Facel Vega HK500. A childhood dream or a nightmare?
Discussion
theadman said:
Rob Walker's car getting all the attention...
P5BNij...thanks for providing additional interest to this thread, it's much appreciated. I have never seen the Rob Walker photo above. It just transports you back to that very laid back and glamorous period.
"Quite thirsty is it, Rob??"P5BNij...thanks for providing additional interest to this thread, it's much appreciated. I have never seen the Rob Walker photo above. It just transports you back to that very laid back and glamorous period.
"I do have my own fuel tanker follow me around, as it happens.. "
theadman said:
Rob Walker's car getting all the attention...
P5BNij...thanks for providing additional interest to this thread, it's much appreciated. I have never seen the Rob Walker photo above. It just transports you back to that very laid back and glamorous period.
I think 'laid back and glamorous' sums it up very nicely, it all seemed so casual going by period photos and film footage, a world away from the pristine, organised the the nearest millimetre beyond belief feeling of (most) modern motorsport. It's fair to say that gone are the days when drivers drove themselves to the circuits all over Europe and drove home again afterwards.P5BNij...thanks for providing additional interest to this thread, it's much appreciated. I have never seen the Rob Walker photo above. It just transports you back to that very laid back and glamorous period.
Here's Ava Gardner driving her FV somewhere in France, probably Paris...
OK, time for the next chapter!
But first, a bit more about the leather and the construction of the interior.
When Howard started taking the seats apart he came across enough evidence to confirm that they had never been touched since leaving the factory. Therefore we had a perfect pattern to match up leathers and colours.
The first port of call was Connolly, who we suspected had supplied the original hides. They were likely to be a product called Vaumol, which was a high quality hide supplied to many of the high end British manufacturers. Jean Daninos, the owner of Facel Vega was an Anglophile and this showed in the British content of his cars. It seems the seats themselves had a very British heart. Howard found these whilst disassembling the seats.
I'm not sure of the derivation of the Pullman name associated with the posh trains of the last century, but is there a connection?
The dates on the seat labels are quite interesting too. One is stamped March and the other April 1958. My car left the factory on 23rd July, so either the building of a car was a long winded process or Facel bought in seat frames in relatively large batches compared to their output. 'Just in time' was obviously not part of the philosophy!
Anyway, back to the leather...
Having received samples of the Vaumol leather grain, it really didn't seem to be a close match for the original. So I approached Bridge of Weir to see what they could supply...and bingo, we had a pretty close match.
In the previous post I explained that the rear seat back was the only piece of the original interior that could be saved. Electing to keep it meant that we had to try and match the grain. Here you can see it works quite well...this was the first time the interior was refitted in 2007.
The large door cards were a potential issue. They are heavy, take a lot of covering and have fibreglass formed door storage bins. The base is plywood...or in my case the base used to be plywood. The bottom third of it had delaminated to become a wobbly mush. Howard recreated the bases using the correct ply cut from sheet. My concern was that the doors have a pronounced curve and the door cards now had no curve at all! Whilst the ply could be coerced to some extent and over time would assume a degree of curve, the fixings were going to have to cope with significant pressure. The big fibreglass bin structures weren't going to help either as they had very little flex.
In the event it hasn't been an issue and I needn't have lost so much sleep! After all, when the car was built the plywood would have been just as flat. It worked then and sure enough, it worked now!
The real conumdrum with tackling the leather at the beginning was the subsequent storage of it whilst the rest of the project caught up. This has proved to be a bit of a headache over the subsequent 20 years, but the quality of Howard's workmanship has stood the test of time and the seats have come through relatively unscathed.
Having bought the car in August 1999 the process of chasing down missing parts took quite a bit of time right through to about 2010. There were some pretty important parts missing:
Door handles, locks and keys. (The ones on the car were Jaguar MkII, probably taken from the stash of MkII parts the previous owner had on that mezzanine floor.)
Windscreen.
Rear lights and trims.
Of these, the windscreen proved to be the biggest surprise.
First, I talked to some of the Facel specialists in Holland, the UK and France. The consensus was that nothing was available. Windscreens were built in batches and the Facel world was between batches. Until enough demand was created another batch wouldn't be produced.
So, I then contacted Triplex aftersales who were very helpful, but couldn't magic up the goods.
My next call was to Pilkington and they were simply amazing. I soon found out that every windscreen past and present has a Eurocode, in just the same manner as RAL codes for paint. The good news didn't stop there...the nice folks at Pilkington then informed me that the code for a clear (non tinted) Facel HK500 screen was 9042 and they could make me one if I was interested. Needless to say I bit their hand off. Then they delivered the final piece of advice...using the code they had supplied, order it through a national windscreen supplier and include fitting in the price. That way, should the windscreen break during fitting I would be covered for a replacement.
I duly ordered the screen through National Windscreens on 25th June 2001 for £400 including fitting. It sat safe and secure at their Banbury depot right through until about 2015, the point at which the Banbury store closed! It was finally fitted in late 2017 (not by National Windscreens). Thankfully, it went in OK as they are renowned for being tricky.
So, on to the door handles. Where on earth can you get them from?
As mentioned in a previous post, the internet was not what it is today in the early 2000s. Finding parts was more about who you knew than about keyboard skills.
Early on, I had come across Mark Morgan who was pivotal in the Facel world in the US. Mark had helped with a few bits himself, but also put me in touch with other people in the States who had Facels or Facel parts. I had also come across the name of Roger Spaulding in conversations on both sides of the Pond. Roger was rather fond of collecting Facels, lots of them. This was his back yard in the late 1990s (picture reproduced from www.facelvega.com)
If anyone had a pair of door handles, Roger would. The only problem was that Roger kept himself to himself. I tried writing to him personally and also tried to contact him through his business. As I suspected, this came to nothing.
In a subsequent conversation with Mark Morgan I mentioned my dilemma. Mark didn't live that far from Roger and I thought there was a reasonable chance they would know each other. The reality was far, far better. When Mark was younger he had actually spent much of his spare time helping Roger at his workshop. Mark said he'd see what he could do.
Sure enough, some time later Mark had a pair of door handles for me which he duly sent in my direction. I awaited their arrival with real anticipation. But, I waited and waited. Mark had obviously posted them but they had just disappeared into the ether.
It was about three months later that I received a demand for payment of duty from HMRC. I've never been happier to oblige! The parcel had been lost somewhere between the port of entry and my regional postal hub.
The rear lights ended up coming from three different continents! This was made more complicated by the fact that the American lights were different from those fitted to European cars. Somehow my car had ended up with a bit of a mixture. Sorting it out involved finding the odd part at the Beaulieu Autojumble in Hampshire, help from Ian Webb and his stash of parts in Cornwall, a few bits from the States found on the early Ebay (which in those days was full of bargains) and finally some lenses from Australia.
It was now the beginning of 2006. Over six years in with some significant expenditure and the car was still a long way from finished.
But first, a bit more about the leather and the construction of the interior.
When Howard started taking the seats apart he came across enough evidence to confirm that they had never been touched since leaving the factory. Therefore we had a perfect pattern to match up leathers and colours.
The first port of call was Connolly, who we suspected had supplied the original hides. They were likely to be a product called Vaumol, which was a high quality hide supplied to many of the high end British manufacturers. Jean Daninos, the owner of Facel Vega was an Anglophile and this showed in the British content of his cars. It seems the seats themselves had a very British heart. Howard found these whilst disassembling the seats.
I'm not sure of the derivation of the Pullman name associated with the posh trains of the last century, but is there a connection?
The dates on the seat labels are quite interesting too. One is stamped March and the other April 1958. My car left the factory on 23rd July, so either the building of a car was a long winded process or Facel bought in seat frames in relatively large batches compared to their output. 'Just in time' was obviously not part of the philosophy!
Anyway, back to the leather...
Having received samples of the Vaumol leather grain, it really didn't seem to be a close match for the original. So I approached Bridge of Weir to see what they could supply...and bingo, we had a pretty close match.
In the previous post I explained that the rear seat back was the only piece of the original interior that could be saved. Electing to keep it meant that we had to try and match the grain. Here you can see it works quite well...this was the first time the interior was refitted in 2007.
The large door cards were a potential issue. They are heavy, take a lot of covering and have fibreglass formed door storage bins. The base is plywood...or in my case the base used to be plywood. The bottom third of it had delaminated to become a wobbly mush. Howard recreated the bases using the correct ply cut from sheet. My concern was that the doors have a pronounced curve and the door cards now had no curve at all! Whilst the ply could be coerced to some extent and over time would assume a degree of curve, the fixings were going to have to cope with significant pressure. The big fibreglass bin structures weren't going to help either as they had very little flex.
In the event it hasn't been an issue and I needn't have lost so much sleep! After all, when the car was built the plywood would have been just as flat. It worked then and sure enough, it worked now!
The real conumdrum with tackling the leather at the beginning was the subsequent storage of it whilst the rest of the project caught up. This has proved to be a bit of a headache over the subsequent 20 years, but the quality of Howard's workmanship has stood the test of time and the seats have come through relatively unscathed.
Having bought the car in August 1999 the process of chasing down missing parts took quite a bit of time right through to about 2010. There were some pretty important parts missing:
Door handles, locks and keys. (The ones on the car were Jaguar MkII, probably taken from the stash of MkII parts the previous owner had on that mezzanine floor.)
Windscreen.
Rear lights and trims.
Of these, the windscreen proved to be the biggest surprise.
First, I talked to some of the Facel specialists in Holland, the UK and France. The consensus was that nothing was available. Windscreens were built in batches and the Facel world was between batches. Until enough demand was created another batch wouldn't be produced.
So, I then contacted Triplex aftersales who were very helpful, but couldn't magic up the goods.
My next call was to Pilkington and they were simply amazing. I soon found out that every windscreen past and present has a Eurocode, in just the same manner as RAL codes for paint. The good news didn't stop there...the nice folks at Pilkington then informed me that the code for a clear (non tinted) Facel HK500 screen was 9042 and they could make me one if I was interested. Needless to say I bit their hand off. Then they delivered the final piece of advice...using the code they had supplied, order it through a national windscreen supplier and include fitting in the price. That way, should the windscreen break during fitting I would be covered for a replacement.
I duly ordered the screen through National Windscreens on 25th June 2001 for £400 including fitting. It sat safe and secure at their Banbury depot right through until about 2015, the point at which the Banbury store closed! It was finally fitted in late 2017 (not by National Windscreens). Thankfully, it went in OK as they are renowned for being tricky.
So, on to the door handles. Where on earth can you get them from?
As mentioned in a previous post, the internet was not what it is today in the early 2000s. Finding parts was more about who you knew than about keyboard skills.
Early on, I had come across Mark Morgan who was pivotal in the Facel world in the US. Mark had helped with a few bits himself, but also put me in touch with other people in the States who had Facels or Facel parts. I had also come across the name of Roger Spaulding in conversations on both sides of the Pond. Roger was rather fond of collecting Facels, lots of them. This was his back yard in the late 1990s (picture reproduced from www.facelvega.com)
If anyone had a pair of door handles, Roger would. The only problem was that Roger kept himself to himself. I tried writing to him personally and also tried to contact him through his business. As I suspected, this came to nothing.
In a subsequent conversation with Mark Morgan I mentioned my dilemma. Mark didn't live that far from Roger and I thought there was a reasonable chance they would know each other. The reality was far, far better. When Mark was younger he had actually spent much of his spare time helping Roger at his workshop. Mark said he'd see what he could do.
Sure enough, some time later Mark had a pair of door handles for me which he duly sent in my direction. I awaited their arrival with real anticipation. But, I waited and waited. Mark had obviously posted them but they had just disappeared into the ether.
It was about three months later that I received a demand for payment of duty from HMRC. I've never been happier to oblige! The parcel had been lost somewhere between the port of entry and my regional postal hub.
The rear lights ended up coming from three different continents! This was made more complicated by the fact that the American lights were different from those fitted to European cars. Somehow my car had ended up with a bit of a mixture. Sorting it out involved finding the odd part at the Beaulieu Autojumble in Hampshire, help from Ian Webb and his stash of parts in Cornwall, a few bits from the States found on the early Ebay (which in those days was full of bargains) and finally some lenses from Australia.
It was now the beginning of 2006. Over six years in with some significant expenditure and the car was still a long way from finished.
theadman said:
I'm not sure of the derivation of the Pullman name associated with the posh trains of the last century, but is there a connection?
On the other hand, when I googled the phrase Lasting Luxury & Comfort I got these hits:
a) https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.89940461...
N.V. Pullman-Matrassenfabriek
Zwijndrecht (Holland)
Note that the enamel sign is dated 1940-1945.
Pullman-Matrassenfabriek still exists. Their website, Pullman.nl, says that what made the seats and mattresses so nice in Pullman's trains was the spring structure, based on three springs one inside another (that's what I understood, more or less, from the Google translation of their website).
So definitely, yes, there is a Pullman (railways) link to that seat cushion design.
b) http://www.ipaustralia.com.au/applicant/pullman-sp...
Note the "drawing" section, showing a similar logo (but no visible tagline), is stamped "transferred from class 41 (1905-1948 ACT)":
http://static.ipaustralia.com.au/store3/1/01/10110...
Applicant: PULLMAN SPRING-FILLED Co Ltd,
which, in turn was a name registered by Pullmaflex UK Ltd, formerly Pullman Flexolators Ltd.
https://www.trademarkia.com/uk/trademark-UK0000056...
Pullmaflex UK Ltd are still active:
https://find-and-update.company-information.servic...
Google lists a couple of patents for automotive seating by Pullman Flexolators/Pullmaflex.
It would be interesting to know if the logo and tagline were created by the original railway people or by its affiliate(s) in Britain. They seem to be pretty old.
Back to your story... the more you tell us, the more fascinating it gets. Please carry on!
Edited by Mefistofele on Wednesday 9th November 02:02
BerrisfordMotors said:
. Similar situation here, owned since 1970,under restoration for 18 years,still not finished,getting there now though??
How I wish I had taken photos of my car as bought. Somehow the day I collected it was fraught with trying to get the car onto a trailer in a tight space and then rushing around trying to find as many bits of the car as possible...they were the proverbial needles in a very large haystack! Pictures were the last thing on my mind in that pre digital age. And to take a picture you still needed a camera and some film!
Long term restorations seem to be a feature of the Facel world! Another person on here has an Excellence that is about 30 years in the making! (How's it going Bob?)
Mefistofele said:
theadman said:
I'm not sure of the derivation of the Pullman name associated with the posh trains of the last century, but is there a connection?
Edited by Mefistofele on Wednesday 9th November 02:02
Thanks for researching this Mefistofele.
Mercdriver said:
Fascinating thread an keep posting please. In your interior picture the roof trim looks like wood? Or is it painted metal like the dash?
A wooden roof lining...now that would be exactly the sort of left field thing Facel would do, particularly if it was really painted metal!Sadly, the truth is rather more mundane. There is no trim present in that picture. What you can see is the brown glue that was applied directly to the underside of the roof. Much of this stuck to the car rather than the leather trim when it was removed.
The original headlining on the HK was quilted leather, with leather trim stuck to the pillars and roof rails around the top of the windows. My car had a Webasto sunroof fitted by the importer early in its life (around 1959/60), so lost its quilted leather and gained a cloth headlining to match the underside of the folding sunroof.
theadman said:
I duly ordered the screen through National Windscreens on 25th June 2001 for £400 including fitting. It sat safe and secure at their Banbury depot right through until about 2015, the point at which the Banbury store closed! It was finally fitted in late 2017 (not by National Windscreens). Thankfully, it went in OK as they are renowned for being tricky.
Seems amazing that it sat around at a supplier for that long without being chucked or broken.The various Managers at National Windscreens would get in touch from time to time, presumably when they did their first stock take as manager. When I explained it was probably safest on their purpose built racks they seemed happy enough to keep it for me. All that mattered was that the paperwork tied up and TBH they couldn't have been more helpful.
theadman said:
Mefistofele said:
theadman said:
I'm not sure of the derivation of the Pullman name associated with the posh trains of the last century, but is there a connection?
Edited by Mefistofele on Wednesday 9th November 02:02
Thanks for researching this Mefistofele.
outnumbered said:
theadman said:
I duly ordered the screen through National Windscreens on 25th June 2001 for £400 including fitting. It sat safe and secure at their Banbury depot right through until about 2015, the point at which the Banbury store closed! It was finally fitted in late 2017 (not by National Windscreens). Thankfully, it went in OK as they are renowned for being tricky.
Seems amazing that it sat around at a supplier for that long without being chucked or broken.
Loving this thread.. such an interesting journey too..
Well, I never thought we'd get to 100 posts on a car as obscure as a Facel Vega. Thank you everyone for your interest so far.
You might be wondering why I've stuck at this project for so long?
If the car in question had been a Hillman Minx or a Morris Marina I surely wouldn't. Any Facel Vega is pretty unusual. In round numbers about 2000 were made between 1954 and 1964 at which point the company became insolvent (figures taken from Martin Buckley's excellent book). Around half of these were the four cylinder cars with the problematic twin cam engine produced for Facel by Pont a Mousson. In simplistic terms it was warranty claims on this engine that sent the company under.
The HK500 is actually one of the more numerous models; 490 were produced between May 1958 and May 1961 when the baton was passed on to the fabulous Facel II. Of these 490, amazingly 105 were right hand drive. This is purely down to the fact that the UK had a very active Importer who wasn't afraid to take the fight to Aston, Ferrari and Maserati.
So, as one of 105 my car has some significance, but it doesn't end there. You see, my car had a small part to play in the evolution of the HK500 and became the first UK demonstrator. In its first two years it was ragged by the great and the good up and down the country as they put it through its paces prior to placing an order.
How did this all come about?
Well, George Abecassis (of HWM fame) had an Aston franchise in Walton on Thames. His friend Lance Macklin was working for Facel and via that connection George imported a couple of FVS models for customers. The FVS was the forerunner of the HK500. The cars were certainly quick, but loosing speed was a problem with the drum brakes fitted and the Robogel bolt on wire wheels were an acquired taste.
Macklin persuaded Abecassis to come over to Paris to meet Jean Daninos, the 'Patron' of Facel Vega with a view to setting up a more formal importing arrangement. An agreement was reached but it was dependent upon Facel upgrading the new HK500 to decent brakes and wire wheels.
Abecassis imported a couple of early HK500s with drum brakes and sold them easily. He then ordered another batch. By this time he was getting a little impatient that there was no progress with the promised disc brakes and suggested to Facel that he could do the development work for them, which was duly agreed.
One of the cars in that second batch had the troublesome drums removed and various disc brakes were tried. It was found that the discs and calipers from a MkIX Jaguar worked well. At the same time the car was converted to run on Aston Martin DB MkIII wire wheels. It was then signed off by Facel and its specification became the standard for subsequent HK500s (until the solid knock on Rudge wheels became available as an option).
As the car had been run as a development vehicle, it was deemed that it could not be sold as a new car, so it was put to use by HWM as their demonstrator and used by George Abecassis as his personal transport.
This is the car that I had purchased in bits in Kettering on that hot August day in 1999. Here it is some time during 1959 or 1960 performing its demo duties...
When I bought the car, I noticed it had a rather odd chassis number; HK D2. I thought that maybe the D was for droite as in right hand drive. This proved not to be the case.
HK chassis numbers started at A1 and then ran to A9, then B1 to 9 and so on. So my car was the 29th produced by my reckoning and I now know that the first RHD was HK C4 and mine was the fifth. Someone from Belgium who owns HK D1, the car before mine, kindly sent through a copy of the factory production records.
From this you can see the batch of cars George Abecassis ordered, with my car being black, with a black roof and red leather.
My car was finally registered in October 1958 and in February 1959 it appeared in a 'first impressions' test in Autocar. This is a photo of an old photocopy, so apologies for the quality.
Autocar picked the car again, this time as a used car test in March 1961. In two years it had completed 49000 hard miles.
However, it appears to have stood the test of time remarkably well.
To finish this post, here's a picture of the car that was found on Flickr and subsequently posted on the French Facel forum. I believe this is Aintree, but if anyone knows better please let me know. I also believe the man in the picture is George Abecassis and his wife, Angela nee Brown, daughter of David Brown (as in Aston Martin).
A few years ago I was in correspondence with a gentleman who worked on the Facel business at HWM. He remembered my car and said it had a red roof. During the restoration there had been absolutely no evidence of this in the layers of paint we removed, so I was inclined to think his memory was playing tricks. When confronted with this photo and the one I posted further up the page I had to eat humble pie!
Apparently the roof was painted red at the same time as the Webasto was fitted. George Abecassis thought it would make the car more 'racy' and potentially that would convert into greater sales! Whether it worked or not, we will never know. However, as mentioned before, a remarkable percentage of the HK500 production came to the UK.
More of the car's history next time...
You might be wondering why I've stuck at this project for so long?
If the car in question had been a Hillman Minx or a Morris Marina I surely wouldn't. Any Facel Vega is pretty unusual. In round numbers about 2000 were made between 1954 and 1964 at which point the company became insolvent (figures taken from Martin Buckley's excellent book). Around half of these were the four cylinder cars with the problematic twin cam engine produced for Facel by Pont a Mousson. In simplistic terms it was warranty claims on this engine that sent the company under.
The HK500 is actually one of the more numerous models; 490 were produced between May 1958 and May 1961 when the baton was passed on to the fabulous Facel II. Of these 490, amazingly 105 were right hand drive. This is purely down to the fact that the UK had a very active Importer who wasn't afraid to take the fight to Aston, Ferrari and Maserati.
So, as one of 105 my car has some significance, but it doesn't end there. You see, my car had a small part to play in the evolution of the HK500 and became the first UK demonstrator. In its first two years it was ragged by the great and the good up and down the country as they put it through its paces prior to placing an order.
How did this all come about?
Well, George Abecassis (of HWM fame) had an Aston franchise in Walton on Thames. His friend Lance Macklin was working for Facel and via that connection George imported a couple of FVS models for customers. The FVS was the forerunner of the HK500. The cars were certainly quick, but loosing speed was a problem with the drum brakes fitted and the Robogel bolt on wire wheels were an acquired taste.
Macklin persuaded Abecassis to come over to Paris to meet Jean Daninos, the 'Patron' of Facel Vega with a view to setting up a more formal importing arrangement. An agreement was reached but it was dependent upon Facel upgrading the new HK500 to decent brakes and wire wheels.
Abecassis imported a couple of early HK500s with drum brakes and sold them easily. He then ordered another batch. By this time he was getting a little impatient that there was no progress with the promised disc brakes and suggested to Facel that he could do the development work for them, which was duly agreed.
One of the cars in that second batch had the troublesome drums removed and various disc brakes were tried. It was found that the discs and calipers from a MkIX Jaguar worked well. At the same time the car was converted to run on Aston Martin DB MkIII wire wheels. It was then signed off by Facel and its specification became the standard for subsequent HK500s (until the solid knock on Rudge wheels became available as an option).
As the car had been run as a development vehicle, it was deemed that it could not be sold as a new car, so it was put to use by HWM as their demonstrator and used by George Abecassis as his personal transport.
This is the car that I had purchased in bits in Kettering on that hot August day in 1999. Here it is some time during 1959 or 1960 performing its demo duties...
When I bought the car, I noticed it had a rather odd chassis number; HK D2. I thought that maybe the D was for droite as in right hand drive. This proved not to be the case.
HK chassis numbers started at A1 and then ran to A9, then B1 to 9 and so on. So my car was the 29th produced by my reckoning and I now know that the first RHD was HK C4 and mine was the fifth. Someone from Belgium who owns HK D1, the car before mine, kindly sent through a copy of the factory production records.
From this you can see the batch of cars George Abecassis ordered, with my car being black, with a black roof and red leather.
My car was finally registered in October 1958 and in February 1959 it appeared in a 'first impressions' test in Autocar. This is a photo of an old photocopy, so apologies for the quality.
Autocar picked the car again, this time as a used car test in March 1961. In two years it had completed 49000 hard miles.
However, it appears to have stood the test of time remarkably well.
To finish this post, here's a picture of the car that was found on Flickr and subsequently posted on the French Facel forum. I believe this is Aintree, but if anyone knows better please let me know. I also believe the man in the picture is George Abecassis and his wife, Angela nee Brown, daughter of David Brown (as in Aston Martin).
A few years ago I was in correspondence with a gentleman who worked on the Facel business at HWM. He remembered my car and said it had a red roof. During the restoration there had been absolutely no evidence of this in the layers of paint we removed, so I was inclined to think his memory was playing tricks. When confronted with this photo and the one I posted further up the page I had to eat humble pie!
Apparently the roof was painted red at the same time as the Webasto was fitted. George Abecassis thought it would make the car more 'racy' and potentially that would convert into greater sales! Whether it worked or not, we will never know. However, as mentioned before, a remarkable percentage of the HK500 production came to the UK.
More of the car's history next time...
Edited by theadman on Wednesday 9th November 23:41
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