500+bhp Mk3 Fiesta Project
Discussion
Thank you. Anything is possible when you have a welder 
The S Brace was fitted to RS models and bolts between the lower arm mounting points, it's made from two pieces of 3.5mm steel so is perfect for the job.
You are correct, the original Fiesta gearbox mounts to a cradle that runs from the floor pan to the front cross member. This is now in the bin
The S Brace was fitted to RS models and bolts between the lower arm mounting points, it's made from two pieces of 3.5mm steel so is perfect for the job.
You are correct, the original Fiesta gearbox mounts to a cradle that runs from the floor pan to the front cross member. This is now in the bin
Ponk said:
It's quite frustrating as a non Ford owner reading how easy it is to mix and match parts between different cars/engines Wish Peugeot had been even half as helpful!
Is that S brace designed to be used as a gearbox mount? The mk3's usually use a cross member IIRC.
Great build by the way!
Pah! I've got a citroen gearbox and engine in my 205 as we speak! PSA are pretty good for cross pollination! Wish Peugeot had been even half as helpful! Is that S brace designed to be used as a gearbox mount? The mk3's usually use a cross member IIRC.
Great build by the way!
shalmaneser said:
Pah! I've got a citroen gearbox and engine in my 205 as we speak! PSA are pretty good for cross pollination!
Hardly the same. With the Fords you can fit pretty much any engine to any gearbox to any car. You can't fit an XU engine (which i'm assuming you have nicked from a Xsara VTS?) or most BE gearboxes to an AX or 106. Plus there's simply not the same kind of engine choice as the Ford boys get. Anyway, this is a discussion for another thread.
Ponk said:
Furry muff! I've been helping a friend fit a 2.1 ZVH (Zetec bottom end/CVH head) to his RS Turbo Fiesta. T3 or 4 turbo(can't remember) should be good for an easy 250bhp.
I'm guessing your ballpark is nearer 400-450?
I should imagine it’s a T3 as the T4 in any trim isn’t really suited to the Zetec. I’m not a big fan of the ZVH conversion as I would rather keep the 16v head. If the old CVH head is being kept for ease of installation then this can be achieved by fitting the CVH manifolds to the Zetec head by using adapter plates. It’s not an ideal solution but has been proven up to 350bhp. I'm guessing your ballpark is nearer 400-450?
My flywheel BHP will be a minimum of 500bhp, but I’m expecting closer to 550bhp knowing how Ian specs and quotes power figures.
Ponk said:
Hardly the same. With the Fords you can fit pretty much any engine to any gearbox to any car. You can't fit an XU engine (which i'm assuming you have nicked from a Xsara VTS?) or most BE gearboxes to an AX or 106. Plus there's simply not the same kind of engine choice as the Ford boys get.
This is a bit of a generalisation. There was a uniform bell housing bolt pattern used from the 70’s to mid 90’s, but this changed around 1995 and started to become engine specific (like mine). There does have to be an element of modularisation used by all manufacturers in order to keep costs down.My project here is the worst case scenario i.e. no original fixing points left in the bay, so it’s custom engine & gearbox mounts, and custom drive shafts. I could be fitting a 4cyl BMW engine for example, as there wouldn’t be any different or extra work involved.
You have the 2.0 Mi16 engine, don’t you? I gather that is very good. I’ve also seen the PSA V6 in a 205.
Where would one buy these adapter plates for bolting CVH stuff to zetec heads? it's just that my 2.1 zetec conversion has stalled a bit due to some muppetry from the engineering shop that has resulted in a scrap head, a new head is being sourced atm, but adapters would be ideal for me and save needing to get new studs fitted.
Greg_D said:
Where would one buy these adapter plates for bolting CVH stuff to zetec heads? it's just that my 2.1 zetec conversion has stalled a bit due to some muppetry from the engineering shop that has resulted in a scrap head, a new head is being sourced atm, but adapters would be ideal for me and save needing to get new studs fitted.
Hi Greg - don't tell me, exhaust studs to suit a CVH bolt pattern? I used this method in my first Zetec Turbo build but never again. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone.http://www.ferriday.co.uk/cnc/manifold.shtml
mwstewart said:
Greg_D said:
Where would one buy these adapter plates for bolting CVH stuff to zetec heads? it's just that my 2.1 zetec conversion has stalled a bit due to some muppetry from the engineering shop that has resulted in a scrap head, a new head is being sourced atm, but adapters would be ideal for me and save needing to get new studs fitted.
Hi Greg - don't tell me, exhaust studs to suit a CVH bolt pattern? I used this method in my first Zetec Turbo build but never again. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone.http://www.ferriday.co.uk/cnc/manifold.shtml
Thanks for the link
mwstewart said:
Ponk said:
Furry muff! I've been helping a friend fit a 2.1 ZVH (Zetec bottom end/CVH head) to his RS Turbo Fiesta. T3 or 4 turbo(can't remember) should be good for an easy 250bhp.
I'm guessing your ballpark is nearer 400-450?
I should imagine it’s a T3 as the T4 in any trim isn’t really suited to the Zetec. I’m not a big fan of the ZVH conversion as I would rather keep the 16v head. If the old CVH head is being kept for ease of installation then this can be achieved by fitting the CVH manifolds to the Zetec head by using adapter plates. It’s not an ideal solution but has been proven up to 350bhp. I'm guessing your ballpark is nearer 400-450?
My flywheel BHP will be a minimum of 500bhp, but I’m expecting closer to 550bhp knowing how Ian specs and quotes power figures.
Ponk said:
Hardly the same. With the Fords you can fit pretty much any engine to any gearbox to any car. You can't fit an XU engine (which i'm assuming you have nicked from a Xsara VTS?) or most BE gearboxes to an AX or 106. Plus there's simply not the same kind of engine choice as the Ford boys get.
This is a bit of a generalisation. There was a uniform bell housing bolt pattern used from the 70’s to mid 90’s, but this changed around 1995 and started to become engine specific (like mine). There does have to be an element of modularisation used by all manufacturers in order to keep costs down.My project here is the worst case scenario i.e. no original fixing points left in the bay, so it’s custom engine & gearbox mounts, and custom drive shafts. I could be fitting a 4cyl BMW engine for example, as there wouldn’t be any different or extra work involved.
You have the 2.0 Mi16 engine, don’t you? I gather that is very good. I’ve also seen the PSA V6 in a 205.
The larger PSA engines car be switched about. But the AX, 106 and Saxo will only take the TU series engines. You can do what you are doing and weld in mounts for the bigger engines but i've yet to see one done properly. Even then it would ruin the handling as it sticks way out the front.
In my case i've swapped in the 16v engine from the Gti/VTS and supercharged it. 205bhp at the moment but there should be plenty more to come once I sort the fueling problems and get the charger ratio right.
Parts update.
PAS Pump bracket and water pump pulleys, Focus RS (right) and standard (left). The FRS pump is driven at a higher crank ratio than the standard pump due to a smaller diameter pulley, and the PAS bracket is required to clear the larger FRS water pump body.
New Focus RS gear cables, 'lift up reverse' collar and short-shift gear mechanism.
Focus RS cam cover heat shield, oil breather heat shield, and water rail.
I also collected the new wheels. Tyre choice is Eagle F1 195/45/16
Even though the crank driven HPAS pump fits I have decided to use an EHPAS system, because I like the idea of a)reduced parasitic drag on the engine, and b) more weight shifted to the rear of the car. The pump will be mounted in the boot along with the dry sump tank, fuel system, and battery.
PAS Pump bracket and water pump pulleys, Focus RS (right) and standard (left). The FRS pump is driven at a higher crank ratio than the standard pump due to a smaller diameter pulley, and the PAS bracket is required to clear the larger FRS water pump body.
New Focus RS gear cables, 'lift up reverse' collar and short-shift gear mechanism.
Focus RS cam cover heat shield, oil breather heat shield, and water rail.
I also collected the new wheels. Tyre choice is Eagle F1 195/45/16
Even though the crank driven HPAS pump fits I have decided to use an EHPAS system, because I like the idea of a)reduced parasitic drag on the engine, and b) more weight shifted to the rear of the car. The pump will be mounted in the boot along with the dry sump tank, fuel system, and battery.
mwstewart said:
Parts update.
Even though the crank driven HPAS pump fits I have decided to use an EHPAS system, because I like the idea of a)reduced parasitic drag on the engine, and b) more weight shifted to the rear of the car. The pump will be mounted in the boot along with the dry sump tank, fuel system, and battery.
If thats a TRW Gen 3 EHPAS unit, you'll have to hack the CAN to make it work properly..........Even though the crank driven HPAS pump fits I have decided to use an EHPAS system, because I like the idea of a)reduced parasitic drag on the engine, and b) more weight shifted to the rear of the car. The pump will be mounted in the boot along with the dry sump tank, fuel system, and battery.
(luckily that's quite easy ;-)
(although with your FoMoCo contacts you might be able to russle up the CAN .db file for the car it came off, which would make things a lot easier)
Max_Torque said:
If thats a TRW Gen 3 EHPAS unit, you'll have to hack the CAN to make it work properly..........
(luckily that's quite easy ;-)
(although with your FoMoCo contacts you might be able to russle up the CAN .db file for the car it came off, which would make things a lot easier)
Ahh, thank you. I checked the wiring diagrams before buying this and I found the following info on the Internet:(luckily that's quite easy ;-)
(although with your FoMoCo contacts you might be able to russle up the CAN .db file for the car it came off, which would make things a lot easier)
[*]The triple left side connector controls both the side aim headlamps, and ties in to steering limits for the ABS and ESP.
[*]The same goes for the low level triple power circuit on the right side.
[*]The centre is POWER earth and Live running a required boost of 14 volts, live only when the the engine is running. The left from the front is earth and right is live. They feed into a capacitor that stores high voltage in order to drive a high end winding that sits at the bottom of the unit in a ally dry case. Above this is a sealed oil is reservoir that is directly linked to the pump .
[*]The top and bottom are separate and the weakness in these pumps is that the motor locks at the lower bearing due to ingress of moisture .
My aim was to get this working with only +ve and neg, assuming that the level of assistance provided was fixed. I wanted to avoid the usual Saxo type pump as it looks a bit agriculutral and this Ford unit looks like a far better piece of engineering
I moved on from Dunton/Ford a few months ago now. Bearing in mind that I won't have CAN in the Fiesta can this pump be made to work?
Bespoke front cross member to increase room ahead of the engine so that I can fit a large Intercooler and radiator.
The standard front end with a cosmetic metal valance that is exposed on lower spec models.
Behind the valance is a box section cross member made from pressed 1mm sheet:
The Si has a deep front bumper and so the valance is superfluous. I removed the valance along with the original cross member:
Removed:
The material of choice for the new crossmember is 30mm diameter, 3mm wall CDS tube. The standard cross member is on the left, and the CDS on the right:
I had the CDS bent to my spec, and fabricated some brackets at each end along with matching brackets & captive fittings on the shell:
Bolted in (I'm not yet finished: there will be four more fixings added):
For added protection against grounding I let the new cross member sit 10mm below the bottom edge of the bumper.
The result is a great deal of space (in Fiesta terms) liberated at the front end, both in terms of depth and length. I can even trim 20mm from the rear face of the bumper and still the car would look standard from the outside.
The standard front end with a cosmetic metal valance that is exposed on lower spec models.
Behind the valance is a box section cross member made from pressed 1mm sheet:
The Si has a deep front bumper and so the valance is superfluous. I removed the valance along with the original cross member:
Removed:
The material of choice for the new crossmember is 30mm diameter, 3mm wall CDS tube. The standard cross member is on the left, and the CDS on the right:
I had the CDS bent to my spec, and fabricated some brackets at each end along with matching brackets & captive fittings on the shell:
Bolted in (I'm not yet finished: there will be four more fixings added):
For added protection against grounding I let the new cross member sit 10mm below the bottom edge of the bumper.
The result is a great deal of space (in Fiesta terms) liberated at the front end, both in terms of depth and length. I can even trim 20mm from the rear face of the bumper and still the car would look standard from the outside.
mwstewart said:
Max_Torque said:
If thats a TRW Gen 3 EHPAS unit, you'll have to hack the CAN to make it work properly..........
(luckily that's quite easy ;-)
(although with your FoMoCo contacts you might be able to russle up the CAN .db file for the car it came off, which would make things a lot easier)
Ahh, thank you. I checked the wiring diagrams before buying this and I found the following info on the Internet:(luckily that's quite easy ;-)
(although with your FoMoCo contacts you might be able to russle up the CAN .db file for the car it came off, which would make things a lot easier)
[*]The triple left side connector controls both the side aim headlamps, and ties in to steering limits for the ABS and ESP.
[*]The same goes for the low level triple power circuit on the right side.
[*]The centre is POWER earth and Live running a required boost of 14 volts, live only when the the engine is running. The left from the front is earth and right is live. They feed into a capacitor that stores high voltage in order to drive a high end winding that sits at the bottom of the unit in a ally dry case. Above this is a sealed oil is reservoir that is directly linked to the pump .
[*]The top and bottom are separate and the weakness in these pumps is that the motor locks at the lower bearing due to ingress of moisture .
My aim was to get this working with only +ve and neg, assuming that the level of assistance provided was fixed. I wanted to avoid the usual Saxo type pump as it looks a bit agriculutral and this Ford unit looks like a far better piece of engineering
I moved on from Dunton/Ford a few months ago now. Bearing in mind that I won't have CAN in the Fiesta can this pump be made to work?
The Gen3 TRW pump will need a CAN signal to run it unfortunately. (some people using the old Gen2 version say that it will run in a "limp" mode with just power connected (i.e. when it doesn't get any load signals off CAN, it defaults to running at a fixed meduim speed) My gen3 version does exactly nothing if you just power it........
I made a little controller that requests a pump speed based on vehicle speed, handwheel rate and a "mode" selector, giving me 3 choices for levels of assistance (i also implemented a "low battery" power down mode in case of alternator failure (the pump pulls well over 100A when fully loaded !!)
(note new alluminium end cap as pump is in the "cabin"
CAN controller
I am thinking about making the controller availible to people who want to use this pump for other applications such as yours.
Max_Torque said:
You are right to avoid the "Saxo" type pump (actually a canadian HPI unit) as they have limited performance (approx 500W of hydraulic power) which isn't really enough in anything with a quick steering rack in it. I use the TRW pump in my rally car (from mk2 Focus RS) as it makes approx 1.2kW of hydraulic power and hence delivers significantly less "sag" when doing serious arm twirling (critical in my case because i have a high volume focus wrc rack (1.1turns LtL;-) )
The Gen3 TRW pump will need a CAN signal to run it unfortunately. (some people using the old Gen2 version say that it will run in a "limp" mode with just power connected (i.e. when it doesn't get any load signals off CAN, it defaults to running at a fixed meduim speed) My gen3 version does exactly nothing if you just power it........
I made a little controller that requests a pump speed based on vehicle speed, handwheel rate and a "mode" selector, giving me 3 choices for levels of assistance (i also implemented a "low battery" power down mode in case of alternator failure (the pump pulls well over 100A when fully loaded !!)
(note new alluminium end cap as pump is in the "cabin"
CAN controller
I am thinking about making the controller availible to people who want to use this pump for other applications such as yours.
Excellent, thanks for the info! So does the TRW unit take input from the steering sensor for the ESP? I assume it's a multifunction sensor that caters for rate as well as angle? My understanding is that speed sensitive PAS is something that has been bought in to drop the level of steering assistance at high road speeds, necessary because the rate of steering assistance has kept creeping up over the past years (because people want light steering when parking). I still prefer a fixed level of assistance; my rack is 2.4 LtL (1.1 must be nice!).The Gen3 TRW pump will need a CAN signal to run it unfortunately. (some people using the old Gen2 version say that it will run in a "limp" mode with just power connected (i.e. when it doesn't get any load signals off CAN, it defaults to running at a fixed meduim speed) My gen3 version does exactly nothing if you just power it........
I made a little controller that requests a pump speed based on vehicle speed, handwheel rate and a "mode" selector, giving me 3 choices for levels of assistance (i also implemented a "low battery" power down mode in case of alternator failure (the pump pulls well over 100A when fully loaded !!)
(note new alluminium end cap as pump is in the "cabin"
CAN controller
I am thinking about making the controller availible to people who want to use this pump for other applications such as yours.
Is the TRW pump run by a stepper motor, or is it a regular electric motor?
You have made a really nice installation in your rally car. I've been a bit slow off the mark getting to grips with CAN, I just haven't had the time. Good work!
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