Jaguar F-Pace Non Runner

[skwdenyer]

I-am-the-reverend said:

The liner has slipped down, and the lowest piston ring has caught it and dragged it down.

What an absolute pile of st.

British engineering at its best. If JLR designed a pushbike it would have square wheels.

New liner and piston, get it running and down the road.

I think the biggest problem is that Ecsy bought this car from somebody who'd already tried bodging it back together. What has failed here, seemingly, is a further part of the inherited unknown work. Had Ecsy started with a failed - but still factory - engine, I doubt we'd be reading this today. And maybe no attempt would have been made at a block / liner repair, and instead a short engine fitted.

Engines that can't be rebored are nothing new. Nikasil-coate bores, for instance: reboring is either sleeving, or in some cases carbide coating, but neither is trivial.

There's no doubt that the original engine had weaknesses - failures are well-documented. So I'm not at all defending the original JLR design of this. But unless there's a long history of slipped liners on this engine, it does seem plausible that the liner problem stems from the pre-Ecsy work of unknown (but, from the evidence of this thread, poor) quality.

As for what to do now, the question is what's the head like now? I suspect at the very least the valves on that cylinder will be damaged, but if the head is damaged (as seems likely) then there'd be quite a lot of work - and cost - to get this up and running again. Also, how are the liners held? Is there a lip onto which the liner sits, or is it just pressed in place? If the former, has the block failed?

[QBee]

My TVR engine has liners fitted (after market), but they have a rim to hold them up. They are referred to as top hat liners. Costs about £1000 to have 8 fitted. Why do these just appear to be push fit?
Just interested, I am no engineer.

[Rough101]

Sorry mate, that’s a pissa.

It did sound a bit ominous as we had an early Ingenium and whilst it needed an oil change every 4000 miles due to dilution, it was pretty quiet for a 4 cylinder diesel.

[Maxdecel]

10K of use would suggest the liners were correctly fitted, this site suggests "We have found the fuel injectors fitted to the 2.0 Ingenium engines have a tendency to over-fuel. This simply means the injector itself is injecting too much fuel inside the cylinder, so produces an extreme amount of heat" - https://dieselheads.co.uk/our-engines/jaguar/jagua...

Injector failure ?

Excess heat expands the piston making it partially seize dragging the liner down the bore, next rotation the compression ring jumps out when passing the top of the liner ripping off the piston crown as it travels down ?
FUEL INJECTOR CONSEQUENCE
Over-fuelling fuel injectors we find in the 2.0 Ingenium engine cause the piston to melt and reduce because of the extremely high heat it is subjected to. So of course due it’s reduction in size and change of shape the piston is rendered useless as there is no compression or seal in the cylinder. In addition to this it is common for the cylinder liners to incur damage. A common audible recognition of this failure is a knocking engine.

Not quite the same but a source of excess heat, here the liner submitted before the piston ?

[Megaflow]

That is a very strange failure after 10k, normally if a liner was going to fail, it would fail pretty much straight away.

It would be interesting to see the bottom of the liner, and the liner and piston if they get removed. But I suspect that won't happen, very little benefit to be had in reality.

The injector theory could hold some weight.



ETA: Looking back at the pictures again, and the what Mrs Escy has said, what does the underside of the head look like? Im going to speculate it is utterly ruined, I suspect the piston failed, got mashed around in side the bore and eventually took the liner with it, which is what caused it to stop. If the liner moved, if it has made conact with the crank it would stop pretty quickly I'd think.

Edited by Megaflow on Saturday 20th April 18:11

[MDifficult]

sdh2903 said:

Stripping and binning that car off will be quite cathartic. Although a loss it's definitely the best option. What a complete and utter turd of an engine.

Not sure I’d find that cathartic? Having a pull apart an otherwise loved and enjoyed car, piece by piece, over weeks and months, watching it slowly decompose on your driveway.. feels like the opposite of cathartic. Feels like having a daily reminder of something painful.

Get it sold as it sits, write it off as an adventure, enjoy the BMW, focus energy on something much more positive.

[Cambs_Stuart]

Sorry to hear about the engine's demise. Hope you dispose of it quickly and get something for it

[andburg]

Yeah that’s toast!

I guess problem is getting shot now even wbac wouldn’t really want to touch it. Delete thread, no idea why it stopped loft faith blah blah auction?

[Om]

Sorry for your loss.

I have otherwise enjoyed reading your fight with the Jaguar gods. They are not kind.

[Accelebrate]

Given how much practice you’ve had, a £3k replacement engine and selling seems like the quickest way to get it out of your life whilst minimising your losses?

[M4cruiser]

Well, it's been an interesting read. I have no idea why it failed, but if your "piston broke" again, perhaps don't spend so much on alcohol ...

[Mikebentley]

That piston looks like a Yorkshire pudding.

[D_G]

Maxdecel said:

10K of use would suggest the liners were correctly fitted, this site suggests "We have found the fuel injectors fitted to the 2.0 Ingenium engines have a tendency to over-fuel. This simply means the injector itself is injecting too much fuel inside the cylinder, so produces an extreme amount of heat" - https://dieselheads.co.uk/our-engines/jaguar/jagua...

Injector failure ?

Excess heat expands the piston making it partially seize dragging the liner down the bore, next rotation the compression ring jumps out when passing the top of the liner ripping off the piston crown as it travels down ?
FUEL INJECTOR CONSEQUENCE
Over-fuelling fuel injectors we find in the 2.0 Ingenium engine cause the piston to melt and reduce because of the extremely high heat it is subjected to. So of course due it’s reduction in size and change of shape the piston is rendered useless as there is no compression or seal in the cylinder. In addition to this it is common for the cylinder liners to incur damage. A common audible recognition of this failure is a knocking engine.

Not quite the same but a source of excess heat, here the liner submitted before the piston ?

This sounds like the most plausible explanation, with that kind of catastrophic damage it'll be difficult to really know I think.
Breaking a car is a real ballache so I'd think carefully about it rather than just out it as it is.

[Escy]

skwdenyer said:

As for what to do now, the question is what's the head like now? I suspect at the very least the valves on that cylinder will be damaged, but if the head is damaged (as seems likely) then there'd be quite a lot of work - and cost - to get this up and running again. Also, how are the liners held? Is there a lip onto which the liner sits, or is it just pressed in place? If the former, has the block failed?

The head is damaged where all the bits have been bouncing around and the valves are bent on cylinder 1.

Looking back at an old picture it doesn't look like there is a lip at the bottom of the bore so it looks like just press fit.

IMG_20230118_215556176_HDR

Maxdecel said:

10K of use would suggest the liners were correctly fitted, this site suggests "We have found the fuel injectors fitted to the 2.0 Ingenium engines have a tendency to over-fuel. This simply means the injector itself is injecting too much fuel inside the cylinder, so produces an extreme amount of heat" - https://dieselheads.co.uk/our-engines/jaguar/jagua...

Injector failure ?

Not quite the same but a source of excess heat, here the liner submitted before the piston ?

Sounds plausible. The injectors were tested when the last guy had a go at re-building it.

When looking at the pistons and exhaust ports, cylinder 4 looked like it might have been the one guilty for an oil consumption issue. If I had to guess which one ran rich I'd be going with 4 and not 1.

IMG_20240420_174250559

IMG_20240420_174241848_HDR

Megaflow said:

That is a very strange failure after 10k, normally if a liner was going to fail, it would fail pretty much straight away.

It would be interesting to see the bottom of the liner, and the liner and piston if they get removed. But I suspect that won't happen, very little benefit to be had in reality.

The injector theory could hold some weight.



ETA: Looking back at the pictures again, and the what Mrs Escy has said, what does the underside of the head look like? Im going to speculate it is utterly ruined, I suspect the piston failed, got mashed around in side the bore and eventually took the liner with it, which is what caused it to stop. If the liner moved, if it has made conact with the crank it would stop pretty quickly I'd think.

Edited by Megaflow on Saturday 20th April 18:11

I will strip it right down as I want to see if the crank is salvageable. I can't get a full rotation of the bottom end so either the rod or the crank is touching the dropped liner.

MDifficult said:

Not sure I’d find that cathartic? Having a pull apart an otherwise loved and enjoyed car, piece by piece, over weeks and months, watching it slowly decompose on your driveway.. feels like the opposite of cathartic. Feels like having a daily reminder of something painful.

Get it sold as it sits, write it off as an adventure, enjoy the BMW, focus energy on something much more positive.

I agree, it won't be cathartic, it'll be horrible. We both love the car and it'll likely be getting replaced with something older and less nice so pulling it apart won't be something I enjoy.

Selling it as it sits isn't really an option, I don't want to put it back together as it is. I'll either break it or buy another engine for it,

D_G said:

Breaking a car is a real ballache so I'd think carefully about it rather than just out it as it is.

It's not my first rodeo. The BMW we are using now was destined for the chopping block and the Punto I posted earlier went the same way.

[jimmyjimjim]

Escy said:

Cylinder head off. It's not looking good.

IMG_20240420_125050750

I will apologise for this, as I feel for you greatly in the situation you've found yourself in, especially after so much work, and the roller coaster ride you've given us - but I pretty much pissed myself laughing at 'it's not looking good' and seeing the most grenaded piston I've ever seen.

Sorry. I hope you can break it quickly.

[Mikebentley]

Would a new lump not be the best way of salvaging something from this?
You and the wife both really like the car and as you say everything else work. New engine and keep forever would be my plan. Good luck with whatever you do.

[Gtom]

The cheapest 2016 F pace R-sport on eBay at the minute is £13k, surely it’s got to be worth chucking an engine in it even if just to punt it on?

[sdh2903]

Mikebentley said:

Would a new lump not be the best way of salvaging something from this?
You and the wife both really like the car and as you say everything else work. New engine and keep forever would be my plan. Good luck with whatever you do.

That would be all well and good, but that engine is a turd, any replacement engine would just be another unknown turd. You would always be listening for any slight noise or be paranoid it's going to go pop again. You don't need that from a family daily. Swap the lump to punt it wouldn't be a bad idea, but not to keep.

Am amazed the Op and his wife still maintain their love for the thing. I hate it and it's not even mine

Edited by sdh2903 on Sunday 21st April 09:04

[Church of Noise]

That's horrid Escy...

I'm in the 'find another engine, install and sell on' camp...
As much as your wife and you like the car, even with another engine, I'm not sure you'll ever be comfortable with the car again (but that's just an assumption based on how I would feel about it - I surely wouldn't have had 'my' company car F-pace back after it self detonated...).

Good news on the BMW though indeed.

[Escy]

Mikebentley said:

Would a new lump not be the best way of salvaging something from this?
You and the wife both really like the car and as you say everything else work. New engine and keep forever would be my plan. Good luck with whatever you do.

This is what I'm leaning towards. Suck it up and spend the money.

Gtom said:

The cheapest 2016 F pace R-sport on eBay at the minute is £13k, surely it’s got to be worth chucking an engine in it even if just to punt it on?

I might have been undervaluing it, based on seeing a few cheap ones come up for sale, I hadn't read the adverts so maybe they had issues. When looking around my car is a better spec than most I see (pan roof, heated rear seats, larger sat nav screen, digital dash). Plus it's got fairly new tyres, new battery, wheel alignment done recently, all the potential DPF trouble taken care of, recent gearbox service.

sdh2903 said:

That would be all well and good, but that engine is a turd, any replacement engine would just be another unknown turd. You would always be listening for any slight noise or be paranoid it's going to go pop again. You don't need that from a family daily. Swap the lump to punt it wouldn't be a bad idea, but not to keep.

Am amazed the Op and his wife still maintain their love for the thing. I hate it and it's not even mine

Most of our family cars have been 10-15 years old and in the 3-5k value. This felt a significant step up.

Church of Noise said:

That's horrid Escy...

I'm in the 'find another engine, install and sell on' camp...
As much as your wife and you like the car, even with another engine, I'm not sure you'll ever be comfortable with the car again (but that's just an assumption based on how I would feel about it - I surely wouldn't have had 'my' company car F-pace back after it self detonated...).

Good news on the BMW though indeed.

The problem with fixing it and selling it on is I crystalise the loss. Once I've sold a car we both like that's running perfectly I'd buy something else, likely older and an unknown quality in the hope it proves more reliable in the long term. I'd probably be looking at around a 10k budget, I don't think I'm going to find something I'd prefer over the F-Pace for that money.