Jaguar F-Pace Non Runner

[QBee]

Back about 75 pages ago, I have the vaguest memory of reading that JLR sorted the problem with the ingenium engine from about 2018 or 2019 onwards.
This only stuck in my memory because no sooner had we got into this disaster epic than a good friend sold her XC90 and bought a 2019 Jaguar E pace diesel.

Am I right, or talking round objects?
Ecsy said, If I can remember back a few hours correctly, that the engine he has located is from a 2019 car?

[MrBig]

I'm always amazed how much skill and aptitude folks like Escy have to be dicking around at this level with modern cars. A cursory glance under the bonnet of anything made in the last 10 years scares the crap out of me.

Have to say, I'm now quite pleased my Velar's electrical issues made me palm it back to the dealer in disgust before it started any engine antics!

[President Merkin]

Nothing much has changed in 100 years on cars. They're still cranks, cylinder heads & pistons. The only real difference now is they're draped in sensors. The basic principles of working on them are unchanged,

[Om]

Excellent. The thread lives! Even if the engine doesn't...

[B'stard Child]

President Merkin said:

Nothing much has changed in 100 years on cars. They're still cranks, cylinder heads & pistons. The only real difference now is they're draped in sensors. The basic principles of working on them are unchanged,

Whilst I agree it's not just the "proliferation of sensors and control) there are things that have changed in the last 100 years.....

1) The quality of the components (the penny clipping to the 100th degree)

2) The output per litre on compression ignition engines used to be ~50% of an equivilent petrol engine - now they are on par (force feeding engines has done that but the increased heat build up needs to be managed)

3) Huge increases in service intervals claimed to be down to "improvements in tolerances and oil quality that are really to "be competitive from a lease costs perspective"

4) Emissions equipment to "clean them up" Catalysts, DPF's, Ad-Blue

I know the thread is about a JLR product but it used to be said that Mercedes built a car and then priced it - from late 1990's they priced a car and then built it to that price and it shows in the cars.

JLR is no different to any other manufacturer from that perspective.....

[President Merkin]

That is all very interesting, however with space to work, a reasonable set of tools & a hoist, it is just as possible to replace an engine today as it would have been in 1950. That's the sole point.

[I-am-the-reverend]

Escy said:

What really sweetens the deal is this comes with the gearbox (8 speed auto, same as mine)

I don't think you can use the gearbox as is. The 8HP is coded to the car it came from and whilst not impossible, is a pain in the arse involving expensive diagnostics to make work. You could probably fit the ECU/mechatronics unit from yours but if your existing gearbox works, I'd just use that.

[QBee]

I-am-the-reverend said:

Escy said:

What really sweetens the deal is this comes with the gearbox (8 speed auto, same as mine)

I don't think you can use the gearbox as is. The 8HP is coded to the car it came from and whilst not impossible, is a pain in the arse involving expensive diagnostics to make work. You could probably fit the ECU/mechatronics unit from yours but if your existing gearbox works, I'd just use that.

Whereas (see the comments about complexity above) 30 years ago you would just fit the gearbox and it worked.
I had to scrap a 2005 Volvo XC 90 because warning lights and a failure in the CANBUST network (my name for it) made passing the MOT test economically impossible.

[Stick Legs]

I’ve just read through the last few pages & the amount of comments the go something along the lines of ‘I wouldn’t put up with it, get rid asap’ amuse me.

The people who say that probably wouldn’t have bought it in the first place.

Escy has a plan.

I am sure he’s just fine deciding how he fits the engine & box. As an aside the ‘coding’ on JLR stuff is amazing tolerant. As someone who has removed fairly large components from one JLR product to another it amazes me how little you need to actually code.

BMW & VW are far worse in this regard.

[Jhonno]

I'd be fitting the engine and binning that off as quick as possible.

[Magnum 475]

President Merkin said:

That is all very interesting, however with space to work, a reasonable set of tools & a hoist, it is just as possible to replace an engine today as it would have been in 1950. That's the sole point.

This was the engine bay of the car I first owned / worked on (designed in 1959):



Everything simple, accessible, and easy to work on. I can't even bleed the brakes on my cars now without pluging a computer in - changing half of the components requires something to be coded....

Add emissions tech, forced induction, assorted electronics, and diagnosing a problem becomes much more complex, fixing it another thing entirely. Complexity has increased to the point that far fewer people today will attempt to fix issues with their own cars than was the case in the 80s / 90s.

Personally, I really admire the OP for the work he's managed to do to this Jag, although it has convinced me to not buy anything made by JLR.

[Monkeylegend]

Magnum 475 said:

This was the engine bay of the car I first owned / worked on (designed in 1959):



Everything simple, accessible, and easy to work on. I can't even bleed the brakes on my cars now without pluging a computer in - changing half of the components requires something to be coded....

Add emissions tech, forced induction, assorted electronics, and diagnosing a problem becomes much more complex, fixing it another thing entirely. Complexity has increased to the point that far fewer people today will attempt to fix issues with their own cars than was the case in the 80s / 90s.

Personally, I really admire the OP for the work he's managed to do to this Jag, although it has convinced me to not buy anything made by JLR.

You could stand inside the engine bay on my GT6 and Herald to work on the engine and other bits and bobs.

That looks very Triumph like as well.

[Megaflow]

Escy said:

I've got what's left of the engine out this evening.

IMG_20240422_224002311_HDR

There's loads of replies about what I should do moving forward. I've got a plan. I've found an engine from 2019 F-Pace with 30k miles on. It's 3k so it's the best priced engine I've seen, especially when you take into account the mileage. What really sweetens the deal is this comes with the gearbox (8 speed auto, same as mine), all ancillaries, turbo, even the front diff so I'll have a load of bits to sell on. I've been sent a video of the engine running before it was removed, it sounded as good as a diesel can.

I don't want to count my chickens before it's in my possession. I've got someone going up to collect it for me first thing in the morning tomorrow. Getting that lot into my garage is going to be quite the task as I've got a broken Jaguar in the way!

Providing it has no oil leaks and shows no signs of having been opened up before, I'm leaning towards leaving it all alone, I won't touch the chains, I'll just put it in the hole as is and live happily ever after.

It could be back up and running by the end of the weekend.

Very sensible plan.

I-am-the-reverend said:

Escy said:

What really sweetens the deal is this comes with the gearbox (8 speed auto, same as mine)

I don't think you can use the gearbox as is. The 8HP is coded to the car it came from and whilst not impossible, is a pain in the arse involving expensive diagnostics to make work. You could probably fit the ECU/mechatronics unit from yours but if your existing gearbox works, I'd just use that.

I might have assumed this, but I don’t think he is planning on using the gearbox, his is already 8 speed, but can be sold to recover some cash.

Edited by Megaflow on Tuesday 23 April 17:40

[Speed 3]

I-am-the-reverend said:

Escy said:

What really sweetens the deal is this comes with the gearbox (8 speed auto, same as mine)

I don't think you can use the gearbox as is. The 8HP is coded to the car it came from and whilst not impossible, is a pain in the arse involving expensive diagnostics to make work. You could probably fit the ECU/mechatronics unit from yours but if your existing gearbox works, I'd just use that.

Excuse my ignorance but why is this the case for the gearbox and not the engine ?

[LunarOne]

Jhonno said:

I'd be fitting the engine and binning that off as quick as possible.

Why? It was the bodged engine giving all the trouble - the rest of the car was fine. Now that the engine is gone and not going back in, the car will have every chance of being just as reliable as any other JLR product.

Oh...

[CorradoTDI]

Speed 3 said:

I-am-the-reverend said:

Escy said:

What really sweetens the deal is this comes with the gearbox (8 speed auto, same as mine)

I don't think you can use the gearbox as is. The 8HP is coded to the car it came from and whilst not impossible, is a pain in the arse involving expensive diagnostics to make work. You could probably fit the ECU/mechatronics unit from yours but if your existing gearbox works, I'd just use that.

Excuse my ignorance but why is this the case for the gearbox and not the engine ?

The engine itself doesn't have any electronics like solenoids etc actually inside it.

[M4cruiser]

Escy said:

I've got what's left of the engine out this evening.

It could be back up and running by the end of the weekend.

I've blocked out my diary for Sunday afternoon / Monday morning to have a good read ....

[Maxdecel]

LunarOne said:

Why? It was the bodged engine giving all the trouble - the rest of the car was fine. Now that the engine is gone and not going back in, the car will have every chance of being just as reliable as any other JLR product.

Oh...

JLR Were convinced it worked straight out of the box !
ENGINEERED FOR PERFORMANCE

Ingenium is a state-of-the-art car engine designed and engineered from scratch at our Engine Manufacturing Centre in the West Midlands. The Ingenium engine was built to maximise performance and environmental sustainability at the same time as driving down running costs for car owners.
And:-
.......Extensively tested over two-million real-world miles,......
Doesn't state how many vehicles they used though
https://www.jaguar.co.uk/about-jaguar/ingenium-eng...

[Speed 3]

Escy said:

I've got what's left of the engine out this evening.

I'd be checking the gearbox, exhaust, radiator & firewall just to be sure

[B'stard Child]

Maxdecel said:

LunarOne said:

Why? It was the bodged engine giving all the trouble - the rest of the car was fine. Now that the engine is gone and not going back in, the car will have every chance of being just as reliable as any other JLR product.

Oh...

JLR Were convinced it worked straight out of the box !
ENGINEERED FOR PERFORMANCE

Ingenium is a state-of-the-art car engine designed and engineered from scratch at our Engine Manufacturing Centre in the West Midlands. The Ingenium engine was built to maximise performance and environmental sustainability at the same time as driving down running costs for car owners.
And:-
.......Extensively tested over two-million real-world miles,......
Doesn't state how many vehicles they used though
https://www.jaguar.co.uk/about-jaguar/ingenium-eng...

Jaguarl said:

These innovations of lower oil consumption and a cleaner combustion process also allow you to go 30% further before your next service, now every 21,000 miles instead of every 16,000.

I'm sure that it's fine for the 70 to 80 K and 4 years it does in company car ownership - It'll be wkered by the time it's had 2 more years "private" ownership