Aston martin V8 Vantage club sport type thing

[IainWhy]

Batch 7.5R said:

Absolutely LOVE this - exactly my kind of build, exactly what I’d have in mind for a Vantage if I ever got my hands on one (although without the knowledge you’ve gained!) and, whilst I’m acutely aware my car’s not an AM, kind of where I’ve aimed for with the wagon (although family reasons mean all the seats are standard and present).

Iain this has been a fantastic read, thank you, and I look forward to more. For some reason the pics of tha cage and seat above just sum the whole thing up for me - lovely!

Thanks mate, it is always nice to know others take something from it at whatever level tbh

I totally get the family transport angle, I spend most of my time ferrying my two about in an old derv 5 series, i previously ran a c32 amg estate for many years so absolutely feel a fast estate

[IainWhy]

Ok, so i figure i should try and condense this down a touch, or at least get it into one update.

Many maintenance things were done, oil was changed (yet again) brake pads were changed (i believe pagid rs14 they are some "secret sauce" from a race program, (read reasonably priced as no one is 100% sure what compound they are) and on the front pagid endurance RST2 as they are less squeaky on the road than RSL1's fluid fully bled through with Castrol react (not React SRF, im tighter than cramp at £80 for a bottle is taking the piss imo). Finally and not just trying to be subversive i have found the motul gear oil to be a bit on the thick side as its creating some notchy changes when cold and to honest you can still detect it when hot, so i put half a liter of dex 6 ATF in the box, this has improved the shift a fair bit. I have no doubt that some will not like this idea, but its not uncommon to do it in other marques and its something i do on the m3 and have done for many years.

with this and other things done, i headed off down to Ollies so we could convene and do some bolt checks on the cars. what this meant in reality was that i could work on ollies e30 for a bit and he would vaguely help me was mine as i am the world least motivated car cleaner.

As we had a bit of time i made use of ollies super flas weighing scales. THis was a big thing for me, for a number of reasons, firstly i really wanted to know what the ca actually weighed, and secondly i had set the suspension heights by eye and i wanted to know how well balanced it was and the cross weights.

So (drumroll please) a standard vantage is apparently kerb weighted at 1630 kgs, i am not 100% if that's fully fuelled or not.

So my car, with 40 ish ltrs of fuel on board, we are being lazy and saying 40kgs of fuel, some crap in the glovebox and fully wet (all fluids) loads of changes to reduce weight but then also adding bigger discs and a half cage....





so were saying 1510 without driver or fuel load and the cross weights were fully respectable. Happy with that!, so much more weight could be lost, but its really hard not to just compromise the car horribly for more regular use.

I chucked a few weight plates in the car and set the balance to favour the passenger side to further compensate for the driver weight,this was to be honest a bt half arsed, it needs a quiet evening with some tea and no time pressures to get right, but it was ok.

Also: i realised i posted the wrong setup sheet for the car i past posts. this is my made up geometry on the car at present:



So geo above and no fuel weight approx 1510kg.


With tat done i started to have a bit of a worry about my front tyres, they were fine, but clearly were wearing a bit on the edge, i was concerned that 3 days would leave me naked round the rim. So i had a bit of a look at the stock of old NS2R's that we have been using on the Z4 racer, and fortunately there were a couple that were essentially new, new being a bit debateable as they were from 2016, but on the other hand, they had more tread, so "new"

I had those popped onto the rims and we were all set for departure, as per usual, early as st why this sort of thing always involved a 4am start i dont know, but it does.



First stop, Spa, i had booked a fairly st hotel in Malmedy, it wasn't intended to be crap, but it felt a bit like an old brothel and the code to release the kew was incorrect, due to having to wait about to sort the key out we went out for a few drinks, i am not a big drinker and this essentially resulted in me waking up in the middle of the night feeling hot and unwell. Morning saw a handful of anadin for breakfast, this is not how i like to start the day.

The morning was wet, wet enough that you know your going to be slow, on the plus side being that both ollie and I were in the least powerful cars on the track, that was probably for the best.







Of course armed with my sick new aero and 7 year old part worn track tyres the rain presented no issue, in no way at all was i slithering around each and every corner. that said we were not holding anyone up so rain proved as is often the case to be the great leveller, not just that all the porsche owners were all sat about comparing hats and holding hands.

Not long into the day., ollie had to get recovered off track, which made a change from me having to be recovered. Transpired the rotor arm had exploded going down Kemel the used one in the box was not the same as the one what had fallen to bits, fortunately having borrowed a drill we were able to get it sorted and back on track.

With the track drying rapidly times started to improve and the amount of time you were getting your arse handed to you by a radical / some stupid jet powered skateboard increased.(When there are lots of these on a trackday running with saloons its not a brilliant combination. Appreciate it takes all comers but they are under your door line and its just not idea).

The Aston was great, the diff really added to the ability to control the car on throttle and the brakes continued to be superb. Ideally it would have a bit more lick out of the slower corners but thats really a final drive ratio issue where the engine could do with being more on the boil more often. THe gear lever stayed attached which was also a plus. According to my garmin the car did 56 laps which at 3 minutes a lap and excluding in and out laps is a fair old run time.

Oil temperatures as the day dried and got hotter also increased, operating temperature of the oil leaving the block was peaking at 132 under full load but no higher. This was about the top end of my comfort level. its within the spec of a synthetic 10-60 but i found myself short shifting the car a little just to mitigate the heat and not flog the absolute living st out of it.







Best time was a slightly irritating 3.00.99 i would have liked to get under 3mins but it just didn't happen, was it the slightly stty tyres or the slightly stty driver, (probably the latter) but its not too far off.

Lap here now with added data:




That was one of my last last of the day, and with time called on the track wee packed the cap into the cars and made the short hop to Hotel Du Pits In Zolder.

I love zolder, i love the way the day always feels like there are few rules, i love the circuit and the hotel and food is great.

So on with it, we had some small good fortune in that an e36 had expired at spa the previous day and the guy had kindly said we could use the garage space he had booked at Zolder, so we chucked all the tools out of the cars, lidded up and got going. The morning was reasonably cool but all the signs pointed to a really hot day on the way.



The morning session where the track was clean, not too busy and not too hot gave me my best time, i suspect that my concentration was probably also at its peak. a 1.56 is i am pretty sure my best time round Zolder in any car i have used there and was close to ollies 1.55 that he has managed in the m3 race car, i was to be frank delighted with it. particularly as i knew there was more in it ass there had been an m5 in the way during the lap that had cost some time, annoyingly i wasn't able to find it, oil on track, increased traffic (annoying turbo skateboards) and quite a few accidents and i suspect my tyres now being well fked topped off with a lack of talent saw my optimals staying in the 1.55's but my actuals only troubling the 1.58's Still, i was having fun.

The same could not be said for my fellow driver. after a few laps the e30 started emitting a lot of steam. It was recovered off circuit (again its only funny because its usually me ) We will pulled the rad out but it all looked in order so refilled it with water and went to start it, at this point the car failed to turn over... Having pulled the plugs out the engine cranked freely. but also painted the side of a very posh trailer and accomodation center in red hot blue coolant (they really loved that) so sadly the e30 had eaten its head gasket. i vaguely considered suggesting we try to change it in the carpark but Ollie was unmoved by the idea, fortunately he was able to arrange a pickup within two hours of the failure, and the car was back at his house before we were.

Ollie spent the rest of the day being slightly salty and passengering with me.





Best lap here:


Amazingly zolder appeared to be having a noisy day so i was able to run for the latter part of the day with the flaps open, this resulted in people putting their fingers in their ears every time i went down the pit straight which was amusing.

The day again drew to a close, but were were now down to one very heavily loaded car. We had been booked to drive up to Meppen circuit in lower saxony, but being down to one vehicle it didn't feel like a trip worth making, so we re planned to go to the ring for a bit, however, it was closed the the public, so in a first ever for our eurotrips, we called it a draw and came back a few days early. As always, i have a list of things to get cracking on, but there is only so much you can write in one post.....

[4Q]

Another great write up. Thanks

[B'stard Child]

Enjoyed that a lot - Aston looks great from inside and outside

[DuncanM]

Mission accomplished then! You've built a very cool car, beautiful and fast.

[IainWhy]

4Q said:

Another great write up. Thanks

B'stard Child said:

Enjoyed that a lot - Aston looks great from inside and outside

DuncanM said:

Mission accomplished then! You've built a very cool car, beautiful and fast.

Thanks guys, as always there is more to do post trip.

Looking at my times vs other scumbag weirdo's on the garmin leaderboard i come in at 24th for this year for Spa



and 16th for the year at Zolder




I would like to improve on both of those tbh, clearly that just for oddballs with a Catalyst and who have lapped this year, but its nice to have some form of yardstick.

The car was not entirely faultless on the trip, though all things considered it was only minor stuff.

1. When really pressing on the gearbox started telling me that it was in reverse, this initially occurred going into Raidillon at a ton, so did give me a "code brown" moment, however on the basis that the engine was still in the car, i wasn't dead and the we were still accelerating i had to conclude that the dashboard was misguided. THis issue reoccurred again during the day and then again at zolder. in all cases once the car had cooled the issue went away. this leads me to believe that the gearbox is getting very hot and that the reverse light switch is taking a dump at a certain temperature. THe gearbox actually does have a fully pumped setrab oil cooler, however, paradoxically i think that the oil cooler is actually creating the issue.

Why would i make such a ridiculous statement and why is this such a drama. Its a drama firstly because i think the gearbox is essentially overheating, secondly the reverse lights come on and stay on when this occurs. now granted its an effective counter measure to people passing you but not exactly a good look. Why do i think the cooler is the issue? Well, during the second half of the day at zolder i ran with the exhaust bypass open. this means the gas does not pass through the rear silencer. as such the rear silencer does not get hot, or not as hot. the airflow for the transaxle cooler passes over the backbox and is collecting the heat, or becoming heat saturated (depending on how you want to looks at it) this is then either heating or failing to cool the gearbox. short version, i need to look at heat shielding and ducting the the gearbox cooler.

2. The engine oil is getting a bit warmer than i would ideally like, its not bad bad, but i would be much happier at 120 ish degrees max. I think this is largely an issue with the thermostat. its some ford junk that looks to have come out of a pickup truck, sophisticated, it aint. it will either get modified, or potentially i will design a new one working on the principal of pressure differential like an m3 one which will be much more efficient and flow better.

3. I used some what seemed to be perfectly good wiring plugs when i wired the stereo system in, they came loose shortly after i did it, i took it all apart, tightened them up and checked them all. no sooner than we had set off my stereo started turning off over bumps, the plugs are crap, i need to replace them with good ones.

4. the tyres are a limiting factor, or at least i think they are. Before the next trip i need to put my hand in my pocket and put some better ones on so that i am not constantly making that excuse.

5. someone, almost certainly some "superlight" dropped a ton of oil round the fastest corners at zolder right on the racing line (round (Sterrenwachtbocht and Kanaalbocht) it had been dusted and i knew it was there, it had been there for some hours, it just meant you had to tu tighter than you would like. however because i am an idiot, for some reason i just forgot about this for one lap, this meant i was going to quick and in the wrong place to tighten my line and as a result i had a pretty healthy slide, the rear wheel dropped into the gravel and its absolutely pebbledashed the the sill and the rear quarter. the quarter will need painting, the sill will be going in the bin anyway as i have some replacements. its a small thing , but irritating.



the job list never really seems to end........

[SturdyHSV]

Just chiming in to say love the thread, really like the car (except the red bits ) and really like the fact you're using it and modifying it.

Couple of questions as you at least do a good impression of knowing what you're on about, is the 10W60 based on the expectation that you're going to see high oil temps, so you want the oil to survive and there still be decent pressure at 130*? As I assume the engine probably has bearing clearances and such expecting something thinner like a 10w30 or something? Just curious really for my own education

Also, with the higher cornering loads from finally getting some decent tyres etc., are you concerned about oil starvation in some of the long high G corners? Or is the car dry sumped and I've missed that? I don't remember if they came dry sumped from the factory.

Thanks for taking the time to do the updates, very much enjoy your tone / attitude as well

[IainWhy]

SturdyHSV said:

Just chiming in to say love the thread, really like the car (except the red bits ) and really like the fact you're using it and modifying it.

Couple of questions as you at least do a good impression of knowing what you're on about, is the 10W60 based on the expectation that you're going to see high oil temps, so you want the oil to survive and there still be decent pressure at 130*? As I assume the engine probably has bearing clearances and such expecting something thinner like a 10w30 or something? Just curious really for my own education

Also, with the higher cornering loads from finally getting some decent tyres etc., are you concerned about oil starvation in some of the long high G corners? Or is the car dry sumped and I've missed that? I don't remember if they came dry sumped from the factory.

Thanks for taking the time to do the updates, very much enjoy your tone / attitude as well

Thanks dude, the red bits are a bit marmite, they literally are just a copy of the standard GT4 livery but not to everyone's taste, i dont really like boring coloured cars so they are in some ways a stopgap between now and if i ever decide to get it wrapped or even painted.

Oil wise, as you know this is one of those never ending topics, but in this case is less adventurous than you would think. I run 10-60 in all the track cars i have, largely because they are all bmw's and use step less vanos, the 10-60 keeps the bearings in them as it has a good shear film at high pressure and high load and because they are mostly old tat (90's m3's) if the oil gets too thin you find that the VVT essentially just doesn't work properly as its driven by a 100 bar oil pump into actuators, when the oil thins out not only do the rods tend to bay window the block but the vanos wont make the right pressure to actuate the cam.

On the aston, factory spec is 10-60, which if for me at least convenient, as i have a barrel of it, the cynic in me suspects that they run this also to keep the rods on the inside, for most duties i would think a 40 would be adequate and give better power and efficiency, but who can be bothered switching oil grades by use? Despite it probably being a good idea.

As to cornering loads, for once, no, the car is fully drysumped from factory (its a very confused car) its onre of the reasons it takes 10ltrs oil oil to do a change! that said on the 3.0 m3 i just use a later evo twin pickup sump and use a later evo head with bigger return drains and have not seen any issues. On the z4 we dont even do that, just a baffle and an oil pump tensioner and that thing has had some real abuse including running on slicks

[SturdyHSV]

Appreciate the thorough response, cheers. As you say, interesting the factory spec is 10w60, agreed I'd have expected something lighter in the name of efficiency but I suppose they figured what you'd save on fuel you'd spend on rods

Will look forward to seeing what you do with the oil cooler ducting etc. :thumbsup:

[Jhonno]

I was going to make a similar comment to Sturdy.. Maybe thinner oil might help temps! 5W-50 maybe, less pressure = less heat.

Great write up again though. Enjoyable read.

• Edit*

Ah.. Factory spec is 10W-60! Surprising!

[IainWhy]

SturdyHSV said:

Appreciate the thorough response, cheers. As you say, interesting the factory spec is 10w60, agreed I'd have expected something lighter in the name of efficiency but I suppose they figured what you'd save on fuel you'd spend on rods

Will look forward to seeing what you do with the oil cooler ducting etc. :thumbsup:

Yea, i am being a bit less revealing than perhaps i should in the name of not getting too nerdy here, not to mention i cant substantiate all of my comments, but whatever.

These engines were built under ford ownership but i think cosworth did most of the work. the original engine design (and the first 1000 cars) came with arrow rods, likely because of cost (or production capacity but i doubt it) these were changed to sintered rods, I dont think there is anything actually wrong with sintered rods but they also came with a move to tangless and rather basic bearings. As i understand it (and believe) the engine had already failed fords torture tests (running the thing flat out from cold for 100,000 miles or something.

As a result they dropped the rpm limit down a bit to keep the longevity of the engine. this is substantiated by a few things, big power gainz when you rev it harder and the fact that the inlet runner lengths are shorter than optimum for the stock rpm (so i believe) frankly the entire inlet is pretty far from what i would regard as optimal but thats another story, and maybe another plan..

Either way the engine was slightly hamstrung in the RPM game to keep the inside bits on the inside. Now there are a range of ways to look at that, the first being that no other "exotic" would put the engine through that kind of testing, and that actually if you have a functioning brain you don't cane the life out of the car before its ready, and you run to a more aggressive maintenance schedule to keep things in good order. so you can afford to run the car harder, however seeing temperatures in the 130's is a bit more than i would like so i am using the car a bit more conservatively than i would otherwise do. there is a fair bit more HP in the upper end that i am only using occasionally (current redline is 7800rpm but i am shifting is at 7 ish) on the basis that your going nowhere fast if the insides are all over the road.

The 4.7's double down on the problem using a crappier bearing, with a longer rod, hence why they seem to pop more frequently.

Jhonno said:

I was going to make a similar comment to Sturdy.. Maybe thinner oil might help temps! 5W-50 maybe, less pressure = less heat.

Great write up again though. Enjoyable read.

• Edit*

Ah.. Factory spec is 10W-60! Surprising!

Glad your enjoying it dude I generally agree on the oil, though i would say its less pressure and more flow in that the better flow rate would mean higher velocity through the cooler so more heat exchanged, the issue i have is that at these temperatures 60 really does still have a good strong shear film to protect a slightly vulnerable bottom end. My concern at the moment is that the stock stat is simply not closing properly and as such the flow through the cooler is never that high, if i can get some confidence that it would actually use the flow i would be more tempted to give say a 10-50 a shot and see how it looked, that said 10-60 doesnt seem too strange to me as its factory fill on bot the e46 and e90 M3's for pretty much the same reasons!

Sorry for the long and super nerdy post!

[SturdyHSV]

IainWhy said:

Sorry for the long and super nerdy post!

No no, keep going, I'm almost there...

Love the nerdy st, so appreciate the dip in to the dark side, really interesting to hear about the early engines etc., I had no idea.

My experience lies with LS engines so you're talking 5W30 typically there, hence the 10W60 sounding like treacle to me, and also hence asking about the sustained cornering G, as without a sump baffle the LS's can suffer from oil starvation.

Also, on the subject of runner length, here's some numbers for a 6.2 LS with a cam in it, and some pictures.





Some remarkable losses there just with the runner length, all within the same manifold! I have a ported FAST102 with the long runners on my 402 LS, and it carries the power flat from 6500 - 7000 rpm, so it'd be a very different build for me for even the medium length runners to be worthwhile!

Edited by SturdyHSV on Friday 25th August 17:32

[IainWhy]

SturdyHSV said:

No no, keep going, I'm almost there...

Love the nerdy st, so appreciate the dip in to the dark side, really interesting to hear about the early engines etc., I had no idea.

My experience lies with LS engines so you're talking 5W30 typically there, hence the 10W60 sounding like treacle to me, and also hence asking about the sustained cornering G, as without a sump baffle the LS's can suffer from oil starvation.

Also, on the subject of runner length, here's some numbers for a 6.2 LS with a cam in it, and some pictures.





Some remarkable losses there just with the runner length, all within the same manifold! I have a ported FAST102 with the long runners on my 402 LS, and it carries the power flat from 6500 - 7000 rpm, so it'd be a very different build for me for even the medium length runners to be worthwhile!

Edited by SturdyHSV on Friday 25th August 17:32

Mega

I like you spent an age messing about with the intake tract on the m3, i ended up building my own airbox using kids party balloon and a load of carbon mixed with non linear bell mouthed intakes, i ended up picking up nearly 10 hp just from braking the airbox internally so that it didn't pulse with the engine!




The inlet on the 4.3 is a massive chuck of cast allot so its on the list, its too heavy, too small, too conductive and clearly NFG. The sacked it all off on specials like the gt8 so you know your on the right track.....

[DuncanM]

Love the long posts, and no such thing as too nerdy on here

[B'stard Child]

DuncanM said:

Love the long posts, and no such thing as too nerdy on here

^ WHS makes the "Readers Cars" area of the PH forum very interesting and very informative - always nice to read other people opinions and experiences

On the 10/60W - ran Millers Competition for a lot of miles in my "unsuitable track car" 1985 Opel Monza GSE with a much later but still a boat anchor lump "3.0 24V Senator" engine tuned to 245 bhp with triple sidedrafts - it rev'd to 8000 rpm as result of cam work and a stand alone swing dizzy but the oil cooler circuit and control was rubbish (waxstat type operation) and until I sorted that oil temps were right on the edge of what Millers claimed was acceptable but it stayed together. In the end I put a blank where the wax stat used to be and ran full flow to the cooler and dropped the oil temps to around 120-130 deg C on track under hard use - downside was it took a fair old while to warm up the oil up to 100 deg from cold - you just had to accept that.

The old boat anchor (just before my "ooops moment" that put it painted side down in the gravel trap)



Engine shot



I also run 10/60W in the Lotus - cos that's got an old school boat anchor engine stroked to 3.6 with a couple of turbos nailed on the side and it doesn't like thin oil

[DuncanM]

https://www.audiworld.com/forums/a4-b5-platform-di...

Rightly or wrongly, this link convinced me to run a thinner oil in my Cerbera, 5w30. Caveat being I don't track it.

[IainWhy]

DuncanM said:

Love the long posts, and no such thing as too nerdy on here

Lol, you say that but i can get really weird if the boundaries are not properly managed

B'stard Child said:

^ WHS makes the "Readers Cars" area of the PH forum very interesting and very informative - always nice to read other people opinions and experiences

On the 10/60W - ran Millers Competition for a lot of miles in my "unsuitable track car" 1985 Opel Monza GSE with a much later but still a boat anchor lump "3.0 24V Senator" engine tuned to 245 bhp with triple sidedrafts - it rev'd to 8000 rpm as result of cam work and a stand alone swing dizzy but the oil cooler circuit and control was rubbish (waxstat type operation) and until I sorted that oil temps were right on the edge of what Millers claimed was acceptable but it stayed together. In the end I put a blank where the wax stat used to be and ran full flow to the cooler and dropped the oil temps to around 120-130 deg C on track under hard use - downside was it took a fair old while to warm up the oil up to 100 deg from cold - you just had to accept that.

The old boat anchor (just before my "ooops moment" that put it painted side down in the gravel trap)



Engine shot



I also run 10/60W in the Lotus - cos that's got an old school boat anchor engine stroked to 3.6 with a couple of turbos nailed on the side and it doesn't like thin oil

Love an unsuitable track car! Thicker is generally a safe option provided that your not getting cavitation, yes you lose some efficiency and yes there is a trade of between handling the temperature and creating it in the first place but i have not had any issues running 60 on any of the race cars, and when the bearings have come out they have looked really solid. Do you have a thread for the lotus?

DuncanM said:

https://www.audiworld.com/forums/a4-b5-platform-di...

Rightly or wrongly, this link convinced me to run a thinner oil in my Cerbera, 5w30. Caveat being I don't track it.

I think att that is sound, what it doesnt allow for though the the shear film strength and the realities of shearing down on the oil. the futher apart the numbers the more stretch the base stock has on it and the more likely it will shear down under high load and heat. in direct terms after the first day at spa i was probably using a 10w-54, at the end of zolder 10w-52, as that number drops the absolute resistance to shear under load drops and the more likely you are to pick up a bearing on a crank under high pressure and temperature, this is in effect exactly why BMW M, Ferarri and a number of others use a 60, its a relatively simplle way of giving the bottom end its best chance.

All that said unless your beating the life out of it or in a very hot climate i would use a 40 and enjoy the reduced cost,increased power and efficiency and not lose a wink of sleep. (easy to say when i dont have to pay the bill )

[TotalControl]

Brilliant thread. Thoroughly enjoyed the read op.

[Don1]

Another amazing thread where a skilled person goes off the beaten track and creates something magical. Love it.

[B'stard Child]

IainWhy said:

Love an unsuitable track car!

So did I it did me very nicely for 13 years from memory

IainWhy said:

<snip> Do you have a thread for the lotus?

Nothing like as detailed as your thread - I didn't build it, Lotus did, I haven't modified it (it's high maintenance enough already) and I have a bit of a love hate relationship with it.

It's got a few mentions over the years and PH'rs have spotted it in other Readers Cars threads that I have done - fundamentally it story to tell - one that I'm happy to share but it got labeled a "replica" with some justification in some circles.

You can make your mind up by reading Happy Birthday Elsie - Clicky