Satan's barge - 1983 Ferrari 400i
Discussion
Thanks for the suggestions about the lenses. My secondhand purchase will do for now. I wouldn't mind shelling out for a pair of new ones on the basis that they're unlikely to need replacing again, but I'd have to have already tackled every other job on the car before doing so. And I'm not sure I'll ever get to that point! Better things to spend the money on for the foreseeable.
The point about the bulbs is probably spot on. I'll report back.
The point about the bulbs is probably spot on. I'll report back.
Momentainious said:
They had a 365GT4 2+2 at an H & H auction in Buxton April last year. It was the only car that I spent more than a few minutes looking at. Lovely colour and a manual.
https://www.handh.co.uk/auction/lot/lot-31---1973-...
I didn't see that one come up! Looks like a beauty. Great colour. https://www.handh.co.uk/auction/lot/lot-31---1973-...
All the 365 versions were manual, actually, and there were 109 RHD cars. The auto was first offered on the 400GT in 1976, a carburettor car, with 501 RHD made, 71% of which were auto. The 400i, from 1979, was the first Ferrari with fuel injection with 1,294 RHD, 67% of which were auto. I haven't got the RHD stats for the 412, but of total factory production of 576 cars, 53% were auto.
Re the transmission, which often comes up in discussions of these cars, I went for an auto as it suited me better. I've had manual Porsches, but, you know, changing gear at normal road speeds, which is what most drivers do most of the time, isn't that much fun. There is a 400 owner on Ferrarichat who had a manual and an auto at the same time, and he sold the manual as he found he just wasn't using it. And, I suspect, if they were your only two cars, most people would do the same.
I mentioned on a past thread about these cars that I did thousands of miles on track in manual V8 Ferraris from the 308 to the 355, with owners and potential owners, and most of them couldn't drive a soapy stick up a dog's arse. When they thought they were relishing some life-affirming experience of mastering a traditional manual Ferrari gearbox, what they were actually doing was destroying a traditional manual Ferrari gearbox. It was painful, and Ferrari dealers must have made a fortune out of repairing cars that owners had no idea how to drive. Back in the '60s and early '70s, with much less traffic and no speed limits, I can see how a sporting motorist would have been able to enjoy regularly using a manual Ferrari. These days, personally, I want to use my car and not worry about getting stuck in traffic for hours - I'm pretty sure the sensual indulgence of a 1970s Ferrari with a manual box wears off fairly rapidly in those situations.
And these are big, lardy GT cars, like the Interceptor, the 928, the XJS and the SL, and designed to be much more practical than smaller, sportier cars. It's a Rolls-Royce with an epic V12 engine. Most motoring journalists writing about these when they were new were not really the target market, and they turned out to be wrong about the automatic diminishing the appeal. Most buyers disagreed with them. It's understandable that enthusiasts of classic cars are into more engaging experiences, but, again, they weren't buying these things new.
If you wanted something to thrash around B-roads, you wouldn't buy one of these. These are for long-distance high speed cruising, in which case you don't need to change gear, or for pottering around the city, in which case you don't want to.
Driving up and down twisty mountain passes in this would be a totally boring way of doing 5mpg, whichever transmission it had. If
you wanted to press on along twisty UK roads, you would never get out of third gear in a manual. By that time, if you were were really revving it, you'd be doing triple figures. I suspect that owners of big, heavy, classic Ferraris that are mostly run for a few hundred miles a year don't actually do that......Anyway, I've driven manual versions and it's really not that different.
In the words of Forrest Gump, that's all I have to say about that!
Edited by Rumdoodle on Thursday 30th March 21:27
90sMasers said:
That blue 412 coming to auction looks a fabulous example.
But I can’t help but think that the shape was ruined in the 412 by the raising of the boot line. The 365 and 400 look so much more elegant in profile than the 412. And once you’ve seen it, you can’t un-see it.
Yes, the 412 is a bit dumpy looking at the back end. Would love to have a drive in one.But I can’t help but think that the shape was ruined in the 412 by the raising of the boot line. The 365 and 400 look so much more elegant in profile than the 412. And once you’ve seen it, you can’t un-see it.
With my first round of snag-sorting done, I did plenty of miles in September. Took it to Kop Hill, an event that I'd never attended despite living in Princes Risborough for ten years or so when I was growing up. That pre-dated the revived hillclimb, and I remember cycling up the hill on my three-speed racing bike. There was some nice Italian motors there
It was an accident at Kop Hill in 1925 that did for motorsport on public roads on the mainland, when an inexperienced driver who had bought a Bugatti off Raymond Mays ploughed into some spectators. One of my pandemic pastimes was acquiring job lots of ancient Motorsport magazines, which revived an old interest in 1930s Grand Prix racing, and also voiturette racing, which became the basis of what, post-war, became known as Formula One. My taste for small capacity engines with loads of cylinders is certainly linked to a bit of a fascination with the Mercedes and Auto Union teams of the 1930s, as well as the BRM V16. I once push-started Froilan Gonzalez in a V16 at Silverstone, and still remember the phenomenal noise of that extraordinary car. Mays, as the brains and money behind ERA and BRM, is one of the most important figures in British motorsport, and a fascinating character. He was a brilliant competitor at Shelsley Walsh, which I also visited for the first time - and second time, actually - also in September. What a gem of a place. I shall definitely be back there as often as I can.
This short clip has a post-race interview with Mays, which is such a contrast with the formulaic drivel churned out at press conferences these days https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDg9dGx3gXs The "Whitney Straight" he refers to as the previous record holder led a rather interesting life.
I then took in the end-of-season Ferrari championship races at Silverstone, which provided a glimpse of the very strange cult of Passione Ferrari, some kind of lifestyle thing based on Ferrari track events. I had free passes and it was just down the road, otherwise it's not the sort of thing I'd have attended. Lots of new models, none of which I could have identified beyond "Ferrari". I guess there might have been more classics if it hadn't clashed with the Goodwood Revival. Nice crowd of people, though, who were all nuts about Ferrari. There was an immaculate red 412 there, which is currently for sale in the classifieds.
Just as the weather started to turn autumnal, I went away again and had the car booked in for new brakes all round in time for some more motoring at Christmas.
JeremyH5 said:
Gents, I see two of you deploring the boot shape on the 412 compared to the 400 but I don’t know what you mean.
Please help me understand what I can’t, for the life of me, see?
Rumdoodles 400
The 412 about to be auctioned
Not deploring! Just observing, and it's not immediately obvious, particularly if the suspension is not at exactly the same level. Actually, that shot of my car doesn't really illustrate the point, as it's on a slope and a bump.Please help me understand what I can’t, for the life of me, see?
Rumdoodles 400
The 412 about to be auctioned
Not sure if these help
400
412
Edited by Rumdoodle on Friday 31st March 20:11
MGDavid said:
The issue with visibility of the front indicators may be high resistance in the circuit caused by dirty connections. If you have a multi meter and know how to use it you can check to see if that is the case.
Good point, thanks. I shall report back. It's due an MOT - its last ever! - and I think it'll have to be rectified before then. The next job was discs and pads all round. Straightforward stuff, although the cost of front discs, which are unique to this model - is now £1k each. Meantime, whittling the fleet down to one meant putting the remaining car up for sale, my Mercedes, which featured on a thread on here long ago. Now sold.
The number plate on the 400 is held on with sellotape there (classy!) but I've had some new ones made up since and fixed them properly.
When I came back in December, I was staying at a hotel in Old Windsor and realised that what used to be Maranello Sales was just down the road, so I pootled down and took a photo
My car was a Maranello demonstrator for the first year of its life, so it was familiar ground. You can see in that shot the colour difference of the front indicators.
With new brakes to complement the new tyres, she was gliding along beautifully. The only snag was the offside electric window motor packing up mid-afternoon on Christmas Eve, necessitating the removal of the doorcard and the manual adjustment of the glass just in time for the darkness and rain. This was all done outside and was easy enough. Everything came out intact except a few plastic clips that probably weren't designed to withstand removal. The last time the doorcard had been off, the doorframe had been sealed with a bin bag and tank tape, which had done a good job. It was a useful opportunity to inspect the state of the door and it was a bit grubby but completely intact with no corrosion around the drainholes and base. As of today, it's still not fixed as the parts are unobtainable new. I'm hoping my friendly local specialist can improvise a repair. The older cars were supplied with a handle that could be inserted into a hole in the doorcard as a manual crank back-up, but I don't have one and I wonder if they had dispensed with that by the time of the 400i. Anyway, the glass is intact and we'll get it sorted.
Went out to a New Year's Day meet at Stony Stratford
and evoked the music video of Pizza Guy by Touch Sensitive https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uXrXTSASK0
and then had a nice morning at the January Bicester Scramble.
5 In a Row said:
PR350 said:
I absolutely adore the 400i/412 and was lucky enough to be driven in one many moons ago. A genuinely beautiful car to my eyes.
I was an avid reader of "Fast Lane" back in the day and remember reading an article where the editor (Peter Dron?) had a RHD 412 with a manual 'box and - although I'm older and suffer from brain fog much more now - seem to recall something in the article about the 4-valve heads of the Testarossa being a direct swap for the 412 although the TR was a boxer 12 and not a Vee everything else was the same - something prompts a memory of a 50ish bhp gain in theory. I may have dreamt this, but always, always wanted a 400i/412 and in dreamland it came with a TR head and a manual 'box
Looking forward to the continuing tales of this fantastic machine OP, you're a very lucky chap imho.
The one tested by Fast Lane was black and, as you say, had a manual box.I was an avid reader of "Fast Lane" back in the day and remember reading an article where the editor (Peter Dron?) had a RHD 412 with a manual 'box and - although I'm older and suffer from brain fog much more now - seem to recall something in the article about the 4-valve heads of the Testarossa being a direct swap for the 412 although the TR was a boxer 12 and not a Vee everything else was the same - something prompts a memory of a 50ish bhp gain in theory. I may have dreamt this, but always, always wanted a 400i/412 and in dreamland it came with a TR head and a manual 'box
Looking forward to the continuing tales of this fantastic machine OP, you're a very lucky chap imho.
I've just rediscovered my old Fast Lanes while clearing out my parents house. It's hard not to sit and read them instead of doing something more constructive!
As the car is in storage at the moment awaiting a major service and fettling next month before intensive use in June when I am back, here's a bit of background.
I nearly bought a 400 a few years ago, but instead felt compelled to explore the mystique of something else from the early ‘80s Observer’s Book of Automobiles, a publication that had both captivated and frozen my imagination regarding cars I really wanted. Monstrously expensive to buy new, handmade and never glimpsed in the wild – either a turbocharged Bristol, an AM Lagonda wedge, or a Bitter. The Bristol and the Bitter were both hybrids, in the old sense of the term. Lazy, simple engines from volume manufacturers, powering cars intended to challenge the appeal and mitigate the agonies of exotic Italian throughbreds. They were usually a little more discreet externally and less well finished internally. None of the hybrid marques survived though, while most of the thoroughbreds did, although obviously absorbed into parent companies. Bristol, Bitter, De Tomaso, Jensen, ISO vs. Aston Martin, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Jaguar, Maserati. For a useable classic, a hybrid might make a tolerable compromise, I thought.
The Bristols were a lot of fun to drive, obviously singularly appalling to look at.
As I’ve mentioned before, I can’t be bothered managing a fleet of cars – if I could I’d have a Bristol for some occasions, but would need something more soothing to look at the rest of the time. I did like the look of the owners' club, though, and thought it would be a really fun crowd to be part of.
The Bitter has value as a curio. It’s like a louche Matra. I have great respect for Erich Bitter, who I have spoken to and hoped to meet but could not because the pandemic derailed the European Bitter Club events that I intended to go to. But the car itself was really only interesting to look at. It had no intrinsic virtues over the Opel it was based on, and it totally failed as an alternative to the Italian GT cars it was intended to be an alternative to.
When it was going well, it sounded awesome and was quite amusing, but the coachbuilding was ropey and these days no garages can actually look after these simple, flawed and antiquated Opel engines, much less so the handful of stroked 3.9 units that Bitter commissioned. In the last couple of years, a workshop in Germany has monopolised the tiny amount of Bitter restoration work needed globally, and I was in touch with them about doing the bodywork on mine before I decided I couldn’t be bothered and moved it on. At the end of the day, I’d still just have a Bitter, and it just didn’t seem interesting enough.
Shortly after I bought the Bitter, I made the mistake of trying out Tipo 101 Ferraris (i.e. the 400 shape), and immediately realised that the hybrid compromise wasn’t for me. The looks, the performance, the heritage – it all made sense.
The Bitter is very smart in isolation
but next to the Ferrari
You can buy a good Aston V8 for the price of a mint Interceptor, and a 400 Ferrari for less than pretty much any De Tomaso. Obviously, aesthetics can trump other factors disproportionately and that is subjective, but, me, there is a chasm between the hybrid and the real thing.
I nearly bought a 400 a few years ago, but instead felt compelled to explore the mystique of something else from the early ‘80s Observer’s Book of Automobiles, a publication that had both captivated and frozen my imagination regarding cars I really wanted. Monstrously expensive to buy new, handmade and never glimpsed in the wild – either a turbocharged Bristol, an AM Lagonda wedge, or a Bitter. The Bristol and the Bitter were both hybrids, in the old sense of the term. Lazy, simple engines from volume manufacturers, powering cars intended to challenge the appeal and mitigate the agonies of exotic Italian throughbreds. They were usually a little more discreet externally and less well finished internally. None of the hybrid marques survived though, while most of the thoroughbreds did, although obviously absorbed into parent companies. Bristol, Bitter, De Tomaso, Jensen, ISO vs. Aston Martin, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Jaguar, Maserati. For a useable classic, a hybrid might make a tolerable compromise, I thought.
The Bristols were a lot of fun to drive, obviously singularly appalling to look at.
As I’ve mentioned before, I can’t be bothered managing a fleet of cars – if I could I’d have a Bristol for some occasions, but would need something more soothing to look at the rest of the time. I did like the look of the owners' club, though, and thought it would be a really fun crowd to be part of.
The Bitter has value as a curio. It’s like a louche Matra. I have great respect for Erich Bitter, who I have spoken to and hoped to meet but could not because the pandemic derailed the European Bitter Club events that I intended to go to. But the car itself was really only interesting to look at. It had no intrinsic virtues over the Opel it was based on, and it totally failed as an alternative to the Italian GT cars it was intended to be an alternative to.
When it was going well, it sounded awesome and was quite amusing, but the coachbuilding was ropey and these days no garages can actually look after these simple, flawed and antiquated Opel engines, much less so the handful of stroked 3.9 units that Bitter commissioned. In the last couple of years, a workshop in Germany has monopolised the tiny amount of Bitter restoration work needed globally, and I was in touch with them about doing the bodywork on mine before I decided I couldn’t be bothered and moved it on. At the end of the day, I’d still just have a Bitter, and it just didn’t seem interesting enough.
Shortly after I bought the Bitter, I made the mistake of trying out Tipo 101 Ferraris (i.e. the 400 shape), and immediately realised that the hybrid compromise wasn’t for me. The looks, the performance, the heritage – it all made sense.
The Bitter is very smart in isolation
but next to the Ferrari
You can buy a good Aston V8 for the price of a mint Interceptor, and a 400 Ferrari for less than pretty much any De Tomaso. Obviously, aesthetics can trump other factors disproportionately and that is subjective, but, me, there is a chasm between the hybrid and the real thing.
sean ie3 said:
I remember seeing a Bitter at auction, owned by a fella from Earth Wind and Fire, Erol Brown, maybe. Came with a a stroked/bored Vauxhall /Opel six cylinder, certainly a exotic looking car. As you say, I'll take the 400.
edit : Errol Brown, Hot Chocolate.
There was a very successful singer who owned one. I'll have to dig out my notes about the RHD cars. I didn't think it was someone quite as prominent as Errol Brown, but you may well be right.edit : Errol Brown, Hot Chocolate.
Edited by sean ie3 on Saturday 22 April 22:42
The other major influence, apart from the Observer's Book of Cars, was of course the film Rain Man. Tom Cruise's character imported Lamborghinis, but drove a 400. Because he's a boss...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7a4f3qxRezU
projectgt said:
Keep the updates coming.
I think a lot of us are living through your rather brave motoring choice that we would probably all rather like to indulge in.
Bravo.
P.S. wouldn’t it be fascinating to know who bought this kind of motor new.
Cheers! I shall. Won't be anything for a few weeks, but some adventures planned for June. Then, in September, a couple of thousand miles taking in the annual classic event at the Circuit des Remparts in Angouleme, the Schlumpf Collection in Mulhouse, and a weekend with the European F400 Club in Deauville, wherever that is....To avoid a continental re-enactment of my "Failed in Wales" trip, the car will be prepped to long-distance rally standards, and I think it'll be a spiffing way to see out the summer.I think a lot of us are living through your rather brave motoring choice that we would probably all rather like to indulge in.
Bravo.
P.S. wouldn’t it be fascinating to know who bought this kind of motor new.
I do have a full history of the ownership of this car and it would be nice to see if the previous owners, or their families, might care to see it again and share some memories. I have had some responses and will report back.
Meantime, although it appears to have spent most of the past couple of decades in storage, it did make its way to Monaco at some point. It took a while for me to ID the rather plain looking green car in front - not my bag, but worth a fortune, apparently
Quite an interesting ongoing series about fitting a modern Ferrari V12 engine to a 412
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4wfG_9rpsY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4wfG_9rpsY
simonas2702 said:
I am loving this post, just discovered it and read through it all. Your Ferrari is stunning and as someone whos ambition is to own a ferrari one day even just for a short time this has just come right up near the top of my list
Thanks! Glad it's of interest. There are a lot of useful threads about this model on the Ferrarichat forum. Actually, for any model, it's a great resource for insight into ownership. I didn't think it would be quite this much fun, but, as I may have mentioned previously, that engine.....fantastic.
1275 GT said:
I can't believe I missed this when you first posted!
Absolutely love the car, and really enjoyed your write-up.
I'm not the biggest Ferrari fan, but the 400 is really something that I've really lusted after, I think it's really matured into its look over the last few years. (I'll avoid the SD1 styling similarities
)
I actually saw a blue example (not sure if it was a 400 or 412) locally and damn it looks good on the road!
I sadly didn't take my camera to the January Scramble!
Hopefully I'll catch you at another event, as I'd love to have a proper look!
Joe
Thanks. Likewise. The Rover is wonderful. My father had a couple of them in the '80s, including a white VDP with brown leather. That must have been an influence on me. I'm sure we'll bump into each other at some point. I'll keep an eye out for the Vitesse. I'll be at Bicester on the Sunday of the Flywheel event, which will mark one year of ownership. It's gone quickly. I must be enjoying myself!Absolutely love the car, and really enjoyed your write-up.
I'm not the biggest Ferrari fan, but the 400 is really something that I've really lusted after, I think it's really matured into its look over the last few years. (I'll avoid the SD1 styling similarities
) I actually saw a blue example (not sure if it was a 400 or 412) locally and damn it looks good on the road!
I sadly didn't take my camera to the January Scramble!
Hopefully I'll catch you at another event, as I'd love to have a proper look!
Joe
carinaman said:
sidewinder500 said:
NomduJour said:
Jeeeesus!!!!Now into year two of ownership, and it has been very disappointing - if the expectation was a non-stop orgy of bork. It passed its last ever MOT with no advisories. It's run fine in the hot weather, but it's toasty with no ventilation, so fixing that will have to be prioritised before the 2000 mile French trip later this year. I'll post up some more interesting photos shortly of various "quirks and features". In the meantime, a year to the day since I bought it, I took it to Bicester Flywheel this morning
(891VHX was a very well-finished replica of some kind.)
I'd only been to Scramble events before, and this had some planes and some fairly tame driving demos in a nice variety of cars. Absolutely excellent organisation and a very nice crowd. It really is a superb facility.
(891VHX was a very well-finished replica of some kind.)
I'd only been to Scramble events before, and this had some planes and some fairly tame driving demos in a nice variety of cars. Absolutely excellent organisation and a very nice crowd. It really is a superb facility.
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