Jaguar F-Pace Non Runner

[Escy]

samoht said:

Time to move it on, before the next problem arises ??

It probably makes sense but I'm going to keep it. It ticks all the boxes (except for reliability!) as a family car, we both really like it. However it's on thin ice though, if it sees the back of a low loader again, it's going.

silentbrown said:

Good news!
Did you have a quick peek at the valve gear? The prospect of a dropped valve in the next installment would be concerning me!

Edited by silentbrown on Saturday 7th October 10:33

I didn't think it was worth the hassle as it's quite a lot of extra work and more money on gaskets. I'd expect it to break a rocker if there was piston to valve contact. I had an Alfa 1.9tdi that I bought with a snapped cambelt. It had broken 3 rockers, I replaced them and did 5k miles in it with no issues before I sold it on.

[Escy]

I'd describe it as reasonable. I wouldn't have an issue if I wanted to sell it but it's still not the quietest ingenium I've heard, just not overly loud like before. I did hope changing the chains again after realising the mistake with the tensioner was going to improve it further but it stayed the same.

[Escy]

Even with a positive ownership experience, the engine showing signs it needed a chain at 80k is outrageous when you think about it.

[Escy]

Court_S said:

Sounds like you’ve had a bit of luck their OP with nothing major being wrong.

Still reckon you’re a brave man hanging on to it….hopefully it’ll pay you back by working as it should.

Probably more stupid than brave but I feel a bit locked in now.
Selling it wouldn't be easy, i think most people wouldn't want to by a car like this privately and also if the new owner saw this thread after they'd bought it they'd be horrified or feel ripped off?! I'd rather not sell privately.

If I put it through the an auction or used one of the various trade buyer services I'd get less back than I've put into it. Say I end up with 10-12k back, I can't think of a car I'd prefer over this anyway. It ticks all the boxes, good size, I think it looks decent, drives nice, good on fuel. My wife really likes it.

So it stays and fingers crossed I can reap the rewards of the work that's gone into it. New tyres, new battery, rebuilt engine, new timing chain, no DPF worries, serviced gearbox, new turbo. It should be good for years to come, that said the broken timing chain sprocket came out of nowhere so I'm not holding my breath. I'll just roll with it and see how it goes.

[Escy]

G Thang said:

went to a dealer for a pitiful price. They were aware of the issues. They all are at this point, the offer price on these is incredibly low, and due to the internet, is exactly the same wherever you go. There was plenty of money in it to repair and sell on for a healthy profit.

If you'd offered it to me I'd have bought it, pitiful prices are my favourite type.

I've got all the tools sat doing nothing and now my Jaguar is the pinnacle of reliability I need something to keep me busy.

[Escy]

I think he means who'd buy it off me once fixed which is a valid point.

That EOS was dry inside the boot when I bought it, no rust on the hydraulic pump that sits inside a sponge so looked like it'd always been dry. Now it's got a swimming pool in it. All it's done is be parked up for a month. This is why they are always cheap, they are trouble. To get my money back I'm going to pull the engine and gearbox, take a few choice bits off it and send it to the car park in the sky.

[Escy]

Sauce said:

Chapeau Ecsy this is an amazing thread. I’ve also only found it in the last couple of days and binged through. Topical for me as my 2.0 VAG diesel seems to be sounding rougher and dropping off in MPG. Sadly I don’t possess your mechanical skill. I half hope things are now running smoothly, and half hope you’re going to do a post and video of you rebuilding the gearbox

Thank you. It's running alright for the time being. Have you checked the oil level in yours?

Joey Deacon said:

Is it wrong that every time I see this thread at the top of the list I assume the engine has been out again?

I think we all know it's going to end in tears at some point!

Richbo said:

Message for Escy, can't recall if I ever posted in this thread before?

Just want to thank you for this and your Porsche thread. You don't have to document your troubles and successes, but you do and I'm very grateful.

I've had a tough year and to be able to engross myself in your thread has been a real distraction at times. It's been a roller coaster and I've been willing you on the whole time. I hope the jaaaaaag continues to run without incident and your endeavours are rewarded with long term reliability a'la cost saving as Originally planned.

Thank you.

That's a nice message, thank you.

I didn't post much on PH before I started the original Porsche thread. If I'm being honest I found it a bit intimidating on here. I had the impression there were lots of knowledgeable people looking for any opportunity to belittle others. I'm no expert in anything and my mentality has been have a go and see how I get on so there is plenty of scope to open myself up for a ribbing.

Since I have started posting it's been a good experience. This thread especially so. I ended up taking on a bit more than I expected initially after seeing the state of the engine. There was a lot of advice on here which helped me navigate through it all. If I wasn't posting about it all, I think I might have just spend 4k on a used engine, got it running, sold it on and licked my wounds. I feel like I've been carried on a wave of goodwill!

I think the original plan of cost saving is out of the window. As it stands it owes me £13230. At the time they were starting at around 15k but the market on everything has dropped. You can get an F-Pace with similar mileage for 12k now. I can't chalk it up as a worth while endeavour financially.

For anyone that's interested here's the full breakdown on it.

Car - 8000
Recovery - 80
ECU remap - 125
Special tools - 190
Balance shaft tool - 225
Oil pick up, O ring, CV boots - 115
Oil cooler gasket, flywheel bolts - 30
Oil and filters - 90
Re-hone - 60
Diff oil - 20
4x rods - 200
Crankshaft with bearings - 600
Cylinder head - 180
Pistons - 240
Head Gasket set - 145
Head bolts - 45
Hub - 120 (60 refunded)
Oil cooler - 20
Engine bolts - 85
Bushing - 20
Balance shaft - 50
Balance shaft gears - 50
Crank polish and block cleaning - 50
Running in oil and anti freeze - 60
MOT - 45
Injector insulation - 20
2 rear tyres - 235
Spare injector - 55
Rear pads - 45
Cam actuator - 70
Cams - 245
Timing chain kit - 240
Crankshaft seal - 15
Jaguar bits - 70
Gaskets - 55
Gearbox oil - 15
Crank seal tool (front) - 45
Correct diff seal - 40
A/C compressor - 40
Battery - 170
Gear selector - 140
Oil change - 70
A/C compressor - 45
Timing chain kit - 160
2x tyres - 235
Alignment - 65
Crank seal - 30
Gearbox service kit - 270
Sprocket - 55
HVAC ecu - 25

£13230

[Escy]

There's also £460 of special tools in that list which I can use on another engine in the future so I can probably man maths those off the list also.

I'm not upset about where I've ended up, I was just pointing out it's not been a success finically. I really like the car, I wanted the keep it at the start, I still want to keep it now. It's perfect for what we need. I'll be more than happy to keep it for years to come. The only caveat is it needs to stay reliable now.

I've picked up some good knowledge and experience along the way, I figure something else with a 204DTD will come my way where I can put those tools to use.

[Escy]

catfood12 said:

OP, I was sure you mentioned a diagnostic tablet that was like an Autel but cheaper on this thread, but having gone back and forth through the thread, I can see screenshots, but no mention of what it is. Can you remind me please?

Also just noticed the Vevor air jack on P62. I have a couple of these, they're so handy. For the rest of you;

https://uk.vevor.com/floor-jacks-c_11489/5500lbs-d...

That air jack is so useful. I need to buy another so I can lift both sides up. Much safer than a trolley jack when you need to go up high as they stay stable and dont roll.

I've got an Otofix D1 Pro. It's made by Autel. Have bought the Autel bore scope cam and battery tester for it and they both worked. I think I paid about £580 for it. I'm not sure what the equivalent Autel model is and if it works out any cheaper.

I'm really happy with it, it's done everything I've wanted it to do. Have calibrated air suspension on an Audi A6, calibrated the sunroof on the F-Pace that started sticking, it seems to do as much as the official Porsche PIWIS like all the coding stuff. It's probably overkill for my usage but I've had systems in the past that promise things and don't deliver. I'd recommend it.

[Escy]

I had some spare time to look at the A/C not working. Previously I'd found a menu on my diagnostics I'd not seen before which was a compressor run-in procedure which is supposed to be done after you change the gas. I'd done the procedure a few months back but it still didn't work. The code I'm getting is P1308-13 which is for the compressor clutch. It's a permanent fault (if the A/C is on). There are 3 fault codes for the compressor clutch short to power, short to ground and mine which is open circuit high resistance.

I had a look at the wiring. The one I was interested in is the third one from the bottom on the climate control module. Violet-white - AC clutch relay control.



I probed it with my tester while actuating the compressor via my diagnostics. There was nothing happening. If I gave it 12v I could hear the clutch on the compressor work. I ran the engine and gave this wire 12v with my tester. The A/C worked fine. I'm ruling out the clutch/compressor (it is the 3rd one fitted at this point).

The strange thing is why I'm not getting an output from the HVAC module on this wire. I bought a replacement in case this had a fault. It made no difference.



After doing the run-in procedure the first time the system now says it's been run in on the diagnostics. It didn't previously.



When I look at the freeze frame data for the fault code it says the compressor run-in is incomplete.



The P1308-13 fault comes up during the run-in procedure. Part of the procedure is to clear the errors but maybe my diagnostics isn't capable of doing what it thinks it is doing. Maybe I need to take it to a dealer or someone with dealer level diagnostics at this point.

---

As I writing this post out I thought of some other stuff to look at. I decided to check the resistance across the clutch of both the old compressors and the one on the car. Both compressors were showing 0.02 ohm. On the car measuring from the HVAC ecu pin it was 0.03ohm. I pulled the fuse for the HVAC module and checked it, then traced the power back just to confirm it was defiantly the right fuse (logo looks like a heated window). Then when I did a compressor clutch test on the diagnostics and it clicked! The fault code was gone, I started the engine on and the A/C now works.

Not got a clue what has sorted it out. I can't see how it's just a bad connection on the plugs as they've been removed and re-fitted plenty of times. I even took the cover off before to verify the pin on the circuit board had continuity to the other side of the plug.

Thought I'd post this as there is nothing on the internet for this fault code, it might help someone in the future, although my answer was mess about until it works.

[Escy]

It passed the MOT with no advisory's a few weeks ago. It's done 9,500 miles since the re-build which I guess is a success. That said it's still loud. The crankcase pressure seems a bit high, I can feel chuffs with the oil cap off and it seems to need the oil topping up fairly regularly. It turns out there isn't an oil level warning light on these, can't believe JLR missed that out. It was bellow the minimum level the first time I noticed it was low. I keep a regular eye on it now. I don't notice any smoke from the exhaust, it runs nicely as it always has. The plan is the same as before, just run it until something happens and hope it doesn't.



Had my insurance renewal come up, market value has dropped 5k in a year and the insurance cost has nearly doubled.

[Escy]

Mad Maximus said:

Always glad to hear it’s running well but my evil side wants some action so I can admire your skills and handy work.

Any new projects in the future?

Nothing in the pipeline. A month ago I bought a Fiat Punto Evo Abarth with a blown head gasket which I fixed.

QBee said:

My wife's insurance also more than doubled at renewal, and then some more when I told them I had had a minor accident.
I used the Meerkat search facility and reduced it to back down to £50 more than last year.
I suggest you might like to try something similar if you haven't already.

I did have a look around. I managed to get it for £650 which is £225 up on last year.

The test driver said:

I know it means having to talk to a dealership and all the joys that brings but, it is worth checking to see if there are any later PCM software updates available, as I've heard of this being something that was addressed with other engine lines.

You maybe able to check yourself in Topix.

I'll look into it. I know there is an update available for the InControl system which adds Android Auto.

[Escy]

It was the rare Esseesse version which comes with the hard back Sabelt seats and forged wheels so it was 180bhp. I drove it home 2 hours with the head gasket blown between cylinder 2 and 3 (so not issue with oil or coolant). It took me about 5 minutes to get it up to 70mph on the motorway.

[Escy]

Mad Maximus said:

That’s very rare. I saw one visiting local to me and looked really nice. You keeping it? Any pics?

I've fancied one for a while but I've got no need for one. I've got my Boxster which I use as my main car and I barely use that as I walk to work. I figured if I kept the Abarth I would never use the Boxster. The initial plan was to fix it up, run it for a few months to scratch the itch and sell it on. It's was a bit of a chavvy example (had dodgy aftermarket headlights) and was high mileage, over 160k. There were knocks and clunks all over the place, it needed top mounts and drop links doing. I took it for a test drive after doing the engine and I was underwhelmed with the performance, it was decent but the Boxster has re-calibrated what feels fast to me. It was worth more in parts than complete and fixed up (due to the mileage) so that's the way I ended up going with it. Bit of a shame as it's a rare car.

President Merkin said:

Escy, have you checked the PCV valve? These are classic symptoms of a bad one,

I thought that, I was going to replace it but they aren't easily available in the aftermarket, I found a website that looked Russian but nothing in the UK. I think JLR will sell it complete with the housing and I assume it'll be quite expensive. I've seen diesels with a bad PCV valve and they build pressure up and you feel it escape as you undo the cap. It's not like that on this.

remedy said:

Thanks OP. I have lost a day reading the entire thread, having never seen it before.
Ups, downs, trials, tribulations, success, heartbreak, frustration with the wife. All bases covered. Fantastic read and in envy of your can-do approach!
The idea of pulling the engine for the second time gave me anxiety.

Fair play for reading through it all, it's a big thread. I'm glad you thought it was worth the time.

[Escy]

It looks like part 3 is coming up. My wife rang me to say it had conked out. She described it as a single crisp packet popping noise and then it slowly cut out and wouldn't start. It wouldn't turn over.

IMG_20240416_173803529

I've had a quick look at it, pulled the starter motor out. The flywheel is solid if I try to turn it the correct direction. If I go backwards it's nice and smooth so the bottom end isn't locked up.

I've taken the top cover off, the upper chain is fine. The lower chain is still on its sprocket at the top but that's all I can see.

IMG_20240416_232326303

If I move the flywheel whilst I have an inspection camera on the top sprocket for the lower chain it looks like there's quite a bit of movement when I go from anti clockwise to clockwise. My current theory is something has broken on the lower chain (tensioner/guide), it's slipped a tooth and bent a valve.

It looks like the gearbox and cylinder head are coming off this weekend. It's been recovered 3 times in a year now. Flat battery/gear selector issue, broken cam sprocket and now whatever this is.

[Escy]

It might be the final straw. I need to do some number crunching before I make any decisions.

I think it's not worth fixing the engine, it always sounded ropey to the point where I couldn't sell the car if I wanted to. If I repaired it, I'd expect it to still sound the same. I'd be locked in again, just waiting for the next failure. I don't think I should carry on spending good money after bad.

That leaves me with 3 options.

Sell it the same as how I bought it as a non-runner, probably get 5-6k for it now the values have dropped.

Break it for parts - I'd need to price up if it's worth more than 5-6k otherwise it's pointless, I doubt it is

Buy a 3k used engine, fit that and just sell it on.

We both really like the car but it can't carry on like it is.

[Escy]

I've been down in the dumps all day. Since I got back from work I've been having a think and I've come up with a plan. I need to strip the engine down and work out the issue for my own piece of mind or just in case it's a relatively cheap fix.

If it's bad news, it's already in a load of parts so I'll carry on and break it for spares. I've run the numbers going by sold ebay listings on F-Pace parts, it looks like it'll do 8-9k in parts. That's much better than I expected. Obviously it's a load of work and will take months to see the money back but it's the best way to dig out of the hole I'm in.

I've got a E92 BMW 330i manual I bought from a friend of a friend for £1500. I was planning to strip that for spares but I haven't got around to it as I've been too busy messing about with my Boxster. It's booked in for an MOT Friday morning. It's tatty but it seems a good car mechanically so fingers crossed it passes. If it does, my wife will use that for the next few months and we'll look for a decent family car again once the pot has built back up. If it fails on something simple or cheap I might put it right but if it goes down badly I'll have to just go and buy something else that's got a bit of ticket on it like that EOS I bought the last time the Jaguar shat itself.

IMG_20240309_114441141

IMG_20240309_114500553

[Escy]

I had a result on Friday. The BMW passed it's MOT, I didn't need to do anything to it. So the wife is back on the road and the immediate pressure is off.

I started stripping the Jaguar. I took the gearbox off Thursday evening, it didn't take long, a couple of hours. I know my way around this pretty well at this point.

IMG_20240419_094313553_HDR

I couldn't get to 3 of the flex plate bolts do the torque converter as the engine is locked so it had to stay on.

I moved my attention to getting the cylinder head off. I removed the cams, all the valve springs looked the same height, no obvious sign of a bent valve.

IMG_20240419_184459693_HDR

I took the inlet manifold off and noticed metal on the port, mainly on cylinder 1. Not good.

IMG_20240420_104525261_HDR

IMG_20240420_104534340

Cylinder head off. It's not looking good.

IMG_20240420_125050750

IMG_20240420_125056129

IMG_20240420_130418287_HDR

IMG_20240420_130427402_HDR

Opinions welcome on what's happened here I've not seen that many mashed up engines before. It's done 10k since it was rebuilt. The block did have a couple of liners fitted (don't know which cylinders) and then everything was bored out and I was using aftermarket pistons. Jaguar don't sell larger pistons so bored out liners aren't something that's an approved thing. You can see the liner has dropped and the piston ring is above it. So I'm wondering it it dropped, the ring caught it and it then that mashed up the piston. I can't see how the ring ends up where it is otherwise

It's always been a bit noisy and it seemed to use a bit of oil, the crankcase pressure seemed to be a bit high also. Maybe this failure was on the cards all along?

Moving forward, that's the whole engine totally finished now, no prospect of repairing it (if it was a couple of bent valves I was tempted to). When I calculated what I'd get breaking it I'd made a few assumptions on some engine parts being alright. I'm probably looking at around £7-8k back now if I strip the car for parts. It's a shame to do as there's nothing wrong with the rest of it.

I can chalk this whole endeavour up as a big fat L.

Edited by Escy on Saturday 20th April 13:54

[Escy]

Another photo now I've cleaned up the piston.

IMG_20240420_141722126

B'stard Child said:

0
Does not compute……………

Maybe it ran on 3 cylinders. She also described it as she thought something had come off under the car. I don't hold too much stock in these descriptions.

[Escy]

skwdenyer said:

As for what to do now, the question is what's the head like now? I suspect at the very least the valves on that cylinder will be damaged, but if the head is damaged (as seems likely) then there'd be quite a lot of work - and cost - to get this up and running again. Also, how are the liners held? Is there a lip onto which the liner sits, or is it just pressed in place? If the former, has the block failed?

The head is damaged where all the bits have been bouncing around and the valves are bent on cylinder 1.

Looking back at an old picture it doesn't look like there is a lip at the bottom of the bore so it looks like just press fit.

IMG_20230118_215556176_HDR

Maxdecel said:

10K of use would suggest the liners were correctly fitted, this site suggests "We have found the fuel injectors fitted to the 2.0 Ingenium engines have a tendency to over-fuel. This simply means the injector itself is injecting too much fuel inside the cylinder, so produces an extreme amount of heat" - https://dieselheads.co.uk/our-engines/jaguar/jagua...

Injector failure ?

Not quite the same but a source of excess heat, here the liner submitted before the piston ?

Sounds plausible. The injectors were tested when the last guy had a go at re-building it.

When looking at the pistons and exhaust ports, cylinder 4 looked like it might have been the one guilty for an oil consumption issue. If I had to guess which one ran rich I'd be going with 4 and not 1.

IMG_20240420_174250559

IMG_20240420_174241848_HDR

Megaflow said:

That is a very strange failure after 10k, normally if a liner was going to fail, it would fail pretty much straight away.

It would be interesting to see the bottom of the liner, and the liner and piston if they get removed. But I suspect that won't happen, very little benefit to be had in reality.

The injector theory could hold some weight.



ETA: Looking back at the pictures again, and the what Mrs Escy has said, what does the underside of the head look like? Im going to speculate it is utterly ruined, I suspect the piston failed, got mashed around in side the bore and eventually took the liner with it, which is what caused it to stop. If the liner moved, if it has made conact with the crank it would stop pretty quickly I'd think.

Edited by Megaflow on Saturday 20th April 18:11

I will strip it right down as I want to see if the crank is salvageable. I can't get a full rotation of the bottom end so either the rod or the crank is touching the dropped liner.

MDifficult said:

Not sure I’d find that cathartic? Having a pull apart an otherwise loved and enjoyed car, piece by piece, over weeks and months, watching it slowly decompose on your driveway.. feels like the opposite of cathartic. Feels like having a daily reminder of something painful.

Get it sold as it sits, write it off as an adventure, enjoy the BMW, focus energy on something much more positive.

I agree, it won't be cathartic, it'll be horrible. We both love the car and it'll likely be getting replaced with something older and less nice so pulling it apart won't be something I enjoy.

Selling it as it sits isn't really an option, I don't want to put it back together as it is. I'll either break it or buy another engine for it,

D_G said:

Breaking a car is a real ballache so I'd think carefully about it rather than just out it as it is.

It's not my first rodeo. The BMW we are using now was destined for the chopping block and the Punto I posted earlier went the same way.