1991 Toyota MR2 Mk2 V6 3VZ-FE Upgrade (hopefully)
Discussion
Greetings fellow PH'ers!
For some reason my brother decided that his MR2 (already quite quick) needed a V6 lumping in. While saving up for the bits he needed he wanted to deposit his car in my now vacated garage (recently parted with my 928 S2 on PH!). I decided that instead of waiting for him to get rich, I would underwrite the project. Thats the kind of big brother i am.
So far we have sourced a pretty good 3VZ-FE from a Lexus ES300 (barge doesnt come close) which is now sat on a trolley in my garage. I think we have all the bits we need, but i wanted to share the whole experience as we have made good use of so many other forums and blogs to get this far, i'm hoping we can give a bit back through our own voyage of discovery.
We both have some fairly passable skills in a variety of disciplines, so i'm hoping that we can prove that this kind of thing is really idiot proof...
Chris (and Pat i guess....)
For some reason my brother decided that his MR2 (already quite quick) needed a V6 lumping in. While saving up for the bits he needed he wanted to deposit his car in my now vacated garage (recently parted with my 928 S2 on PH!). I decided that instead of waiting for him to get rich, I would underwrite the project. Thats the kind of big brother i am.
So far we have sourced a pretty good 3VZ-FE from a Lexus ES300 (barge doesnt come close) which is now sat on a trolley in my garage. I think we have all the bits we need, but i wanted to share the whole experience as we have made good use of so many other forums and blogs to get this far, i'm hoping we can give a bit back through our own voyage of discovery.
We both have some fairly passable skills in a variety of disciplines, so i'm hoping that we can prove that this kind of thing is really idiot proof...
Chris (and Pat i guess....)
Hey Speedracer!
That looks nice. If our car is anywhere near as shiny as that when it's done we will be most pleased!
Here's a couple of pics of the donor car.
The Lexus ES300 was a real find, reasonably low milage, and quite cheap considering what these engines go for. It does need a very good clean so a lot will probably end up being removed and painted pretty colours. We may also do a top end rebuild, although we are quite giddy to get the engine in so we might choose to take it back out at a later date and make some upgrades (cams and headwork etc). For now i think we will aim for a PASS rather than a DISTINCTION, or as i like to call it "walk before we run!".
We managed to get the engine out with a bit of a fight. With all the additional ancillaries that Lexus throw in it's a bit of a tight fit. Pat was very happy.....
The full list of what we removed (in case you are interested) is:-
The next step will be to source the required engine mount, flywheel & clutch components and of course change the cambelt, plugs and leads etc.
The rest of the car was scrapped (for cash!), which was a shame as it was near mint inside. We kept the wheels, light clusters and a couple of expensive looking bits that didnt take up too much precious garage space.
More to follow as it happens!
Chris.
That looks nice. If our car is anywhere near as shiny as that when it's done we will be most pleased!
Here's a couple of pics of the donor car.
The Lexus ES300 was a real find, reasonably low milage, and quite cheap considering what these engines go for. It does need a very good clean so a lot will probably end up being removed and painted pretty colours. We may also do a top end rebuild, although we are quite giddy to get the engine in so we might choose to take it back out at a later date and make some upgrades (cams and headwork etc). For now i think we will aim for a PASS rather than a DISTINCTION, or as i like to call it "walk before we run!".
We managed to get the engine out with a bit of a fight. With all the additional ancillaries that Lexus throw in it's a bit of a tight fit. Pat was very happy.....
The full list of what we removed (in case you are interested) is:-
- The engine and gearbox (gearbox was discarded)
- The engine wiring loom back to the engine ECU
- The components in the engine bay - coil pack / canister / fuse boxes
- The ECU with the all important 4th connector (the one that doesnt go to the engine harness)
- The instrument panel (need the rev counter board)
The next step will be to source the required engine mount, flywheel & clutch components and of course change the cambelt, plugs and leads etc.
The rest of the car was scrapped (for cash!), which was a shame as it was near mint inside. We kept the wheels, light clusters and a couple of expensive looking bits that didnt take up too much precious garage space.
More to follow as it happens!
Chris.
Good luck with the swap.
You won't find the top end shove will match the Turbo but it does make for an effortless to drive GT car. Suits the car much better IMO.
No doubt you're on twobrutal? What's the planned ETA for the swap? I'd concern myself with the painty/fancy stuff after you have got it in and running. Once that's done you've avoided having it on a stand for months and the enthusiasm for driving it rubs off and you do lots of TLC to the engine bay.
You won't find the top end shove will match the Turbo but it does make for an effortless to drive GT car. Suits the car much better IMO.
No doubt you're on twobrutal? What's the planned ETA for the swap? I'd concern myself with the painty/fancy stuff after you have got it in and running. Once that's done you've avoided having it on a stand for months and the enthusiasm for driving it rubs off and you do lots of TLC to the engine bay.
Ug_Lee!
Firstly let me just say that my brother and i have taken great interest in your 3.5 V6 swap. There have been several projects that have inspired and guided us thus far, yours being hign on the list.
twobrutal has been another good source of information, especially to see how people have taken slightly different routes to solve problems.
My brother and i have different ideas about timescales though. I was happy to spend the winter pottering away, but ever since my younger sibling read the rather bold statement that "you can do it in a weekend" he is keen to get it in and running ASAP. Given that he is in south wales and i'm in Northampton (with his beloved MR2) i think it will probably end up being sooner rather than later, especially if i'm paying for stuff!
Performance~wise, i didnt expect the V6 to out perform a 3S-GTE, and given that his 3S-GE is already quite tasty, i'm not sure that the performance will really blow anyone's socks off, but good golly i like the noise the V6 makes, and every video on YouTube i have seen seems to suggest that the torque output of the 3VZ-FE on that box in that car will not disappoint....
Soon as we get the MR2 done and out of my garage i can get back to my ZR160 > T16 upgrade....
Chris.
Firstly let me just say that my brother and i have taken great interest in your 3.5 V6 swap. There have been several projects that have inspired and guided us thus far, yours being hign on the list.
twobrutal has been another good source of information, especially to see how people have taken slightly different routes to solve problems.
My brother and i have different ideas about timescales though. I was happy to spend the winter pottering away, but ever since my younger sibling read the rather bold statement that "you can do it in a weekend" he is keen to get it in and running ASAP. Given that he is in south wales and i'm in Northampton (with his beloved MR2) i think it will probably end up being sooner rather than later, especially if i'm paying for stuff!
Performance~wise, i didnt expect the V6 to out perform a 3S-GTE, and given that his 3S-GE is already quite tasty, i'm not sure that the performance will really blow anyone's socks off, but good golly i like the noise the V6 makes, and every video on YouTube i have seen seems to suggest that the torque output of the 3VZ-FE on that box in that car will not disappoint....
Soon as we get the MR2 done and out of my garage i can get back to my ZR160 > T16 upgrade....
Chris.
Cheers fella, V6 is def the way forward 
You'll definitly notice a difference to the performance once done.
You might have what appears maybe a small horsepower advantage over the 3S-GE but the big increase in torque means the car accelerates with plenty more poke. I had the Turbo box on mine so apparently not ideal ratios/weight for pickup off the line but it still managed 14.5 Sec 1/4 mile on a shocking surface. I can't see a GE managing that sort of time.
It can be done in a weekend as there have been a few documented cases over the years AFAIK, but a bit of foresight and more importantly someone who has done it before certainly helps speed it along. Only thing that may slow it down is getting the head gaskets done. It's a no brainer while the engine is out as they are known for going over 100K. Either way you can do it pretty swiftly unlike my 8 month slog! lol
Good luck with it all chaps
You'll definitly notice a difference to the performance once done.
You might have what appears maybe a small horsepower advantage over the 3S-GE but the big increase in torque means the car accelerates with plenty more poke. I had the Turbo box on mine so apparently not ideal ratios/weight for pickup off the line but it still managed 14.5 Sec 1/4 mile on a shocking surface. I can't see a GE managing that sort of time.
It can be done in a weekend as there have been a few documented cases over the years AFAIK, but a bit of foresight and more importantly someone who has done it before certainly helps speed it along. Only thing that may slow it down is getting the head gaskets done. It's a no brainer while the engine is out as they are known for going over 100K. Either way you can do it pretty swiftly unlike my 8 month slog! lol
Good luck with it all chaps
Still arguing over flywheels at the moment.
There seems to be a lot of discussion over what will / wont fit. Seems that the 3VZ-E engine fitted to the Toyota 4Runner (Hilux Surf) 3.0 V6 manual will fit, but there must be other Toyota engines that used the same flywheel.
I think we will end up buying a couple and seeing what will actually fit.
After all; this is a voyage of discovery....
Chris.
There seems to be a lot of discussion over what will / wont fit. Seems that the 3VZ-E engine fitted to the Toyota 4Runner (Hilux Surf) 3.0 V6 manual will fit, but there must be other Toyota engines that used the same flywheel.
I think we will end up buying a couple and seeing what will actually fit.
After all; this is a voyage of discovery....
Chris.
Finally got round to registering.... :-) Yay!
As my sponsor (Big Bro) noted, we are having fun with the flywheel and clutch assembly at the moment.
From reading other forums, I believe generally people have gone for a 3VZ-E flywheel, MR2 Natural clutch & MR2T clutch plate and pressure plate....
Does anyone know if its possible to get the MR2 Natural flywheel adapted to fit the stud alignments on the 3VZ-FE engine AND fit the clutch assembly aswell? I know we can get the flywheel filled and redrilled to fit the 3VZ-FE engine but wasnt sure about the clutch and whether it was worthwhile or whether it would end up weakening it too much?
Any help from fellow PH's or the like would be greatly appreciated.
Pat
As my sponsor (Big Bro) noted, we are having fun with the flywheel and clutch assembly at the moment.
From reading other forums, I believe generally people have gone for a 3VZ-E flywheel, MR2 Natural clutch & MR2T clutch plate and pressure plate....
Does anyone know if its possible to get the MR2 Natural flywheel adapted to fit the stud alignments on the 3VZ-FE engine AND fit the clutch assembly aswell? I know we can get the flywheel filled and redrilled to fit the 3VZ-FE engine but wasnt sure about the clutch and whether it was worthwhile or whether it would end up weakening it too much?
Any help from fellow PH's or the like would be greatly appreciated.
Pat
I think you'd be pushing the n/a clutch pressure plate to the limit of its holding capacity with the V6 torque. It's much easier to get the flywheel adapted and going with n/a friction plate and turbo pressure plate.
Are you using a Fidanza or stock Turbo flywheel? Both are easily machined to fit the crank.
edit- you stated 3VZ-E carefully check your part numbers as I have never heard of anyone using this flywheel. If you want to do it cheaply, get 2nd hand stock Turbo flywheel and get it machined, job done
Are you using a Fidanza or stock Turbo flywheel? Both are easily machined to fit the crank.
edit- you stated 3VZ-E carefully check your part numbers as I have never heard of anyone using this flywheel. If you want to do it cheaply, get 2nd hand stock Turbo flywheel and get it machined, job done
Edited by Ug_lee on Tuesday 28th September 23:02
Ug_Lee!
I think that was pats question really - we have found some wildly conflicting information regarding what will or wont fit.
Ideally we need a 3VZ-FE M/T flywheel - but this is a rare item as the cars with that engine were never sold with M/T in this country by all accounts.
A couple of reports suggest that buying one in the US and shipping it over isnt price-prohibitive, but during our research we have found that a flywheel that fits a 3VZ-FE will also fit a 3VZ-E. That engine WAS sold in this country in a Toyota 4Runner (Hilux Surf) 3.0 V6 format, and probably others.
Pat thinks that if we get the standard flywheel from the MR2 welded and re-machined, we can use the MR2 clutch parts. I'm not entirely sure it would be any cheaper in the long run than sourcing the right flywheel.
To be honest we had not thought about the power going through it. Pat reckons that the clutch in his MR2 is non-standard, and tbh, it has taken a damn good spanking and still seems fine.
Chris.
I think that was pats question really - we have found some wildly conflicting information regarding what will or wont fit.
Ideally we need a 3VZ-FE M/T flywheel - but this is a rare item as the cars with that engine were never sold with M/T in this country by all accounts.
A couple of reports suggest that buying one in the US and shipping it over isnt price-prohibitive, but during our research we have found that a flywheel that fits a 3VZ-FE will also fit a 3VZ-E. That engine WAS sold in this country in a Toyota 4Runner (Hilux Surf) 3.0 V6 format, and probably others.
Pat thinks that if we get the standard flywheel from the MR2 welded and re-machined, we can use the MR2 clutch parts. I'm not entirely sure it would be any cheaper in the long run than sourcing the right flywheel.
To be honest we had not thought about the power going through it. Pat reckons that the clutch in his MR2 is non-standard, and tbh, it has taken a damn good spanking and still seems fine.
Chris.
Good luck lads - I too am planning to embark on a V6 swap sometime over the next year or so, currently househunting and I've convinced the Mrs that a garage is a necessity, so as soon as we move I can finally commence! Had the bloody MR2 sitting on the driveway since June doing nothing (head gasket failure bought on ebay for £180).
Hi OwenK,
We will be sure to keep you posted on how we get on - it's always easier to learn from other peoples mistakes, erm i mean experiences....Pat wants to write a manual. I'm not sure that we should encourage people as stupid as us to try this, but it might make for good comedy reading. We will probably write some of it in casualty, i hear the wait is quite long....
Started buying supplies - cambelt, plugs, got hold of an engine stand so we can work on the engine without it swinging in the wind.
The MR2 is likely coming off the road this weekend, as it has developed a slight water leak in a stupid place. We would like the old engine to have some resale value, so i guess that means we start work on the swap!
Chris
(No idea where Pat is....)
We will be sure to keep you posted on how we get on - it's always easier to learn from other peoples mistakes, erm i mean experiences....Pat wants to write a manual. I'm not sure that we should encourage people as stupid as us to try this, but it might make for good comedy reading. We will probably write some of it in casualty, i hear the wait is quite long....
Started buying supplies - cambelt, plugs, got hold of an engine stand so we can work on the engine without it swinging in the wind.
The MR2 is likely coming off the road this weekend, as it has developed a slight water leak in a stupid place. We would like the old engine to have some resale value, so i guess that means we start work on the swap!
Chris
(No idea where Pat is....)
Hiya, sorry for the late reply I'm stuck out working in Trinidad at the moment.
For your flywheel/clutch options I would steer away from the 3VZ-E flywheel route. You'd maybe be limited to fitting the n/a pressure plate (although willing to be corrected o that). People do use n/a pressure plates but it's on the edge of torque capacity and probably lead to a short clutch life. As far as i know the n/a flywheel cannot be machined to fit the 3VZ crank.
Get a wanted post on IMOC or MR2oc.co.uk for a stock Turbo flywheel (prob around £20) and get in touch with a chap on Twobrutal called Fourveesix who will machine it to fit the 3VZ crank (around £25 I think it costs)
With the turbo flywheel fitted to the crank you can then fit the turbo pressure plate. You still use the n/a friction plate as this matches the splines on the s54 gearbox. It's a bit of a mish mash of parts but has worked well with decent torque capacity over a stock n/a clutch.
I'm a bit tired and probably rambled a bit but hope that makes sense?
Bascially: machined turbo flywheel+N/A friction plate+turbo pressure plate= Job done
For your flywheel/clutch options I would steer away from the 3VZ-E flywheel route. You'd maybe be limited to fitting the n/a pressure plate (although willing to be corrected o that). People do use n/a pressure plates but it's on the edge of torque capacity and probably lead to a short clutch life. As far as i know the n/a flywheel cannot be machined to fit the 3VZ crank.
Get a wanted post on IMOC or MR2oc.co.uk for a stock Turbo flywheel (prob around £20) and get in touch with a chap on Twobrutal called Fourveesix who will machine it to fit the 3VZ crank (around £25 I think it costs)
With the turbo flywheel fitted to the crank you can then fit the turbo pressure plate. You still use the n/a friction plate as this matches the splines on the s54 gearbox. It's a bit of a mish mash of parts but has worked well with decent torque capacity over a stock n/a clutch.
I'm a bit tired and probably rambled a bit but hope that makes sense?
Bascially: machined turbo flywheel+N/A friction plate+turbo pressure plate= Job done
Edited by Ug_lee on Sunday 3rd October 01:26
Trinidad eh? Bet it's not hoofing it down there!
Thanks for the advice, i will have a look in the morning when i'm more awake.
From what we have read people have gone various routes including fitting a 3VZ-E / 3VZ-FE flywheel, turbo PP and standard clutch.
We will take your advice though and see what we can turn up - availability seems to be a constraint here but we would like to be able to use a setup that we can replicate if we need to replace parts at some point.
Started removing unwanted bits from the engine today and removing the harness so we can get at the heads / gaskets change etc. That standard mount (the one we need to replace) weighs the same as a goddam house brick. Thankfully theres a lot of scrap we dont need on this engine, the brackets for the power steering and aircon pumps are not light either!
Pics to follow...
Chris.
Thanks for the advice, i will have a look in the morning when i'm more awake.
From what we have read people have gone various routes including fitting a 3VZ-E / 3VZ-FE flywheel, turbo PP and standard clutch.
We will take your advice though and see what we can turn up - availability seems to be a constraint here but we would like to be able to use a setup that we can replicate if we need to replace parts at some point.
Started removing unwanted bits from the engine today and removing the harness so we can get at the heads / gaskets change etc. That standard mount (the one we need to replace) weighs the same as a goddam house brick. Thankfully theres a lot of scrap we dont need on this engine, the brackets for the power steering and aircon pumps are not light either!
Pics to follow...
Chris.
Got stuck into clearing down the engine loom this weekend so we can get at the heads, and despite best efforts to pressure was the engine when we tugged it from the Lexus barge, it's still covered in crap. The car was in storage for a while, and i suspect rats were living on the engine. They didnt do the engine any good.
Thankfully it's all quite superficial, and a few minutes with a wire brush on the drill brought the metal up quite nice.
The only downside is that we are probably going to end up rebuilding everything but the block. Will probably get a full gasket set and do the sump while we are at it.
Little tip for anyone thinking about doing this or similar - i got a roll of masking tape and a sharpie marker and tagged every cable connector (and some of the plumbing) when i pulled the loom off the engine. There is a lot on this engine, so it seemed like a good idea.
Next step will be removing the intake manifold and the heads and getting everything cleaned up and new gaskets between everything.
Stay tuned!
Chris (and Pat somewhere)
Thankfully it's all quite superficial, and a few minutes with a wire brush on the drill brought the metal up quite nice.
The only downside is that we are probably going to end up rebuilding everything but the block. Will probably get a full gasket set and do the sump while we are at it.
Little tip for anyone thinking about doing this or similar - i got a roll of masking tape and a sharpie marker and tagged every cable connector (and some of the plumbing) when i pulled the loom off the engine. There is a lot on this engine, so it seemed like a good idea.
Next step will be removing the intake manifold and the heads and getting everything cleaned up and new gaskets between everything.
Stay tuned!
Chris (and Pat somewhere)
Well, what started out as an engine swap has now pretty much turned into a top end rebuild.
We kind of knew we had to do the head gaskets, but the cleanup of the various bits in the process has taken quite a few man hours.
Still havent got the heads off, will probably wait for Pat this weekend as he doesnt want to be left out!
Project is still fairly on target, the only bits left to sort are the flywheel / clutch combo and a set of plug leads.
We will probably get the MR2 engine out this weekend and then try and get someone to welf~fill and re-drill it.
More to follow (hopefully!)
Chris (& Pat!)
We kind of knew we had to do the head gaskets, but the cleanup of the various bits in the process has taken quite a few man hours.
Still havent got the heads off, will probably wait for Pat this weekend as he doesnt want to be left out!
Project is still fairly on target, the only bits left to sort are the flywheel / clutch combo and a set of plug leads.
We will probably get the MR2 engine out this weekend and then try and get someone to welf~fill and re-drill it.
More to follow (hopefully!)
Chris (& Pat!)
Well after some fighting the engine is out. Looks like it's sold already which will help further offset the V6 upgrade bill!
Took a bit of video before we pulled it:-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuX5a7tEx8Q
)
Took a bit of video before we pulled it:-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuX5a7tEx8Q
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