Alfa Romeo Spider 2000 Veloce
Discussion
Castrol for a knave said:
Loving this thread and your car looks fantastic. Great to see it on the track - you've given me ideas (soon as I finish putting on my new rocker covers)
I agree with you that they are a car that gives good feedback. I have a 67 Duetto, and there's no snap oversteer, you just know it going to lose the back end, it's quite progressive.
I have not fitted any upgraded suspension parts. I got chatting to some of the guys over in the US on AlfaBB and they took a view that it is a bit too easy to stiffen up the suspension at the expense of the body, which then has to take an excessive amount of twist.
One thing people don't appreciate it that his was a superb engine for it's time, and is often overlooked in the "greatest engines" debate. This was alight and durable lump that even in my 1600 guise was putting out 105bhp in the mid 60's. Compare that to a lot of it's peers. Compare it to an XR3i or Cavalier SRi 20 years later - which were only just coming close.
The spider is a very underrated car, and I think it is just getting recognise for what it is/was.
That is some nice input, thank you, yes a lot of people don't realise that the Spiders are 105 cars very similar in set up to their Bertone GT Coupe cousins, albeit with a shorter wheelbase/longer overhangs and a bit more chassis flex. Classic Alfa do a track day at Goodwood, usually on the same weekend as Le Mans. However, I would recommend joining the Lancia Motor Club just for their track day at Goodwood (it's on this Saturday...tomorrow!!), as even with the membership cost it still comes out cheaper, and massively cheaper than to go through Goodwood directly.I agree with you that they are a car that gives good feedback. I have a 67 Duetto, and there's no snap oversteer, you just know it going to lose the back end, it's quite progressive.
I have not fitted any upgraded suspension parts. I got chatting to some of the guys over in the US on AlfaBB and they took a view that it is a bit too easy to stiffen up the suspension at the expense of the body, which then has to take an excessive amount of twist.
One thing people don't appreciate it that his was a superb engine for it's time, and is often overlooked in the "greatest engines" debate. This was alight and durable lump that even in my 1600 guise was putting out 105bhp in the mid 60's. Compare that to a lot of it's peers. Compare it to an XR3i or Cavalier SRi 20 years later - which were only just coming close.
The spider is a very underrated car, and I think it is just getting recognise for what it is/was.
Little Bob said:
Great thread, I have a soft spot for these and love that the Spider is being well used.
I've read through the thread, and apologies if I missed it, I didn't notice an update on the oil use/leaks - have they resolved themselves with the Lucas leak stop, or has more preventative maintenance been required?
Well, the gearbox seals have pretty much healed up now it's running back on manufacturer spec. shell helix mineral 80w90, plus some lucas stop leak and Wynns seal softener for luck. I've read through the thread, and apologies if I missed it, I didn't notice an update on the oil use/leaks - have they resolved themselves with the Lucas leak stop, or has more preventative maintenance been required?
Before I went to Castle Coombe in May I changed the diff. oil again (the diff is limited slip and it got a very good work out coming out of the Snetterton hairpins. I noticed it had become a little noisy on slow maneuvers after that track day)...my! it was black after only about 15k miles. That now also has Shell Helix mineral 80w90 and has quietened down nicely.
I did a leak down test with compressed air on each engine cylinder on a warm engine. The air comes out of the dipstick, but the pressure loss is in the 'green' zone and evenly across all cylinders, so yeah, probably burns a bit through the piston rings.
I changed from cheap 20w50 mineral oil to Selenia HPX (semi-synthetic 20w50 for worn engines) and the oil use is noticeably less.
I have just changed the oil again ready for this euro trip and that is the last of the HPX as it seems it has been discontinued. I have some Valvoline VR1 20w50 to try on next change..and for top ups on this current useage.
velocemitch said:
I’ve always used Millers Classic Sport in mine. Should be available most decent stockists. It’s 20/50 semi synth.
My 1750 engine doesn’t seem to burn much, but I have persistent leak from the sump casing. My 2000 burns a bit, but doesn’t leak!
Can’t win.
Might experiment with the Lucas stuff for the leak, does it harm anything?
I don't think it will help with engine gasket leaks. To be honest it was a year or two back when I had the gearbox oil leak, this was caused by using redline synthetic 75w90 and rectified by going back to mineral 80w90 plus some Wynns and Lucas additives. For the engine I put in Lucas oil conditioner ( although this time I have just put HPX as I forgot, and it isn't using much so far).My 1750 engine doesn’t seem to burn much, but I have persistent leak from the sump casing. My 2000 burns a bit, but doesn’t leak!
Can’t win.
Might experiment with the Lucas stuff for the leak, does it harm anything?
Castrol for a knave said:
I have Redline 80/90 in my box and it seems a little weepy. Also comments in Alfa world that it can be a bit aggressive for the bright metal. Will follow your lead and swap for Helix.
I use VR1. High ZDDP content is good for the cams. 928 owners swear by it, stops dry rattly start ups on both my Alfa and 928. Not had any leaks from it.
That is good to hear about the VR1, I will see how it goes...if not then the Millers Classic, but it is pricey.I use VR1. High ZDDP content is good for the cams. 928 owners swear by it, stops dry rattly start ups on both my Alfa and 928. Not had any leaks from it.
As promised here is some update from our three-week euro-tour mega trip just completed.
We left on Sunday 27th August and returned Saturday 16th September, We covered 3,800 miles (according to the Spider odometer) at average 29mpg. Of this only 3.5 hours were motorways (from Genoa to Brescia, and Arras to Calais), the rest were mainly rural roads. Some days we saw many more motorcycles than cars!
I will post a few pictures just to break it down a bit. My wife (of 30-odd years) said that she felt very safe in the Spider, but she certainly is very involved as a passenger and at times (when I wanted to press on) she wasn't happy with my driving; i.e. overtaking maneuvers and driving style through corners. Suffice to say, these trips are better done without nervous passengers, or with a mr plod driving style but hey-ho I think our marriage will survive lol. Our best day was travelling through the Vosges, where there was no other traffic and I took it extremely relaxed. I did offer her to drive, but the second gear has a very slow/ineffective synchromesh. She has driven the Spider on occasion, but doesn't really like to drive it, so she declined.
We did rural roads all the way down to Troyes in the Champagne. However, I would recommend peage for the northern France until closer to Reims as the D-roads in northern France a very tedious due to the population density. I think we spent more time in 30kmp/h with speed-humps...village after village. However, once into the interior of France the D-roads are very good. A proper map is required, otherwise the Sat-nav will put you on the main routes, which are busy with traffic. So a combo of map and sat-nav works well, with "way-points" to force the nav. to take the route you want.
First stop, south of Troyes and we met up with some, "12 in 12 Challenge" friends. This is an informal Alpine challenge organised by Tony Calo, and is great fun. Those travelling down from the north (Brits, Belgians etc.) meet up in the Champagne and take two days to travel down to Italy via the best driving roads. (Photo by Tony Calo around the Dijon area, from a Fiat Dino)
![](https://thumbsnap.com/sc/sqNb7XEA.jpg[/img]</a> <a href="https://thumbsnap.com/LiBVs8rq" Target="_blank" rel="nofollow">[img]https://thumbsnap.com/sc/LiBVs8rq.jpg)
We left on Sunday 27th August and returned Saturday 16th September, We covered 3,800 miles (according to the Spider odometer) at average 29mpg. Of this only 3.5 hours were motorways (from Genoa to Brescia, and Arras to Calais), the rest were mainly rural roads. Some days we saw many more motorcycles than cars!
I will post a few pictures just to break it down a bit. My wife (of 30-odd years) said that she felt very safe in the Spider, but she certainly is very involved as a passenger and at times (when I wanted to press on) she wasn't happy with my driving; i.e. overtaking maneuvers and driving style through corners. Suffice to say, these trips are better done without nervous passengers, or with a mr plod driving style but hey-ho I think our marriage will survive lol. Our best day was travelling through the Vosges, where there was no other traffic and I took it extremely relaxed. I did offer her to drive, but the second gear has a very slow/ineffective synchromesh. She has driven the Spider on occasion, but doesn't really like to drive it, so she declined.
We did rural roads all the way down to Troyes in the Champagne. However, I would recommend peage for the northern France until closer to Reims as the D-roads in northern France a very tedious due to the population density. I think we spent more time in 30kmp/h with speed-humps...village after village. However, once into the interior of France the D-roads are very good. A proper map is required, otherwise the Sat-nav will put you on the main routes, which are busy with traffic. So a combo of map and sat-nav works well, with "way-points" to force the nav. to take the route you want.
First stop, south of Troyes and we met up with some, "12 in 12 Challenge" friends. This is an informal Alpine challenge organised by Tony Calo, and is great fun. Those travelling down from the north (Brits, Belgians etc.) meet up in the Champagne and take two days to travel down to Italy via the best driving roads. (Photo by Tony Calo around the Dijon area, from a Fiat Dino)
Edited by courty on Tuesday 19th September 16:20
Edited by courty on Tuesday 19th September 16:21
After completing the, "Hanniball Run", a route down from the Champange to Italy which was interrupted by snow, so unfortunately we had to miss out Galibier, Isoard and Agnello passes (the highlights of the route) and make do with Mont Cenis (one can see from the photo is scenic enough) and Sestriere (complete waste of time due to traffic). Then on 30th August the "12 in 12 Challenge" , an informal jaunt across the French/Italian alps 300 miles of alpine cols in one day...brilliant! 
From there with our 12-in-12 friends we did a driving tour of Sardinia and Corsica.
Sardinia had much better roads (in the interior they are amazing with very little traffic) but Corsica has the scenery. Some of the Corsican coastal roads are incredibly twisty; mile after endless miles of turns! Sardinia:
Sardinia had much better roads (in the interior they are amazing with very little traffic) but Corsica has the scenery. Some of the Corsican coastal roads are incredibly twisty; mile after endless miles of turns! Sardinia:
Before we left I have messed around with the front toe setting, setting it to neutral toe. By Sardinia the inner edges of the front tyres were wearing, so I extended the outer steering arms by half a turn. This, in effect, due to the 105 cars having steering rods was too much, and so the rest of the trip the toe-in was way too much (5mm) and the outer edges wore out! Since returning home (and having access to my laser) I have reset the toe to 3mm overall).
Picture from a small village on Cap Corse, north of Bastia.
Picture from a small village on Cap Corse, north of Bastia.
Edited by courty on Tuesday 19th September 16:57
Then, after Corsica, a trip up via Bernina and Albula passes to Thusis, Switzerland, where we stayed with friends for a few days.
After that, a jaunt via the Schwarz Wald to Frieburg, and then via the Kaiser=Stuhl and Vosges to Bazeilles, just south of the Belgium border. Then via the Commonwealth cemetery and WW1 museum at Souchez...to Calais and home.
Kaiserstuhl, between Freiburg and the Rhine.
After that, a jaunt via the Schwarz Wald to Frieburg, and then via the Kaiser=Stuhl and Vosges to Bazeilles, just south of the Belgium border. Then via the Commonwealth cemetery and WW1 museum at Souchez...to Calais and home.
Kaiserstuhl, between Freiburg and the Rhine.
We had a few adventures along the way. A frenchman tried to kill us with a dustbin that fell off his pick-up truck coming down Col de Vars (thankfully just hit the left front tyre and no damage) and we had a Corsican pig try to hitch a lift near Monte Cinto (trotter marks have pretty much polished out lol). My wife conceded that her predictions of a mechanical breakdown were unfounded, and apart from uneven front tyre wear (my fault) the car ran perfectly. With top down motoring giving a real sense of connection and the very comfortable ride, plus decent storage space, the Spider is a surprisingly good touring car. Of course it is noisy on motorways, but will sit quite happily at 80mph (70mph for less noise) on the peage motorways). It certainly is no Caterham, so overtaking slow traffic isn't always simple and fast cornering requires concentration, but overall it is a perfect touring car and certainly turns heads in out of the way French villages. Photo with Swiss Merc. oldtimer on Bernina pass. 
ATG said:
That road's about six inches wide too. I hustled down it the other way a little while ago when the other road out the back of Lake Vyrnwy was blocked by a landslide. Really narrow and nothing between you and a big drop. Savoury parping moments galore.
Absolutely, yes the steep drop to the side doesn't show obviously on google streetview. Also, there is no mobile reception out there, so if you go over and survive, you only have the odd sheep for company!This is the view driving north. The kink is obvious. But driving south, the kink is hidden as you ascend and it looks like a straight road...until you are right on it. It's unforgiving! https://www.google.com/maps/@52.8400081,-3.563466,...
Edited by courty on Wednesday 20th September 18:53
Little Bob said:
Looks like a fantastic trip, I’m planning something similar next spring in our S2000, your post has ignited further research.
Spider is looking good, great that there were no issues (aside from the toe in) on the trip - pretty impressive.
For pure driving on decent but quiet roads, hang about in the Vosges for as long as possible.Spider is looking good, great that there were no issues (aside from the toe in) on the trip - pretty impressive.
Even the regular French departmental roads from the Champagne around Dijon to the Jura are worth exploring if you want to turn off the Peage and take a bit more time.
The Alps however are much more scenic and many of the lesser known passes are relatively quiet.
I would think the S2000 would make a perfect touring car, a bit more grunt when needed for overtaking than the classic Alfa.
I had the Spider checked over by the guy who looks after it. I planned for him to give it a check over before the mega-euro tour but just didn't manage it.
Anyway, he replaced the 6 steering ball joints and the needle valves in the carburettors.
Apart from that everything is tickety-boo. Not bad as it's done 30k hard miles since the last proper suspension check in 2018.
Certainly would have saved me wearing the expensive Pirelli CN36 tyres out if he had set the steering and toe BEFORE we did 3,800 miles round the Alps and Sardinia etc.
I purchased some cheap Toyo tyres for the alloy wheels, but can't bring myself to try them...I just know they will be dull and crap.
In the meantime it's back on the steelies with the skinny Michelins. Now the steering has been tightened up, the noticeable understeer has very much reduced, I would say almost disappeared, even in spirited road driving.
The skinny tyres have comical amounts of grip in the wet though, the Pirellis were so good in the wet.
Some cold air and a two hour blast around this morning, plus with new needle valves the tick-over is smooth as a Rolls-Royce.
Anyway, he replaced the 6 steering ball joints and the needle valves in the carburettors.
Apart from that everything is tickety-boo. Not bad as it's done 30k hard miles since the last proper suspension check in 2018.
Certainly would have saved me wearing the expensive Pirelli CN36 tyres out if he had set the steering and toe BEFORE we did 3,800 miles round the Alps and Sardinia etc.
I purchased some cheap Toyo tyres for the alloy wheels, but can't bring myself to try them...I just know they will be dull and crap.
In the meantime it's back on the steelies with the skinny Michelins. Now the steering has been tightened up, the noticeable understeer has very much reduced, I would say almost disappeared, even in spirited road driving.
The skinny tyres have comical amounts of grip in the wet though, the Pirellis were so good in the wet.
Some cold air and a two hour blast around this morning, plus with new needle valves the tick-over is smooth as a Rolls-Royce.
A little update on the Spider.
Firstly, I succumbed to the idea of a front anti-roll bar upgrade.
I have had the 165 section tyres and generally wet weather in which those tyres don't have much grip..along with very poor road surfaces, so I haven't been able to come to a conclusion...except there is less body roll (for better or worse I don't know yet)...and initial turn-in is possibly sharper...my feeling is that the thicker bar will stay.
|https://thumbsnap.com/kZZUohZQ[/url]
Also I tried some modern tyres...photo shows the chunky 185 section moderns (Toyo nano-energy 3) and original type 165 section.
Conclusion: The moderns are spiteful and hateful. They have a lot more grip, but then let go massively, suddenly, and without warning.. sudden massive oversteer, mid-corner on a constant throttle and a constant radius bend, and of course at a higher speed due to more initial grip. I did 50 miles and they are going to be junked...horrible things tried to spin me across the carriageway. They are fine for normal driving, but hateful for sporty driving.
A new set of Pirelli CN36 185 70 are on the way from Longstone tyres. These have much more wet weather grip than the 165 tyres, but still communicate and do things progressively, so they are worth the premium.
Firstly, I succumbed to the idea of a front anti-roll bar upgrade.
I have had the 165 section tyres and generally wet weather in which those tyres don't have much grip..along with very poor road surfaces, so I haven't been able to come to a conclusion...except there is less body roll (for better or worse I don't know yet)...and initial turn-in is possibly sharper...my feeling is that the thicker bar will stay.
|https://thumbsnap.com/kZZUohZQ[/url]Also I tried some modern tyres...photo shows the chunky 185 section moderns (Toyo nano-energy 3) and original type 165 section.
Conclusion: The moderns are spiteful and hateful. They have a lot more grip, but then let go massively, suddenly, and without warning.. sudden massive oversteer, mid-corner on a constant throttle and a constant radius bend, and of course at a higher speed due to more initial grip. I did 50 miles and they are going to be junked...horrible things tried to spin me across the carriageway. They are fine for normal driving, but hateful for sporty driving.
A new set of Pirelli CN36 185 70 are on the way from Longstone tyres. These have much more wet weather grip than the 165 tyres, but still communicate and do things progressively, so they are worth the premium.
Edited by courty on Wednesday 6th March 21:37
Also, looking through the history, the car has had it's original ATE discs.
The fronts still had decent thickness, but were flared with rust.
I happened across a set of ATE classicline discs from Autodoc, the last set of rears too. I have been very impressed with ATE on my 166, and less than impressed with Brembo or Pagid.
The new ATE discs look beautiful.
The rears also have a drum for the handbrake, which is very effective.
I had a weeping front caliper, so I replaced the front pair, and also the fluid with ATE racing.
The front discs are a jiggle because the hub bearing has to come off.
Rear disc with handbrake drum.
Original front drum...quality kit lasted 45 years and 130k miles.
Front discs sit behind the hub.
The fronts still had decent thickness, but were flared with rust.
I happened across a set of ATE classicline discs from Autodoc, the last set of rears too. I have been very impressed with ATE on my 166, and less than impressed with Brembo or Pagid.
The new ATE discs look beautiful.
The rears also have a drum for the handbrake, which is very effective.
I had a weeping front caliper, so I replaced the front pair, and also the fluid with ATE racing.
The front discs are a jiggle because the hub bearing has to come off.
Rear disc with handbrake drum.
Original front drum...quality kit lasted 45 years and 130k miles.
Front discs sit behind the hub.
Edited by courty on Thursday 7th March 07:56
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