Jaguar F-Pace Non Runner

[Escy]

Yeah it is but the bolt snapped on removal, the cap is worn away, there was loads of movement in it. That's why I thought it didn't look like it knocked for 20 seconds before cutting out.

[Escy]

Court_S said:

That’s a good effort so far.

Someone has done a proper number on that engine…you’re a braver man many taking that on. I guess many would just wang a new (used) engine in.

I would usually on this type of failure but in this instance used engines aren't really about at reasonable money. Lots of demand because they are crap.

SonicHedgeHog said:

Pretty epic stuff, especially at this time of year with the rubbish weather and lots of family stuff going on.

I’m not qualified to comment on the detail of the engine rebuild, but I would be inclined to try and rebuild this one. Reason being that Land Rover engines don’t have a great reputation at the moment and a replacement used unit could well give up the ghost too. Better to rebuild this one using quality components so it’ll definitely last a long time.

Good luck. I think it’s fair to say everyone on Pistonheads is rooting for you.

That is the other thing, buying a replacement used engine doesn't necessarily mean you are sorted. Looking around on the internet there are all sorts of tales of woe, like engines with sub 30k on them suffering catastrophic failure.

RazerSauber said:

I'm all in on this. I'm sure Salvage Rebuilds UK have had similar issues with this engine in a few Land Rovers and they seem to get them going again, though I'm not sure any have made such a mess of the bottom end.

I've watched some relevant videos on their channel. They had a Discovery sport which had a blocked DPF and a bottom end knock. He cleaned up the crank and replaced the bearings as a temporary fix and there wasn't a follow up video on it. I think they probably palmed that one off into an auction. The new video with the specialist on the timing chain is very good.

LivLL said:

It failed the mot in Jan 21' for this and somehow passed a few days later at a different MOT station.

This car looks unloved and poorly maintained to get in such a state after just 6 years.

How many owners has it had?

The shell damage looks suspiciously like someone has had the exact same failure before and just slapped in some new shells and flogged it on.

Loving the write up but if it was mine I'd be a bit concerned with the state of the rest of it. ££££ can soon stack up with a proper strip and rebuild - do you have a budget and a get out for this car?

The CV boot fail said it was split, this one isn't split, just cracked and about to be split. It looks like a stretchy universal fit boot, I think it was replaced but the quality is no good. I did go to a motor factors this morning and they can't get them which probably explains why it's got what it does on it.

It's had 2 owners before me, the guy who bought it new and the one I bought it off who bought it broken and sold it broken (to me) a month later. He's not told me any lies, there's no reason not to believe what he says, he was selling it with a broken engine. He said there wasn't anything wrong with the shells but he replaced them while he was in there (the conrods were off anyway). He did mention he wish he'd taken it straight to webuyanycar once he got it running, 20/20 hindsight. He'd have done that if he was patching it up and he certainly wouldn't have gone to Jaguar for a turbo.

I haven't set a budget but I think I've got it roughly worked out and I'd like it to come in at under 10k all fixed and running. If my crank can be re-ground I should be looking at about around £400 with new bearings, if not, a replacement crank and bearings is £630. Rods are £200 for a set of 4, a gasket set is £150. So about £1000. If I need an oil pump that's another £400. Then all the little bits like oil, coolant, another upright, CV boot, MOT, etc I'd say would be £500. The risk is, I miss something and end up back to square one like the last guy.

[Escy]

Shedding said:

I'm also suspicious on whether the last person did the work they say. The sealant in this photo definitely looks factory. Would it have had to be broken for the cylinder boring? I would have thought so to clear any swarf. Can you call South Wales Piston Services and check they definitely did work?

It's got to be said, the last guy was pretty impressive when it comes to sealant use. It's definately all been apart. I dropped the crank off to South Wales Pistons this morning and had a chat with him. He confirmed he did the work.

[Escy]

996Keef said:

Are the main caps numbered? Would be worth a line bore , looks like the tolerances weren't checked last time, chewed through super quickly

They are numbered. All were fitted in the right order. Looking at the mains shells, they are more worn the the closer they are to the knocking rod. I was thinking they look like they do due to the forces of that. I'll speak to South Wales Pistons about getting a line bore done.

[Escy]

It looks like the bottom end has been staved of oil, I've taken the cams out and they look good, no sign of metal debris anywhere in the top end of the engine.

I'm thinking either a blocked oil way or an oil pump problem.

[Escy]

That would explain it nicely but I asked him why he bought some valves, his reply was they weren't seating tidy when they were lapping them in.

[Escy]

Darkslider said:

Nothing much to add other than if this was mine I'd be gutting and mapping out the dpf before doing any serious miles in it once repaired.

Yeah, the more research I do the more the DPF seems to be the cause of issues. Especially bore damage due to failed re-gens and oil dilution that leads to bottom end failure. Since this engine had bore damage and a partially blocked DPF, I'll be opening it up and removing it and welding it back together. I want to give it the best chance of being reliable.

I sent the ECU off on Monday for a re-map with the DPF coded out. Got it back Wednesday. Impressive turnaround just before Christmas. I sent it to RJTuning, only £120.

IMG_20221222_120304702_HDR by Thomas Prosser, on Flickr

[Escy]

I'll open the dpf up, remove it and weld it up. I won't be removing any hardware, it'll look physically the same.

[Escy]

I do have a YouTube channel and I'm recording some clips on this car with the aim of putting a video together, in a similar style to the non running Audi A8 video I did - bought, process of fixing it and then selling it in one short video (I won't be selling the F-Pace). I'm lacking charisma, my delivery is pretty bland but hopefully the content isn't. I've also got another video I should upload, a non running Mini Clubman Hampton I fixed a few months ago.

sparkypups said:

Hi Escy

Whilst you have the engine etc. removed, could you be so kind to identify where the drains are?

Mine are blocked and I am getting water ingress when it rains

I'm currently away but I'll look when I'm back home.

[Escy]

sparkypups said:

Hi Escy

Whilst you have the engine etc. removed, could you be so kind to identify where the drains are?

Mine are blocked and I am getting water ingress when it rains

If you mean the drains in the scuttle, you can access these from underneath if you remove the wheel arch liners. There isn't a rubber bung in them like on VAG stuff, it's just quite a large open hole (I dropped a spanner and it ended up on the floor). If you've got a sun roof, I'd think it's more likely the drains are blocked?

carinaman said:

Escy, I'd have taken the MINI if it saved £100 in fuel costs. It's a bit of a slog and there are better ways to spend that £100.

If you don't take the A30 you'll be driving past where you got that GTV V6 in 2012. Best wishes to you and your family for 2023 and thanks for another interesting PH thread.

We ended up with the Cayenne packed to the gills, we stood no chance in the Mini. Did I buy the GTV from you? That was possibly the best sounding car I've owned.

[Escy]

I took the cams out to inspect the top end. It's a mixed bag, generally clean, no signs of metal in the oil like the bottom end, the filter looks to have done it's job. There is however a fairly deep score on one camshaft lobe and on the corresponding rocker. I asked the previous owner and he doesn't remember these marks and I'm inclined to believe him, you can replace a rocker for £15. It looks like it's caused by debris but it's interesting the rocker is scored in the middle and the cam is scored off centre. The cam is scored all the way around, not just the lobe but the base also. As the damage isn't in the centre of the lobe, I'm leaning towards keeping the cam (can't find a used replacement that easily) and just replacing the rocker. Opinions on this are welcome!

IMG_20221229_121325054

IMG_20221229_121247562_HDR

[Escy]

skwdenyer said:

Hard to imagine quite what the interaction looked like that generated that damage.

Given the evidence of debris permeating all corners of the engine, it is hard to imagine there's much option beyond stripping down the whole block and starting to built it up again, inspecting / measuring everything as you go.

Or just patch it up and stick it on WBAC...

As regards the camshaft itself, what's the likely case hardening depth on that? That damage looks quite deep. Typical case hardening is only about 80 thou.

I'd expect (assuming a uniform roller contact) to see more and more damage over time from that lobe, which of course will then chuck particles of metal into the oil, turning-up who knows where.

Some remanufacturers claim they can weld new material on and then re-grind, but that can rather play havoc with the case-hardening. Are there scrap engines of this type available (given the supposed poor reliability)?

Thanks for the reply. I will look for another exhaust cam, it's not worth taking the chance. I might need to buy a cam cover with both cams.

I took the oil pump apart to inspect it and cleaned it up. It's a variable vane one that's controlled by the ECU. Never seen one before. No signs of damage but I did discover a few bits of metal inside it so it was worth doing. The strainer in the pick up pipe has collected a lot of metal, I've ordered a replacement from JLR rather than to try and clean it out.

IMG_20221230_132049069_HDR

I took the oil cooler off. The previous owner did a bit of a bodge with this, it's got a metal gasket, they decided to apply silicone on both sides. If you are going to use silicone, ditch the metal gasket. It made a bit of a mess, as it was squeezed out, there must have been a partial blockage of the oil ports.

IMG_20221230_200251217_HDR

[Escy]

carinaman said:

You didn't buy that GTV V6 from me. I saw that GTV V6 advertised and you bought it and did a thread on it on PH in 2012. I remember the content about whether it had been abandoned and sold off to recoup unpaid parking fines. Regarding the sound of Bussos I've driven a couple but I doubt I'll own one having missed an opportunity in the noughties and having had a near miss and dodged a bullet in 2014/5. I don't have the skills and my resilience and tolerance isn't up it.

You've got a better memory than me, I don't remember posting that.

[Escy]

Megaflow said:

That could very well explain the bearing failure

It could do. I've just opened up the oil filter, there's a silicone snake in there! The service manual shows the oil goes from the oil pump into this cooler before it travels to the filter. There's a strainer on the oil pump pick up so the only place this comes from is that silicone job on the cooler. Imagine if this did cause the failure, lost the engine due to cutting corners on a gasket. There's no way to know conclusively but it might have been a case of the oil supply was ok when running around town but not up to high load for a prolonged period when he blasted it down the motorway. I think I'll need to add a replacement oil cooler to my shopping list.

IMG_20221231_162531014

He left this inlet manifold bolt loose.

IMG_20221231_134425482_HDR

These ports were cleaned when it was apart 200 miles ago, dirtier than I'd expect. The EGR is going to be blocked up which should improve the long term reliability.

IMG_20221231_161621615_HDR

markirl said:

Great thread and hope you manage to resolve all the issues!

Having had a bottom end failure in the past following a rebuild due to a failure of the engine builder to clean the oil passageways, make sure that you find a way to do this effectively or you risk future failure!

This is my main concern, I can't afford to get it wrong and be back to square one 200 miles down the road like the last guy. I'm going to be as thorough as I can be with the cleaning. I plan to blow compressed air through all the oilways.

[Escy]

It is the car! Do you own it now? I didn't have it long but I loved it. With the Ragazzon exhaust and the snazzy interior it had a real sense of occasion. It felt like something really special. Mad to think I paid £1000 for it.

20130309_154836


20130309_154813

[Escy]

Thanks, are you local? I want to use the Boxster lots more this year.

The cams are bolted into the cam cover rather than the head so I can't see how they are on the rockers. I will replace this cam. The previous owner said one of two of the hydraulic tappets were noisy, maybe he was hearing this cam/rocker damage being created.

[Escy]

FourGears said:

I live on the estate by the Dip Garage. So I think you are on the next estate over?

Yeah, where all the killer dogs are.

[Escy]

I was taking the cylinder head off and my ribe bit snapped, didn't expect that, I'd cracked them all off and was on the second pass when it happened. There is some mega torque on them though. I'd rather a snapped bit than a snapped head bolt. I need to buy another one now and everywhere is closed.

IMG_20221231_195931382

It was dry for a few hours so I turned my attention to the DPF. Chopped a panel out of the side.

IMG_20230101_114815946

Then set about it with an air chisel, it made light work of it. I'm keeping the catalytic converter which is in the upper part.

IMG_20230101_115925266

I blocked up the port that feeds the exhaust into the EGR system. Decided to do it from inside so it won't be seen.

IMG_20230101_143010034

I don't know much about DPF's, there wasn't any soot in it really but the end was partially blocked like this. I don't know if that get's cleared out during a re-gen or not? Either way, it' gone now.

IMG_20230101_121658624

Welded back up.

IMG_20230101_150752076

Heatshields back on.

IMG_20230101_185414891_HDR

This is the EGR pipe that feeds back into the inlet manifold. I cut the end off that and welded a plate over it.

IMG_20230101_122411499

[Escy]

lancer778544 said:

I've got a ribe set you can borrow as well Tom if needed, it's this one from Amazon. It was only needed for the FIat so it shouldn't be needed for a while if you're passing and like to borrow it while you source a replacement bit.

Hope the engine stand worked out for you too.

Machine Mart is open tomorrow so I'll pick some up there rather than risk breaking someone else's tools. Thank you for the offer.

I really appreciate you lending me the engine stand, it'll make building the engine back up so much easier (especially now I know how much torque the head bolts need). I've put it together but haven't got the engine mounted on it yet, I was planning on putting a picture up once it's mounted to acknowledge your generosity, lending equipment out to a random off the internet. Thanks Chris!

[Escy]

I got the head off and the pistons out and I'm a little worried with what I've found. I was banking on the bores and pistons being perfect, it's done about 200 miles since they were done so I thought that was a reasonable expectation.

IMG_20230102_193843492

The coating has worn off all the pistons, on both sides.

IMG_20230102_193856987_HDR

IMG_20230102_193852256_HDR

The bores all have marks on them.

IMG_20230102_194849659

I think it looks like the bore to piston clearance is too tight. The last owner supplied the oversize pistons to the machine shop who then fitted a liner in one bore and bored everything out to suit the new pistons. I plan to take the block and pistons down there tomorrow and get their opinion on it.

It looks worse in the photos than it is, there are no deep scores on the pistons or the cylinder walls, I can't feel anything with my nails. If this was an engine with 100k on it I wouldn't be overly concerned but with 200 miles on it, I am.