Jaguar F-Pace Non Runner

[Escy]

TonyRPH said:

I'm no expert, but the honing marks seem a bit aggressive?

Or is that just the photgraphy making it look worse than it is?

Yeah, they do look a bit spicy compared to other engines I've had apart.

[Escy]

MDMA . said:

Looks like the pistons are covered in small metal filings? Number 3 looks bad, or is it something else?

When I removed them, I put them on a piece of carpet, think it's just from that.

[Escy]

Just cleaning up the pistons and noticed a strange indent on one of them. Looks like the indent you'd make with a punch. Only one, no marks on the cylinder head. It wasn't on the cylinder that had the knock either. It's certainly been an eventful couple hundred miles for this engine.

IMG_20230102_213633645_HDR

IMG_20230102_213645620

[Escy]

littlebasher said:

Youtuber M359 had a aluminium BMW Alpina engine sleeved. The damage to your pistons looks a lot like what happened to his.

Piston expanded faster than the sleeve, clearance shrunk and ate the piston.

Thanks, I'll check it out. I'm thinking this is what's happened here.

My theory is, for an engine with liners you'd usually replace the liners rather than re-bore. These oversize pistons are only available aftermarket you can't get them from JLR, they write off any engine with bore damage. It's probably something the machine shop would rather not do so went for the minimum spec bore size and it's proved inadequate.

What I'm expecting will happen is I go down there, I'm just going to ask them for their opinion, not float my theory but they also think it's an issue their end and they get on the defensive and want nothing more to do with it. He wasn't a fan of these engines to start with.

markirl said:

Do you feel that the seller has been telling you some porkies?

In what regard?

[Escy]

I agree this engine is starting to look like a bust. Other than the cylinder head (minus the exhaust cam) I've got nothing useable. Messing about with engine swaps isn't going to happen, I need this car up and running quickly.

Looking around, engines advertised as spares or repairs are £1000-1500, most seem to have knocking bottom ends, there is one which is a suspected chain failure, bottom end turns, cam's don't, that could be worth a look but buying a spares or repairs engine is a huge risk, I could end up in the same position I am now, everything damaged. It feels like way too much money to take a punt with.

A re-built engine (I question the quality) is 3k. This is more than I planned to spend, I'd probably have to fit it and sell the car.

Used engines just don't seem to be out there under about 4.5k, just not an option.

It's looking like I've rolled the dice and lost on this one. I was working on the hope the block and pistons were good, I'm going to see what the verdict is from the machine shop later on today.

[Escy]

IMG_20230103_104642937

I've just got back from SWP, they had a good look at it. The pistons are definitely new, they are oversized. He measured it and said the clearance was fine. He's happy with the bores, said a quick hone will sort that. I'm going to need new pistons, the one that had the knock picked up some damage underneath, you need to buy over size pistons in a set of 4. I did think they rings seem quite loose but they would have been supplied with the pistons.

The bit I'm not totally convinced about is he's saying the coating wearing off the pistons is normal. I agree on an engine that's done some mileage but not at 200 miles. There was no damage to them so he's saying get another set and I'll be fine. I've seen videos from Mahle explaining piston coating wear and what it means. I personally don't think it's how it should be but he's the expert, I'm not so can't really argue the point. I was dealing with one of the younger lads rather than the boss who wasn't there.

He had a look at the cam shaft score, he thinks it'll be alright after a polish as its on the edge of the lobe.

Still waiting to hear back on the condition of the crank, this is going to decide what happens I think.

[Escy]

I watched those videos last night, I really like his video style. I was gutted for him also, so much work, time and money gone to waste.

[Escy]

stevemcs said:

Some parts seem to be available from here

https://www.turnerengineering.co.uk/20-ingenium-en...

Thanks for the link. I did find their website earlier and I'm planning on ordering I've got a load of parts in my basket whilst I wait for an outcome on the crank.

Cambs_Stuart said:

I haven't got any useful info to contribute, but this is a really interesting thread. Having seen a few very cheap JRL products with engine failure I had wondered how hard they'd be to repair. Based on this it's safe to say it'd be well outside my time/skill/space constraints.

I hope it's not beyond mine but I might have bitten off more than I can chew.

[Escy]

Jon_Bmw said:

In the realms of trying to save some pounds, could you Xylan coat the pistons? If you have accurate measuring equipment, you might be able to build them back up close to their original spec.

That level of scuffing should not be evident after 200 miles. The bores need measuring in an X pattern and at multiple bore heights. Presumably the machine shop can do this for you.

Skim reading through, its difficult to know whether going back to the same machine shop is a good idea or not. If anything is their fault, they are going to want to, erm.... cover it up. But they might also want to resolve it as they don't want you back for the 2nd time and the engine the 3rd time. Flip of a coin stuff.

Edit: I see you are having to replace the pistons as a complete set because of some damage, so you can discount my advice, unless you could somehow source an oversize single piston.

That skirt wear is very suspicious and needs a root cause or you are going to be back here again... I don't buy a constant regen and subsequent bore wash caused that in 200 miles (6hrs running?)

Edited by Jon_Bmw on Tuesday 3rd January 14:07

Yeah, I know what you mean about going back to the same place. They do these engines all the time, had a few others there so I guess they know what they are doing. These pistons are only £70 each, including the rings, is there a chance the coating on them is just crap?

I have seen I can buy oversize pistons individually. I definately need one, another has the indent on it which I put a photo up of earlier so I'd want to change that. I figure I may as well get 4 at that point.

I agree the skirt wear is suspicious but if they say it's nothing to worry about, my choice is either accept that or take it somewhere else (It's the only place I know of and everyone local seems to use them). I've left all the parts with them, maybe the boss will have a look and think differently. He said there has been no material transfer between the pistons and the bores and put the scratches on the bores down to metal in the oil.

[Escy]

Jon_Bmw said:

This is an interesting read, well it is for me anyway;

https://www.mahle-aftermarket.com/media/local-medi...

A useful document for amateur enthusiasts to professionals, in wording that can easily be understood by the different audience spectrum.

That's a useful link, thank you.

ClaphamGT3 said:

I'm only a weekend mechanic but, unless these photos are exaggerating the problems - esp with the bores, cam, rocker etc - this has got to be a write-off engine surely?

The problem is, if I write off the engine I don't really have my next move planned out. If it was something more readily available, I wouldn't be persevering with this one.

[Escy]

Jhonno said:

Very brave purchase.. Interested to see how you get on. The concept of repair and reuse, especially on newer vehicles seems to be a lost art!

You can see why JLR just replace the engine straight away.

tvrfan007 said:

I have found this thread a good read, and was hopeful your plight would have a favourable outcome. Its looking decidedly off track atm. Coincidentally started the day I went to my polish mechanic to code a battery in, and he was running an disco outside smoking it's tits off, having shat a turbo, run on the oil and cracked a piston in the process of eating oil. He wasn't very complimentary about the engine, now I can see why having read your thread and many of the ingenium links. What a woeful, cost engineered creation.

The silicone snake in the oil filter is a rather damning find, I must say. The damage pattern is inconsistent across the engine which is curious.

I'm definately off track, didn't get a good nights sleep last night. The engines aren't great but if they were I couldn't afford the car. I had a feel of a block they had in for liners, it had huge ridges at the top of the bores.

[Escy]

TonyRPH said:

Would the excessive skirt wear have been caused by oil starvation?

I'm reading up on it and it is a cause. That might explain it.

[Escy]

Gtom said:

Didn’t you say it was around £3k to have a re con engine fitted?

If so you would be in it for £11k, that’s still cheap and there is some profit in it if you punt it on?

Yeah there would be, although I'll be into it for about 11.5k - 12k now if I go that route.

I might have been undervaluing it a bit. The guide price for private average condition is 16k.

The plan is I can fix this engine, I'll have a car with a fresh engine, fresh turbo and no DPF worries. I can run it for a couple of years, sell it and get my money back. Nice car and no depreciation. The reality could be I spend 2k fixing the engine, it fails and I need to spend 3k on a re-con and i'd lose my shirt on it then.

This crash damaged F-Pace just finished on ebay tonight. It sold for £9675. Same year and model - R Sport, 85k so 30k less miles but it's a CAT S. It has front end damage and all down the side. It's also a lower spec (basic nav, no pan roof). It makes me think I'm sitting pretty with mine.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2016-66-JAGUAR-F-PACE-R...

[Escy]

chippy348 said:

I deal and handle a lot of coated pistons, lots of myths around the coating.

Some are good and stay on, some are just meant to make a cheap piston look good ! i have witnessed workers in piston factory's spraying it on with a aerosol can, we dont put coated pistons though our hot wash as it can remove the coating.

Also clearance is quoted on a un-coated piston IE before they coat them, some like Wossner have a heavy thick coating. Others higher end pistons are leaving a missing round dot so you can measure the piston in the "un-coated" state.

With the pistons being £70.00 each i would not read too much into the state of the coating.

My advice is to get a second opinion on the state of the bores, you really need to find a company who not only is a "jobing shop" for the machine work buu who actually build the engines better still on this type of engine.

Hope this helps

That does help, it confirms my suspicion the coating probably isn't up to much as they are so cheap.

[Escy]

Fermit said:

Escy. How much of a big job would an engine transplant using a similar motor be? Say a BMW 320d engine, or whatever has similar mounting points, etc. Sure, it would be a task, but TBH you're currently facing a pretty gargantuan one with the current Jag engine.

Huge job, not close to feasible on something this modern. I also want it up and running by the end of the month.

[Escy]

Big change of direction!


This morning I bought a used engine at a decent price. £2500. It's from an E-Pace, 2018, 31k miles. It's always a roll of the dice on a used engine, but I'm hopeful with that mileage although I have seen cases of JLR replacing engines that have failed with less!

The engine comes fully dressed up, all ancillaries, turbo, etc. The F-Pace is horizontally mounted so I'll need to change everything over but I've been told the blocks are the same.

I've been running the numbers and this is going to be cheaper than fixing my engine. I'll have parts to sell from this engine and from my old engine. My fag packet maths is

250 turbo
300 injectors
75 HP fuel pump
200 cylinder head
100 cam
50 sump
500 block (after re-hone)

Some will be more, some less, I'll also have lots of solenoids and stuff to sell. These numbers put me at £1025 for the replacement engine.

The cost to fix my current engine is looking like

850 - Turner engineering (rods, pistons, gasket set, oil cooler, etc)
400 - crank regrind with bearings (that's a rough guess and assuming the crank is serviceable, if not it'd be about £600)

So I'd be spending £1250+ to fix the current engine, more if I change the exhaust cam.

So it's looking like a no brainer, a replacement engine will work out cheaper, I'll be able to get it in and running much faster, no risk of getting something wrong/missing something and ending up with another failure. I feel much happier with this direction.

Just need to sort out collecting the engine now, it's in London.

[Escy]

sbk1972 said:

Are you going to rip apart the replace engine and check all is well ? Whilst out I would probably double check the engine is healthy first as several replacement engines in my past, that had low mileage, where rubbish.

I hope the car gods shed some luck on you as you clearly deserve it. :-)

Keep going, be worth it in the end.

Oh yes, how come the drivers side carpet / sill is all torn up ?

Simon

I'd be taking the sump off and the covers on the back of the engine during the process of swapping the parts over so I will have a decent idea how it is but I'm not planning on removing rod caps or anything like that.

If you are referring to the carpet in the rear, it looks like someone spilled some emulsion. I think that'll come out easily with the right equipment.

Megaflow said:

A very sensible move.

The bit that surprises me is you refer to the F-Pace as being horizontally mounted, which I would know as longitudinal. Does that me the E-Pace is vertical/transverse? If so, that’s a surprise I thought the E-Pace and F-Pace were fundamentally the same car, not completely different. It’s not really a surprise Jaguar don’t make money when they are doing things like that.

I made a mistake, trying on a work break and didn't read it back before posting. I meant the E-Pace is horizontally mounted, the F-Pace is longitudinal. The E-Pace is an Evoque chassis.

Haltamer said:

Have a look at the VCT Solenoids on each mounted at the back of the block.

Once you have it all together it'd be worth getting a PCM update, I've seen a number of people remark on the improvement (And know of a couple of issues that are solved) with the updates - Seems they sold the cars before they finished the engine development :P

Thank you for this reply, informative and something I wasn't aware of. I'll definitely check this out.

Regarding the PCM update, is it something you need to go to JLR for? Now I've had the ECU re-mapped, will be be an issue for the update?

[Escy]

stevemcs said:

I have randomly picked a 2018 E and F pace from the interweb, both 180ps versions

It does list a different part number for the block but the part number for the head appears to be the same

Thank you for looking into this, it was a concern I had. I asked QP Online who A.J.M. mentioned are a JLR specialist (their facebook page is full of dead Ingenium engines) if the block is the same, they told me they are so I considered this good enough to pull the trigger.

You've got me a little worried now!?

[Escy]

stevemcs said:

I,m pretty sure you will be ok. If you need any other numbers let us know.

Thank you Steve, I've sent you an email (they often end up in spam!)

[Escy]

Chris-yihaj said:

The transverse block is a different casting and you can’t use it in an inline installation. There’s no RH engine mount bosses, sump mounting is completely different and the turbo oil feed is in a different location.

You’ll need a block from a XE, XF, F-Pace, Velar, and it needs to be the single turbo version as there’s 2 cast turbo oil drain points in the twin turbo block.

I missed this post as it was made whilst I was replying to another one. Your answer sounds pretty comprehensive. I got the seller to send me some close photos which confirms what you said.

Just heard back from SWP, my crank is too damaged.

Back to the drawing board now.