC series cars with an 1800 (in fact 1756) cc engine, and so far I am very pleased with that. An AC series car from 1969 is for sale on eBay at present.
You might wish to consider also a Lancia Beta Coupe or Spider, which can be very good cars. I have a 1978 Beta 1600 Coupe (not for sale).
You might wish to consider also a Lancia Beta Coupe or Spider, which can be very good cars. I have a 1978 Beta 1600 Coupe (not for sale).
Some pundits say that the AC (first series) Fiat 124 Sporty Coupe is the best handling of the three variants of that car. The not evidently rusty one on sale on eBay at present is one of those. My concern about that one is that it has not seen an MOT tester since 2005, and the seller CBA to take decent photos of the car or to give it a decent write up.
My one is a CC, the third series, and only a bit rusty. It's the heaviest variant, but has the biggest engine. The purists say that Fiat ruined the handling on the BC and CC cars after the nimble purity of the pretty and lightweight 1400 engined AC.
My one is a CC, the third series, and only a bit rusty. It's the heaviest variant, but has the biggest engine. The purists say that Fiat ruined the handling on the BC and CC cars after the nimble purity of the pretty and lightweight 1400 engined AC.
Little love on here for the Morgan, maybe rightly so. It's a car I fancied 40+ years ago and maybe that's where it belongs. Too similar to my 1991 Caterham probably too.
A lot of love for the Italian options, their styling is definitely well above the UK cars of similar age, Rust a problem but mechanically too a step up. I need to decide whether it should be another Fulvia Coupe or a DHC Fiat or Alfa. I've always had convertibles but do like the Fulvia even if it is FWD.
I could do with reading up some more on these vehicles then, after a few weeks to sort out visiting family, a holiday and getting my cash back together (currently dropped into some FTSE companies and not going well this week) I should get out on a road trip to try a few out. Living west coast Scotland is all very well but it's a long way from where nearly every car for sale is.
If anyone can recommend some reading on these three please.
Excel: well I have had one of these before, briefly about 6 year ago, not a good example it had been leaking into the cabin (a common problem) for a long time, stunk of damp inside along with peeling interior. But driving wise it was a great car, lacked the torque of the TVRs I'd been used to but a superb gearchange and road manners. I know of one coming up for sale shortly, has been given the works,
Final thought: the three Italian cars would be free of VED saving me near on £300/year which I could spend on keeping them in top condition rather than sticking it in the governments kitty to waste.
A lot of love for the Italian options, their styling is definitely well above the UK cars of similar age, Rust a problem but mechanically too a step up. I need to decide whether it should be another Fulvia Coupe or a DHC Fiat or Alfa. I've always had convertibles but do like the Fulvia even if it is FWD.
I could do with reading up some more on these vehicles then, after a few weeks to sort out visiting family, a holiday and getting my cash back together (currently dropped into some FTSE companies and not going well this week) I should get out on a road trip to try a few out. Living west coast Scotland is all very well but it's a long way from where nearly every car for sale is.
If anyone can recommend some reading on these three please.
Excel: well I have had one of these before, briefly about 6 year ago, not a good example it had been leaking into the cabin (a common problem) for a long time, stunk of damp inside along with peeling interior. But driving wise it was a great car, lacked the torque of the TVRs I'd been used to but a superb gearchange and road manners. I know of one coming up for sale shortly, has been given the works,
Final thought: the three Italian cars would be free of VED saving me near on £300/year which I could spend on keeping them in top condition rather than sticking it in the governments kitty to waste.
I am a big fan of the Excel, but also of Alfas, Lancias, and Fiats.
Test drives?
Hopefully my Fiat 124 and Lancia Beta will be in good running order by, say, early September, if not before. The Fiat I have had a week and it is on the road but it needs a good checking over, tune up, and new tyres. The Lancia needs a new clutch and a very light recommission after two years in a dry barn. I am having some difficulties at present getting people to work on the cars, but I hope to see progress soon. The Fiat is going to a specialist on 10 August. The Lancia ... dunno - watch this space.
If you find yourself near South Oxfordshire you can come and have a go in the cars, or if they are not ready yet you can poke and prod at them and sit in them and get an idea of what they are like.
My late Eclat will not turn a wheel again for at least a year, if not far longer. It last drove in early 2018. It is a bigger project. It is like an early Excel, engine and carbs and wise, but is a slightly more raw experience because of its rear suspension and drivetrain set up, and its less good brakes. The Excel got the robust Toyota transmission and drivetrain and brakes that make pub bores say that it is a Supra in drag (this is not true) The Eclat looks more 70s than an Excel, (although my one is from 1982).
A friend has an early Elite. That is a delicate proposition because it has the fragile Lotus gearbox rather than the strong Getrag unit used in the later Eites and Eclats. It has the two litre rather than two point two version of the very good Lotus 900 series engine (the best engine that Lotus ever made). It is however lovely when it works, and hyper, mega 70s. Lotuses even more than most classic cars need regular road use or they have hissy fits.
NB that Elites and Eclats are the last Lotuses that Chapman had anything to do with, although he was apparently not really very interested in the road cars. They have a very Chapman- esque feature: the final drive units are part of the rear suspension. Such engineering elegance! Such silliness in hard road use!
Test drives?
Hopefully my Fiat 124 and Lancia Beta will be in good running order by, say, early September, if not before. The Fiat I have had a week and it is on the road but it needs a good checking over, tune up, and new tyres. The Lancia needs a new clutch and a very light recommission after two years in a dry barn. I am having some difficulties at present getting people to work on the cars, but I hope to see progress soon. The Fiat is going to a specialist on 10 August. The Lancia ... dunno - watch this space.
If you find yourself near South Oxfordshire you can come and have a go in the cars, or if they are not ready yet you can poke and prod at them and sit in them and get an idea of what they are like.
My late Eclat will not turn a wheel again for at least a year, if not far longer. It last drove in early 2018. It is a bigger project. It is like an early Excel, engine and carbs and wise, but is a slightly more raw experience because of its rear suspension and drivetrain set up, and its less good brakes. The Excel got the robust Toyota transmission and drivetrain and brakes that make pub bores say that it is a Supra in drag (this is not true) The Eclat looks more 70s than an Excel, (although my one is from 1982).
A friend has an early Elite. That is a delicate proposition because it has the fragile Lotus gearbox rather than the strong Getrag unit used in the later Eites and Eclats. It has the two litre rather than two point two version of the very good Lotus 900 series engine (the best engine that Lotus ever made). It is however lovely when it works, and hyper, mega 70s. Lotuses even more than most classic cars need regular road use or they have hissy fits.
NB that Elites and Eclats are the last Lotuses that Chapman had anything to do with, although he was apparently not really very interested in the road cars. They have a very Chapman- esque feature: the final drive units are part of the rear suspension. Such engineering elegance! Such silliness in hard road use!
Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 8th July 18:23
2 Spider Veloces coming up at the Historic Auctioneers sale at Windsorview Lakes on 18th July.
Both UK supplied right hookers with plenty of history and both allegedly solid cars.
Estimate £12-16K on the green one, £10-14K on the red one. Prices are all over the place at the Auctions just now so might be worth a punt (after a careful inspection naturally).
Both UK supplied right hookers with plenty of history and both allegedly solid cars.
Estimate £12-16K on the green one, £10-14K on the red one. Prices are all over the place at the Auctions just now so might be worth a punt (after a careful inspection naturally).
I had a couple of 70s Fiats with the Lampredi twin-cams back in the 70s and they just loved to rev although mine were both saloons, a 125 and a 132 1800ES.
Curiously as has been said the 1800 Fiat models actually had 1,756cc, but the 1750 Alfas had 1,779cc.
And in both cases the bigger engine came about by boring out 1.6 litre engines, but the 2.0 litre ones had a longer stroke to get the extra capacity which is why they weren't quite so rev-happy.
I'd love to be in a position to buy any Alfa, Fiat or Lancia with one of those twin-cam engines - from an era when Italian cars just oozed style and mechanical sophistication like 4 wheel disc brakes, 5 speed gearboxes and aluminium gearbox casings unlike any BL product.
Curiously as has been said the 1800 Fiat models actually had 1,756cc, but the 1750 Alfas had 1,779cc.
And in both cases the bigger engine came about by boring out 1.6 litre engines, but the 2.0 litre ones had a longer stroke to get the extra capacity which is why they weren't quite so rev-happy.
I'd love to be in a position to buy any Alfa, Fiat or Lancia with one of those twin-cam engines - from an era when Italian cars just oozed style and mechanical sophistication like 4 wheel disc brakes, 5 speed gearboxes and aluminium gearbox casings unlike any BL product.
I am not sure you would bag a morgan for 15k. I sold my 1988 morgan 4/4 (4seater) about 6 years ago for a bit more than that, I dont think they have dropped much. Hexham horseless had a 4 seater in recently at just shy of 20k
I loved my morgan and had it for 4 years and 40k miles. The cvh engine is not exotic, but works well enough in the 4/4. There are a few about with the lampredi twin cam ( the hhc one was thus equipped). The morgan is an event to drive in a similar vein to TVR (obvs without a lot of the performance).
I used mine as a daily driver for a lot of the time,(12 months commuting from midlands to kent weekly) and it did demand some fettling on a regular basis to keep things In order, but that was part if the fun. My car went to australia when sold, i understand a fair few of the later cbh cars went there in recent times die to some import tax loophole
I loved my morgan and had it for 4 years and 40k miles. The cvh engine is not exotic, but works well enough in the 4/4. There are a few about with the lampredi twin cam ( the hhc one was thus equipped). The morgan is an event to drive in a similar vein to TVR (obvs without a lot of the performance).
I used mine as a daily driver for a lot of the time,(12 months commuting from midlands to kent weekly) and it did demand some fettling on a regular basis to keep things In order, but that was part if the fun. My car went to australia when sold, i understand a fair few of the later cbh cars went there in recent times die to some import tax loophole
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