Alfa Romeo Spider 2000 Veloce

[courty]

bit of an update on the Spider.....

I put a new radiator in as part of the mounting had come loose (it is a soldered join), and this was what was taking the cowling out...which then was fouling the fan.

Anyhow, new radiator, new cowling. The engine is running cooler, so the old rad. wasn't quite what it was 120,000 miles and 40 odd years ago lol.

I have also been messing about with the front toe setting. The outside of the fronts have been wearing, so I have tried to set the toe towards a neutral setting.

I saw the Alfa-holics guys at Bicester during the 25th Anniversary bash, they were speaking about a thicker front anti-roll bar and rear bar delete. They were surprised that I did regular track days on a standard set up/skinny tyres. I'll think about it....

Photo from Castle Coombe courtesy of the TR Register track day back in May. Drove pretty hard all day, chasing my mate in a Jensen Heally with a race-prepped 2.2 lotus engine....he was quicker on the straights obviously...

[courty]

I do prefer the "Classic" track days as the speed difference is much less.

I was at Snetterton sharing the track with a group of Porsche GT3 RS etc. with carbon brakes.
As you can imagine the rear view mirrors are not quite up to modern standards...and neither are the brakes or power on a classic car. To see a GT3 gaining as I was bumbling down to Agostini (left hand hairpin) at about 90mph and slowing to turn in early (not a lot of grip, so you turn in early with these oldies and turn the car with the rear wheels)...GT3 at warp speed, ready to stand on carbon brakes and turn in late, not a good combo. Thank fully I anticipated and waited for him to pass, but I had to slow up and postpone the turn in....it was then tempting to pass him on the inside mid-corner, but kept my head lol.
I also prefer tracks like Goodwood and Castle Coombe that don't have such heavy braking zones and hairpins which are bit easier on classic cars to carry speed.

Anyhow, after the Castle Coombe day I had a blast up through Wales from Cheltenham to Bets y Coed. Found some cracking roads off the beaten track. Same on the way back...with one heart in mouth moment.

[threespires]

Wonderful, I enjoyed reading that.

[courty]

As for the heart in mouth moment.

1. This looks like pretty good sightlines eh? https://www.google.com/maps/@52.8519484,-3.5583542...

So, road is clear, gave it some welly up there!

Thing is, there is a kink over a brow which I couldn't see until I was upon it at 60mph.

It's here: https://www.google.com/maps/@52.8440101,-3.5621846...

Doesn't look much on google, but in a low car it was on me in a blink of an eye...I put a wheel off, but thankfully the Spider passed the moose test lol!

The roads were brilliant until Hereford, then after that a waste of time taking B roads as there is just traffic on them, and not just the odd bumbler to pass.

[courty]

Anyway, I am planning another euro-trip in the Spider, so hopefully will update this thread accordingly.

It's difficult to know how to prep an old car for a 2500 mile trip. New oil and filter obviously, spare plugs and alternator belt...also I have a spare fuel pump and distributor. Apart from that, fingers crossed and go for it!

Hope to do French rural roads down to the Jura, French/Italian Alps, Sardinia, Corsica then back via Swiss alps, Schwarzwald, Vosges and French rural route home.....

My wife will be accompanying us, so it will be measured driving otherwise my ear will get bent lol. Even so, the Spider will hopefully relish a proper work-out.

[BS9ider]

Great pictures, it sounds like you are in the South West area. Have you driven up to Bafflehaus via Chepstow? That's a run I really enjoy from Bristol in my Fiat 124 Sport Spider

[courty]

BS9ider said:

Great pictures, it sounds like you are in the South West area. Have you driven up to Bafflehaus via Chepstow? That's a run I really enjoy from Bristol in my Fiat 124 Sport Spider

Actually I am in East Kent which is the wrong side of the M25 for any decent driving areas apart from France lol.

I was attending a university field trip at Betws y Coed, didn't fancy 9 hours squeezed in a minibus, so threw in a cheeky track day, stayed over in Cheltenham and them bombed it up through the Welsh back-roads.

[Jhonno]

Cool car and thread. Great to see it being used and abused. For the wear on the outer edge of the tyre, that isn't due to a lack of camber and tracking it is it? Normally that would be a sign of more negative camber being required..

[Hoofy]

Great read. Colour me envious!

courty said:

The roads were brilliant until Hereford, then after that a waste of time taking B roads as there is just traffic on them, and not just the odd bumbler to pass.

Interesting to note the above - I imagined a slower, older car would be entertaining to drive even when held up by people doing way below the speed limit (I don't mean 5mph in a 30!).

[courty]

Jhonno said:

Cool car and thread. Great to see it being used and abused. For the wear on the outer edge of the tyre, that isn't due to a lack of camber and tracking it is it? Normally that would be a sign of more negative camber being required..

The camber isn't adjustable on these, but it is within tolerance. I think the aftermarket alloys are lighter than the original steel wheels and also have a different offset, it seems they need a less positive toe setting than the original steels. I also heard that is is normal for these cars to wear the outside on trackdays/hard driving anyway.
It isn't easy to get the toe set as the usual suspects don't have the data on their computerised machines. Also, the rod lengths are crucial (there are three rods), so it's a bit of an art as the drivers side rod has to be set to length and neutral toe, then the centre rod length, then the passenger side to neutral and all the lengths checked. Then after that the toe set (some say using the centre and drivers side rods and others the two outer rods....try explaining all that to a tyre place.... and also the original manual includes weights in the car when setting the toe. I have been using a laser set up from the rear wheels.

[courty]

Hoofy said:

Interesting to note the above - I imagined a slower, older car would be entertaining to drive even when held up by people doing way below the speed limit (I don't mean 5mph in a 30!).

When I first got the Spider I imagined it would get in a tangle and end up in a hedge if trying to press on. However, once you get used to the feel of the car (it feels very different to modern cars which tend to just go round corners...until they don't!) then it can actually be driven pretty fast as the loss of grip is progressive, controllable and, in the case of the rear wheels, actually helpful to turn the car mid-corner.
I think overall our 1980's front wheel drive Lancia Prisma handles better (a very light saloon, based on the Lanci Delta, under 1000kg, no initial understeer and lovely four wheel drifts through sweeping corners), but the Alfa 105 cars were well known for advanced handling back in the 1960's/early 70's.
Also with 120hp and weight about a 1000kg, the Spider goes ok, plenty enough up to about 100mph, then it feels like it runs out of puff with the hood down (although top speed is supposedly 120mph, I reckon I've only done about 100mph which is 110mph on the speedo (track days of course!)
edit: Also the mistake some owners make with these cars is to fit modern wheels and low profile tyres, which ruin the handling on anything apart from billiard table surfaces as they become skittish. Some do fit uprated front anti-roll bars which reduced intitial understeer, but I haven't started on mods. The main thing on oldies is whether the bushes ball joints and shock absorbers are up to scratch.

Edited by courty on Thursday 24th August 17:33

[Jhonno]

courty said:

Jhonno said:

Cool car and thread. Great to see it being used and abused. For the wear on the outer edge of the tyre, that isn't due to a lack of camber and tracking it is it? Normally that would be a sign of more negative camber being required..

The camber isn't adjustable on these, but it is within tolerance. I think the aftermarket alloys are lighter than the original steel wheels and also have a different offset, it seems they need a less positive toe setting than the original steels. I also heard that is is normal for these cars to wear the outside on trackdays/hard driving anyway.
It isn't easy to get the toe set as the usual suspects don't have the data on their computerised machines. Also, the rod lengths are crucial (there are three rods), so it's a bit of an art as the drivers side rod has to be set to length and neutral toe, then the centre rod length, then the passenger side to neutral and all the lengths checked. Then after that the toe set (some say using the centre and drivers side rods and others the two outer rods....try explaining all that to a tyre place.... and also the original manual includes weights in the car when setting the toe. I have been using a laser set up from the rear wheels.

Ah, so tolerance will be normal road spec though which will need less camber than track use.. So that would explain why they wear the outside on hard driving/trackdays.

Ouch! I imagine finding someone who can do that isn't straight forward!

[courty]

Jhonno said:

Ah, so tolerance will be normal road spec though which will need less camber than track use.. So that would explain why they wear the outside on hard driving/trackdays.

Yes, I believe you are right. I think there may be adjustable rods available for "GTA" type set ups, but I haven't bothered on any mods yet.
On alpine driving there are many hairpins and understeer does come into play...hence Alfaholics were on about a thicker front sway bar.
edit: There is a large part of me though that just wants to enjoy the 1960's feel of the original set up with all the limitations.

[Hoofy]

courty said:

Hoofy said:

Interesting to note the above - I imagined a slower, older car would be entertaining to drive even when held up by people doing way below the speed limit (I don't mean 5mph in a 30!).

When I first got the Spider I imagined it would get in a tangle and end up in a hedge if trying to press on. However, once you get used to the feel of the car (it feels very different to modern cars which tend to just go round corners...until they don't!) then it can actually be driven pretty fast as the loss of grip is progressive, controllable and, in the case of the rear wheels, actually helpful to turn the car mid-corner.
I think overall our 1980's front wheel drive Lancia Prisma handles better (a very light saloon, based on the Lanci Delta, under 1000kg, no initial understeer and lovely four wheel drifts through sweeping corners), but the Alfa 105 cars were well known for advanced handling back in the 1960's/early 70's.
Also with 120hp and weight about a 1000kg, the Spider goes ok, plenty enough up to about 100mph, then it feels like it runs out of puff with the hood down (although top speed is supposedly 120mph, I reckon I've only done about 100mph which is 110mph on the speedo (track days of course!)
edit: Also the mistake some owners make with these cars is to fit modern wheels and low profile tyres, which ruin the handling on anything apart from billiard table surfaces as they become skittish. Some do fit uprated front anti-roll bars which reduced intitial understeer, but I haven't started on mods. The main thing on oldies is whether the bushes ball joints and shock absorbers are up to scratch.

Edited by courty on Thursday 24th August 17:33

Irrelevant to my life but utterly fascinating nonetheless.

Also, I'd love to have a go on a track like Goodwood!

Are you going to attend a Goodwood Revival event with it?

[duncancallum]

Nice car.

Folk think grip is the same as handling. It isnt.

I do love a tyre with a sidewall. Much more compliant

[BS9ider]

courty said:

BS9ider said:

Great pictures, it sounds like you are in the South West area. Have you driven up to Bafflehaus via Chepstow? That's a run I really enjoy from Bristol in my Fiat 124 Sport Spider

Actually I am in East Kent which is the wrong side of the M25 for any decent driving areas apart from France lol.

I was attending a university field trip at Betws y Coed, didn't fancy 9 hours squeezed in a minibus, so threw in a cheeky track day, stayed over in Cheltenham and them bombed it up through the Welsh back-roads.

Good effort. Before heading west I grew up around Maidstone. I remember there being some great roads south of Ashford down to Camber sands and the coast. But everywhere else was pretty busy..

[velocemitch]

courty said:

Jhonno said:

Ah, so tolerance will be normal road spec though which will need less camber than track use.. So that would explain why they wear the outside on hard driving/trackdays.

Yes, I believe you are right. I think there may be adjustable rods available for "GTA" type set ups, but I haven't bothered on any mods yet.
On alpine driving there are many hairpins and understeer does come into play...hence Alfaholics were on about a thicker front sway bar.
edit: There is a large part of me though that just wants to enjoy the 1960's feel of the original set up with all the limitations.

You can get adjustable top arms to allow you to play around with camber settings. It’s probably worth doing if you track the car a lot.
Those track rods are a bloody nightmare!

Pretty sure your photo is the Abergwysn Pass, pretty famous road that.

[Mr Tidy]

It's great to see you are still enjoying your Spider.

They are really beautiful cars from an era of wonderful Italian styling, when BL were churning out MGBs and TR7s!

[courty]

Hoofy said:

Irrelevant to my life but utterly fascinating nonetheless.

Also, I'd love to have a go on a track like Goodwood!

Are you going to attend a Goodwood Revival event with it?

I have been to the Lancia Motor Club track days at Goodwood. To race at Goodwood revival etc. is a very different ball game for race spec. cars and gentry lol.

[courty]

BS9ider said:

Good effort. Before heading west I grew up around Maidstone. I remember there being some great roads south of Ashford down to Camber sands and the coast. But everywhere else was pretty busy..

Spot on, across Romney Marsh etc. are some good roads off the beaten track.