Has your 996 or 997 engine had a major rebuild?

Has your 996 or 997 engine had a major rebuild?

Poll: Has your 996 or 997 engine had a major rebuild?

Total Members Polled: 819

No: 465
Yes because of the IMS: 62
Yes because of scored bores: 80
Haven't bought one because of known faults: 178
Yes because of D Chunk failure: 9
Re-built prior to purchase, not sure why?: 38
Author
Discussion

Mariosbt

1,912 posts

33 months

Sunday 3rd May 2020
quotequote all
N111BJG said:
Yes there was a full inspection done at my friends workshop, I watched the horoscope inspection (it predicted the future for this engine). It was in the early to mid stages of wear. I decided to find out if I liked the car enough to spend the money it needed, so I treated the the engine gently, no short runs & no caning it, hence oil use was not too bad at around 500-600 miles per litre. It smoked on start up & rattled like hell, but no significant deterioration over those 3000 miles. I reckon it would have soldiered on for years like that. But that’s not what I wanted.

Giving rebuild costs is a bit misleading because when the engine was stripped down Grant at Hartech gave me a range of options. I regarded just sorting the scored cylinders as a repair to sort the current problem. Whereas I wanted the engine life to be reset to ‘as new’ expectations. Hence a full rebuild with all internal gubbins refreshed. Same with ancillary’s and there was preventative work done too. I could have maybe spent £4-5k less. Of course I had the benefit of a bigger repair budget as a predecessor took the financial hit. Overall I spent one year of my notional budget, say £5k, plus the purchase ‘discount’ which was £9k. Later this year wheel refurb plus tyres, next year new hood & hardtop. Also replace PCM, I was looking at Pioneer, but the Porsche option is tempting, but rather pricey.

I expect there are many others that would have approached this differently. I took this route as I didn’t want to inherit someone else’s decision. I wanted to make my own, admittedly with expert & trusted advice. But that’s what I should do, as that’s how I make my living.
Good man! Have you got a pic. Of your car? thumbup

DRH986

246 posts

111 months

Sunday 3rd May 2020
quotequote all
N111BJG said:
oil use was not too bad at around 500-600 miles per litre.
Ah, ok, that's definitely very high, despite being on the limit of what Porsche states as acceptable (1000 Km/ litre if I recall).

Chess

15 posts

49 months

Monday 25th May 2020
quotequote all
Nope!

Mariosbt

1,912 posts

33 months

Tuesday 26th May 2020
quotequote all
Chess said:
Nope!
Right chess..... there’s no need to go on and on about it! laugh

Old andCrankie rev1

8 posts

66 months

Monday 4th January
quotequote all
Just had a 996 C4S with 98k on clock full inspection Boroscope etc all OK so Ive bought.Love the car going to check the Thermostat and install LT opening etc as per Hartech research.
Reference Porsche Engineering even the best can overlook or miss that's when trend and analysis comes in as faults appear.
just spent 3 months correcting a Wartsilia design Arctic Cooling System . Wartsilia are considered as top Quality Marine Diesel Engine and Propulsion Manufacturers

Mariosbt

1,912 posts

33 months

Monday 4th January
quotequote all
Old andCrankie rev1 said:
Just had a 996 C4S with 98k on clock full inspection Boroscope etc all OK so Ive bought.Love the car going to check the Thermostat and install LT opening etc as per Hartech research.
Reference Porsche Engineering even the best can overlook or miss that's when trend and analysis comes in as faults appear.
just spent 3 months correcting a Wartsilia design Arctic Cooling System . Wartsilia are considered as top Quality Marine Diesel Engine and Propulsion Manufacturers
Got any photos pal? Oil change every 3K. Manual or Tip? I had gear box oil changed and linkage cleaned.. it felt like a totally brand new gearbox. thumbup

catsey

239 posts

45 months

Wednesday 6th January
quotequote all
Mariosbt said:
Old andCrankie rev1 said:
Just had a 996 C4S with 98k on clock full inspection Boroscope etc all OK so Ive bought.Love the car going to check the Thermostat and install LT opening etc as per Hartech research.
Reference Porsche Engineering even the best can overlook or miss that's when trend and analysis comes in as faults appear.
just spent 3 months correcting a Wartsilia design Arctic Cooling System . Wartsilia are considered as top Quality Marine Diesel Engine and Propulsion Manufacturers
Got any photos pal? Oil change every 3K. Manual or Tip? I had gear box oil changed and linkage cleaned.. it felt like a totally brand new gearbox. thumbup
Cheers car is Manual for info car had lots work done brakes as like new, New AC pipes Brake lines . New 1200 quid SS exh system Car is well specced with PCM new Front suspension top links wheels have been refurbed a steal for what i paid inspected by top specialist took 4 hrs
Jobs to do replace 3 coffin arms and drop links inspect thermostat as water pump is new

Mariosbt

1,912 posts

33 months

Thursday 7th January
quotequote all
catsey said:
Mariosbt said:
Old andCrankie rev1 said:
Just had a 996 C4S with 98k on clock full inspection Boroscope etc all OK so Ive bought.Love the car going to check the Thermostat and install LT opening etc as per Hartech research.
Reference Porsche Engineering even the best can overlook or miss that's when trend and analysis comes in as faults appear.
just spent 3 months correcting a Wartsilia design Arctic Cooling System . Wartsilia are considered as top Quality Marine Diesel Engine and Propulsion Manufacturers
Got any photos pal? Oil change every 3K. Manual or Tip? I had gear box oil changed and linkage cleaned.. it felt like a totally brand new gearbox. thumbup
Cheers car is Manual for info car had lots work done brakes as like new, New AC pipes Brake lines . New 1200 quid SS exh system Car is well specced with PCM new Front suspension top links wheels have been refurbed a steal for what i paid inspected by top specialist took 4 hrs
Jobs to do replace 3 coffin arms and drop links inspect thermostat as water pump is new
Old Porsches are ‘The Dogs’! There’s a VW dealer next to my place of work. I drove past today and there was a white car ( may have been a golffrown) £37K. My 997.1 was £22K 6 years ago laugh I don’t like this saying.. but buying a decent old Porsche seems to be a ‘no brainier’. smile

catsey

239 posts

45 months

Friday 5th February
quotequote all
Mariosbt said:
Old Porsches are ‘The Dogs’! There’s a VW dealer next to my place of work. I drove past today and there was a white car ( may have been a golffrown) £37K. My 997.1 was £22K 6 years ago laugh I don’t like this saying.. but buying a decent old Porsche seems to be a ‘no brainier’. smile
just spent 1500 on suspension LT stat Geo and oil pressure sensor done 600miles no measurable oil consumption no rattles squeaks need to replace tyres in summer (showing age) need to source 2 new rears already purchased 2 front. Warm up usually rev to 5 occasional 6k when warm no point in more change up at 5 to 6K car sings.
im still around 5k below market price Car also has sport seats this weekend wheels of steam clean inspect lovely car its coming up 19yrs old and 100k this is a keeper GT2 stable mate

catsey

239 posts

45 months

Friday 5th February
quotequote all
catsey said:
just spent 1500 on suspension LT stat Geo and oil pressure sensor done 600miles no measurable oil consumption no rattles squeaks need to replace tyres in summer (showing age) need to source 2 new rears already purchased 2 front. Warm up usually rev to 5 occasional 6k when warm no point in more change up at 5 to 6K car sings.
im still around 5k below market price Car also has sport seats this weekend wheels of steam clean inspect lovely car its coming up 19yrs old and 100k this is a keeper GT2 stable mate

nelly997s

43 posts

148 months

Monday 29th March
quotequote all
this topic is inaccurate
997 gen1 cars had scoring issues so people answering this may be including later 997s
also there are loads of people who just had the car bodged and got cylinder 6 fixed to get rid
i found when fixing mine that even people who had the same car wouldn't acknowledge the issue on the threads
fixed mine with all top hat liners and two new pistons, ring pack
full bearing set
total 7K

Mariosbt

1,912 posts

33 months

Monday 29th March
quotequote all
nelly997s said:
this topic is inaccurate
997 gen1 cars had scoring issues so people answering this may be including later 997s
also there are loads of people who just had the car bodged and got cylinder 6 fixed to get rid
i found when fixing mine that even people who had the same car wouldn't acknowledge the issue on the threads
fixed mine with all top hat liners and two new pistons, ring pack
full bearing set
total 7K
I’m pretty sure everyone knows it’s regarding Gen1 cars.

Mines 2007 3.6 997.1 55k miles no issues ...................... touch wood whistle

leegrear

14 posts

36 months

Sunday 11th April
quotequote all
Seems people are fixated with 997.1 BORE SCORE ISSUE and IMS. Simply look for a rebuilt one, they are out there.. I asked my local guy (Well known in Porsche used car and former editor of a well known Porsche magazine) to locate me a used 997.1 Hartech rebuilt one. It took about a month to find me one. Owned by one family (Father & son). Father wanted to give it to his son but as did not want to hand him a potential future problem went to Hartech for a full rebuild 13.5k. I have owned this car for a period of 3 years, drive it most days, service and preventative issues dealt with each year by my local porsche indi around 2k a year drives like a dream. All Porsche car will eventually require a rebuild !!!!!

Mariosbt

1,912 posts

33 months

Sunday 11th April
quotequote all
leegrear said:
Seems people are fixated with 997.1 BORE SCORE ISSUE and IMS. Simply look for a rebuilt one, they are out there.. I asked my local guy (Well known in Porsche used car and former editor of a well known Porsche magazine) to locate me a used 997.1 Hartech rebuilt one. It took about a month to find me one. Owned by one family (Father & son). Father wanted to give it to his son but as did not want to hand him a potential future problem went to Hartech for a full rebuild 13.5k. I have owned this car for a period of 3 years, drive it most days, service and preventative issues dealt with each year by my local porsche indi around 2k a year drives like a dream. All Porsche car will eventually require a rebuild !!!!!
I’ve owned my 997.1 6 years... oil & filter every 3K, drives like a dream, never required rebuild. smile

hartech

1,910 posts

184 months

Tuesday 13th April
quotequote all
Unfortunately there are going to be different opinions about these cars based on their owners experiences.

i say "unfortunately" because the problems of IMS failures and particularly bore scoring are influenced more by variations in build quality mixed with previous owners care and driving styles (that make a huge difference to it) than by arguments about the resulting outcomes.

Tolerance build up in the original small IMS bearing fit and sealed design combined with oil types used, frequency of oil changes and oil levels can influence their life expectancy.

Variations in the distribution of silicon particles in the casting of the cylinders contributes to a huge difference in release rate and plastic piston coatings vary in bonding strength - the combination of which can make a pairing of a particular piston and bore last a long time or not very long at all.

So some owners have good experiences and others have poor ones and each posts a comment as if the other is wrong because their engines lasted differently to someone else's - and this reaction is typical of (and indicative of designs near their safe operating limit that allow small variances in quality to have major influences over life expectancy).

This opinion is supported by the exceptional reliability that is clearly reflected on various forum posts about the results of replacing those parts with those with better designs like our "closed deck" Alloy Nikasil liners (that are more consistent in surface quality and silicon distribution and have silicon particles about 1/10th the size of those in Lokasil or Alusil). The fact that our liners do not need any piston coating anyway (so can run with all current different coating types available as well - or none) and the larger IMS bearing being available for all rebuilds (old or new types of cam-chain drive covered).

With these design changes that correct that variability - engines become exceptionally reliable again and as all N/A I/C engine'd sports cars will appreciate (due to becoming increasingly rare in the years ahead) and with our capacity increases improving fuel consumption and performance - these differences of opinion will probably diminish with time and follow a trend that is already starting to emerge of the overall rating of these cars becoming recognised as absolutely superb (once those engine weaknesses have been addressed).

Baz


Edited by hartech on Tuesday 13th April 05:25

Mariosbt

1,912 posts

33 months

Tuesday 13th April
quotequote all
hartech said:
Unfortunately there are going to be different opinions about these cars based on their owners experiences.

i say "unfortunately" because the problems of IMS failures and particularly bore scoring are influenced more by variations in build quality mixed with previous owners care and driving styles (that make a huge difference to it) than by arguments about the resulting outcomes.

Tolerance build up in the original small IMS bearing fit and sealed design combined with oil types used, frequency of oil changes and oil levels can influence their life expectancy.

Variations in the distribution of silicon particles in the casting of the cylinders contributes to a huge difference in release rate and plastic piston coatings vary in bonding strength - the combination of which can make a pairing of a particular piston and bore last a long time or not very long at all.

So some owners have good experiences and others have poor ones and each posts a comment as if the other is wrong because their engines lasted differently to someone else's - and this reaction is typical of (and indicative of designs near their safe operating limit that allow small variances in quality to have major influences over life expectancy).

This opinion is supported by the exceptional reliability that is clearly reflected on various forum posts about the results of replacing those parts with those with better designs like our "closed deck" Alloy Nikasil liners (that are more consistent in surface quality and silicon distribution and have silicon particles about 1/10th the size of those in Lokasil or Alusil). The fact that our liners do not need any piston coating anyway (so can run with all current different coating types available as well - or none) and the larger IMS bearing being available for all rebuilds (old or new types of cam-chain drive covered).

With these design changes that correct that variability - engines become exceptionally reliable again and as all N/A I/C engine'd sports cars will appreciate (due to becoming increasingly rare in the years ahead) and with our capacity increases improving fuel consumption and performance - these differences of opinion will probably diminish with time and follow a trend that is already starting to emerge of the overall rating of these cars becoming recognised as absolutely superb (once those engine weaknesses have been addressed).

Baz


Edited by hartech on Tuesday 13th April 05:25
What is the current wait time for a rebuild on an engine at Hartech? Do you take the car while the work is done or do you expect the engine to be shipped to Hartech’s premises?
Hoping I never need your services of course hehe

hartech

1,910 posts

184 months

Wednesday 14th April
quotequote all
Hi, we are happy to help with anything from fitting new cylinders into crankcases through short motors through to receiving the whole car.

However - Covid 19 has unfortunately played havoc with our capacity - mainly because it was a well balanced, smoothly organised production process in which we coped with the usual short falls really well but now we can find we are short of a part or a member of staff and it has created a backlog.

It sound like you don't need a precise figure because your engine is thankfully OK but when we were firing on all cylinders we could process an engine block in about 2 weeks and a whole car in about 6 but it may be some time before we get back to that and presently we cannot accept any more engine related work until late summer.

If or when you need us it is best to contact Grant on 01204 302809 or auto@hartech.org - for an estimate.

Baz

maz8062

1,467 posts

182 months

Thursday 3rd June
quotequote all
No matter how one looks at it, the risk of buying one of these cars is huge, especially if this non scientific thread is anything to go by.

Of the 640 votes (excluding those that didn’t buy out of fear) 29.5% have had a failure of some description. When the cost of repairs are factor into this, one would be walking a tight rope buying one and would definitely have to set aside funds to cover repairs that may or not happen, but 30% is diabolical and it’s a wonder folk put up with it.

cossers

2,664 posts

107 months

Thursday 3rd June
quotequote all
That’s only from people on this forum, some will have been members for years and a lot will have found their way here due to google after they have had an engine issue, most Porsche owners probably do not have a profile here and are driving round in ignorant bliss of this issue, there are thousands of 911s out there that this can effect that are driving around on the original engine

Worldwide estimate is that’s it’s less than 5%, all cars have issues but theses are great cars to take a risk on, if you have a war chest then it’s risk free as you can cover it

I suggest you read baz’s contributions more carefully if you think there is no in-depth knowledge on the subject.


Edited by cossers on Thursday 3rd June 09:41

maz8062

1,467 posts

182 months

Thursday 3rd June
quotequote all
cossers said:
That’s only from people on this forum, some will have been members for years and a lot will have found their way here due to google after they have had an engine issue, most Porsche owners probably do not have a profile here and are driving round in ignorant bliss of this issue, there are thousands of 911s out there that this can effect that are driving around on the original engine

Worldwide estimate is that’s it’s less than 5%, all cars have issues but theses are great cars to take a risk on, if you have a war chest then it’s risk free as you can cover it

I suggest you read baz’s contributions more carefully if you think there is no in-depth knowledge on the subject.


Edited by cossers on Thursday 3rd June 09:41
It is what it is. Some that have issues are not even part of the forum, so this is a poll that helps those that are actually on the forum and it's not that great if you ask me. There really is no excuse for this level of unreliability in the UK, as folk can barely stretch the legs of these cars given our heavily policed roads. If one doesn't track it, how can the engines of these cars be put under any real stress? And I don't buy it that people, for the most part, do not look after the cars and thrash them when cold etc. cars should be able to withstand it without the need for expensive engine work.

As for me, I fall into the "too scared to take the risk" camp, and I'll be there for some time, because when it goes wrong it costs £££'s to fix.