I've just bought some poverty Pork…

[Order66]

barryrs said:

I might be being unnecessarily cautious but titanium wheel bolts from alibaba! What could possibly go wrong!

I had a very bad experience once - decided to replace the prop-shaft bolts on my race car because they were looking a bit rusty/tired. Ordered some from ebay which claimed to be class 10.9. A few weeks later my propshaft detatched and the bolts were obviously porous on the inside.

Won't make that mistake again, all bolts now sourced from only reputable local suppliers.

[Escy]

https://www.design911shop.com/TITANIUM-Wheel-Bolts...

I bet these are from China

[edc]

Escy said:

https://www.design911shop.com/TITANIUM-Wheel-Bolts...

I bet these are from China

China isn't the problem. It's the quality control and spec issued by the buyer/retailer.

I'm sure it won't be a surprise to many but even if your item says made in UK or Germany perhaps, various components or sub assemblies will be made in China. I worked for an aerospace supplier to the big OEMs like Airbus and Boeing and guess where we had electronics made?

[Escy]

edc said:

China isn't the problem. It's the quality control and spec issued by the buyer/retailer.

Yeah, what I meant was the design911 ones are probably Ali Express spec rather than something superior. I've seen this from other retailers, the cheap Chinese stuff seems suspiciously cheap so you want to avoid it and spent more and source from the UK. It's often the same stuff with a mark up.

[edc]

Escy said:

Yeah, what I meant was the design911 ones are probably Ali Express spec rather than something superior. I've seen this from other retailers, the cheap Chinese stuff seems suspiciously cheap so you want to avoid it and spent more and source from the UK. It's often the same stuff with a mark up.

Totally. If you place a large enough order then you will get some customisation or branding. Wheel bolts, centre caps, exhaust boxes, adjustable suspension arms, short shift kits. They're all in the same bracket.

[Skyedriver]

Wasn't sure where to post this but here's as good as any. Not exactly poverty I guess (not to me anyway) but here goes

I shouldn't be looking, I've a car to sell first really (TVR please don't tell them I'm here) but I noticed a Boxster 3.4S advertised yesterday on a well known internet auction site,
It's a 2007 on a 56 plate with 83K miles and not the usual black/silver/grey. It has a short Mot and past inspections highlight brake pipes so I think I'd need to price in replacements but what questions should I be asking about engine, clutch, IMS bearing replacement etc? It's 250 mile from me so cannot just call over, paintwork has a few scrapes, there's a bit of lacquer and one wing looks a slightly different shade but that may be the photo. Claims a FSH.
What sort of price should I be paying and am I right in thinking it's £585 VED?
Thanks
Haven't posted a link in case the Mods think I'm advertising.

[F6C]

You can't replace the IMS on a 3.4 without removing the engine and splitting the crank case. Has the final big bearing which is not a worry.

Scoring is the concern on a 3.4. Personally wouldn't buy without having the bores scoped. Get bank two inspected if you are otherwise happy with the car and want it (if bank two is fine, very unlikely to be a problem with bank one). Cost should be circa £150-200 and you can have the rest of the car looked over while you are at it.

[Skyedriver]

thanks F6C, so the bearing shouldn't be a problem but scoring is a possibility. Not sure how I get the seller to have it checked out but can ask if it's been done and can I see the results.
Thanks for the tip.

[ATM]

Skyedriver said:

thanks F6C, so the bearing shouldn't be a problem but scoring is a possibility. Not sure how I get the seller to have it checked out but can ask if it's been done and can I see the results.
Thanks for the tip.

You get it checked not the seller.

You arrange for someone to inspect the car. You pay them. They deal with you. They contact the seller to arrange times and dates etc.

[Skyedriver]

ATM said:

You get it checked not the seller.

You arrange for someone to inspect the car. You pay them. They deal with you. They contact the seller to arrange times and dates etc.

Yes, appreciate that, bit silly asking if he's he's had someone cobble up a report I guess.
Offer subject to a check I guess. With 4 days to go on an ebay ad there's no way I can get someone over to do the biz.

[ATM]

Skyedriver said:

am I right in thinking it's £585 VED?

Yes

[ATM]

Skyedriver said:

It has a short Mot and past inspections highlight brake pipes so I think I'd need to price in replacements but what questions should I be asking about engine, clutch, IMS bearing replacement. Claims a FSH.

Thanks

Past inspections highlight brake pipes or past MOT highlight brake pipes?

This is important. If the car has been regularly serviced by a decent outfit they would have spotted the brake pipes way in advance of an MOT tester. So if it has full SH does this mean much if they didn't spot the brake pipes?

These have 2 year or 20000 mile service intervals. So FSH on these can mean 7 services only if it is a 2007 car. No make that 6 if it is due one now.

Rather than ask about specific stuff I would just ask some general questions like what works has been done recently.

This isnt like a TVR. Most Porsche owners never get their hands dirty. Maybe as these cars get older they fall into the hands of people who will tinker. Or they fall into the hands of people who get the oll changed every 2 years and thats it.

Not trying to put you off but as has been said many many times, these cars can swallow 5k in bills very easily the moment you buy them and this is where nothing breaks. If a gearbox breaks or an engine that 5k can become 10k.

So you are either taking a risky punt and being realistic on the car not being tip top, so buying one that is cheaper and hoping for the best case which is maybe 12 months motoring for very little outlay and then selling the car on before you get stung

Or

Trying to buy one that is tip top and therefore wont cost you much over the next 2 or 3 years of proud and happy ownership, going to
Porsche meets, polishing it every Sunday etc

So please let us know what you are looking for here so we can answer accordingly.

[Speedgelb]

F6C said:

You can't replace the IMS on a 3.4 without removing the engine and splitting the crank case. Has the final big bearing which is not a worry.

Genuinely interested - is this true for all 3.4 M97 engines, and is there a source for this? Am aware that some early 997 cars definitely have the smaller (but still trouble free, in the grand scheme of things) IMS/B. Anectdotally, was made aware that some early 3.4s had these too.

Having said that, the 3.4 was introduced in the Boxster later than in the Cayman, which may have some bearing on this?

[Skyedriver]

ATM said:

Past inspections highlight brake pipes or past MOT highlight brake pipes?

This is important. If the car has been regularly serviced by a decent outfit they would have spotted the brake pipes way in advance of an MOT tester. So if it has full SH does this mean much if they didn't spot the brake pipes?

These have 2 year or 20000 mile service intervals. So FSH on these can mean 7 services only if it is a 2007 car. No make that 6 if it is due one now.

Rather than ask about specific stuff I would just ask some general questions like what works has been done recently.

This isnt like a TVR. Most Porsche owners never get their hands dirty. Maybe as these cars get older they fall into the hands of people who will tinker. Or they fall into the hands of people who get the oll changed every 2 years and thats it.

Not trying to put you off but as has been said many many times, these cars can swallow 5k in bills very easily the moment you buy them and this is where nothing breaks. If a gearbox breaks or an engine that 5k can become 10k.

So you are either taking a risky punt and being realistic on the car not being tip top, so buying one that is cheaper and hoping for the best case which is maybe 12 months motoring for very little outlay and then selling the car on before you get stung

Or

Trying to buy one that is tip top and therefore wont cost you much over the next 2 or 3 years of proud and happy ownership, going to
Porsche meets, polishing it every Sunday etc

So please let us know what you are looking for here so we can answer accordingly.

Thanks ATM, past MoTs highlight brake pipes corrosion and also brake pipes covered in grease, which may be for protection or to hide something.
Some of my TVRs have had a taste for money too and that's just the V8 ones!
I would say this is one of them cars that the owners haven't done their own work, it's supposedly the sellers wife's car, has a number of scrapes and scratches low down suggesting kerb damage. She's supposedly buying a Tesla hence the sale. Location: Darlington near where I used to live.
Caught my eye being red for a change, reality is I need to sell the TVR before buying anything so sensible head on says leave it.

[Speedgelb]

Skyedriver said:

Thanks ATM, past MoTs highlight brake pipes corrosion and also brake pipes covered in grease, which may be for protection or to hide something.

Grease / minor (fixable) corrosion is fine. The main issue is the lines that run around the engine, which are a pig of a job (but not impossible) to do without dropping the engine.

There are lines which run the length of the NS sill, which can be treated / replaced without too much bother. The ones I describe above are obscured by the undertrays (which you can't remove as part of an MOT), and as such, these can be a can of worms. The engine / gearbox was out of my car recently, and the (20 year old original) lines weren't in great shape - these were replaced.

Just go in with your eyes open, ask questions, and know what to look for

[Skyedriver]

Speedgelb said:

Skyedriver said:

Thanks ATM, past MoTs highlight brake pipes corrosion and also brake pipes covered in grease, which may be for protection or to hide something.

Grease / minor (fixable) corrosion is fine. The main issue is the lines that run around the engine, which are a pig of a job (but not impossible) to do without dropping the engine.

There are lines which run the length of the NS sill, which can be treated / replaced without too much bother. The ones I describe above are obscured by the undertrays (which you can't remove as part of an MOT), and as such, these can be a can of worms. The engine / gearbox was out of my car recently, and the (20 year old original) lines weren't in great shape - these were replaced.

Just go in with your eyes open, ask questions, and know what to look for

Thank you for that info: a can of worms indeed by the sounds of it. Not one to make a bid unseen then and preferably not without someone who knows the model inside out. I'm happy to view a car for sale, have bought plenty in the past, carried out fairly major mechanical & bodywork repairs where required but not really looked around a Boxster before. (Have walked away from a few rotting 911's in my early days though).

[F6C]

Speedgelb said:

Genuinely interested - is this true for all 3.4 M97 engines, and is there a source for this? Am aware that some early 997 cars definitely have the smaller (but still trouble free, in the grand scheme of things) IMS/B. Anectdotally, was made aware that some early 3.4s had these too.

Having said that, the 3.4 was introduced in the Boxster later than in the Cayman, which may have some bearing on this?

All 987.1 3.4 cars are, at earliest, model year 2006 - the first 3.4 Cayman was MY2006, the first 3.4 Boxster was MY 2007. There is, of course, a full model year of 997 production that predates this, those cars will have the small bearing. As will MY2005 Boxsters. There are no MY2005 Caymans.

Officially, all MY2006 and later M97 engines have the big bearing. As ever with these M96/7 lumps, you get the odd exception / the transitions weren't always, well, immaculate. One cannot entirely rule out the possibility that a few early Caymans had the small bearing. Personally, I think that's very, very unlikely. Try finding a reliable report of one identified in the wild.

But with the 3.4 Boxster, introduced a full year after the change to the big bearing, I'd say exceptionally unlikely you'd find one with a small bearing.

Anyway, Personally don't think they built any 3.4 lumps at all with the big bearing - it was big bearing from the get go, plain and simple. It's the engines that spanned the model year change - so the 2.7, 3.2, 3.6 and 3.8 - where there can be some doubt. The 3.2 is the big question mark. Did it get the big bearing for that one final year of production for MY2006? Hard to be absolutely certain.

[Skyedriver]

Apologies for taking the thread away from the main subject but what actually causes the bore scoring, presumably it's random and presumably you could buy a car today with no visible signs and next week it has suffered? I'm old school and used to seeing the usual wear in cylinders, stepping at the top etc but any scoring would usually be caused by something falling into the cylinder or a broken ring.

[olv]

Skyedriver said:

Apologies for taking the thread away from the main subject but what actually causes the bore scoring, presumably it's random and presumably you could buy a car today with no visible signs and next week it has suffered? I'm old school and used to seeing the usual wear in cylinders, stepping at the top etc but any scoring would usually be caused by something falling into the cylinder or a broken ring.

I'm not an expert on the subject, far from it, but have absorbed a lot of the information on here over the years. It doesn't seem like there is one main cause for an engine to begin scoring, as I understand it some engines are more likely to suffer due to manufacturing faults (the construction of the cylinder wall begins to degrade) so there's the luck element. But there also seems to be a fundamental design issue around cooling which means you can induce or exacerbate it with use, either that being lack of care when cold, or large throttle application at low rpm. One specialist I spoke about engines with say they see it more in town/school run cars than cars that are used more exuberantly. There's someone on here with a 997.1 3.6 with 300,000km on it so some clearly last.

Also worth adding that frequency of oil changes, quality of oil and fuel used have all had the finger pointed at some point too.

[ATM]

olv said:

Skyedriver said:

Apologies for taking the thread away from the main subject but what actually causes the bore scoring, presumably it's random and presumably you could buy a car today with no visible signs and next week it has suffered? I'm old school and used to seeing the usual wear in cylinders, stepping at the top etc but any scoring would usually be caused by something falling into the cylinder or a broken ring.

I'm not an expert on the subject, far from it, but have absorbed a lot of the information on here over the years. It doesn't seem like there is one main cause for an engine to begin scoring, as I understand it some engines are more likely to suffer due to manufacturing faults (the construction of the cylinder wall begins to degrade) so there's the luck element. But there also seems to be a fundamental design issue around cooling which means you can induce or exacerbate it with use, either that being lack of care when cold, or large throttle application at low rpm. One specialist I spoke about engines with say they see it more in town/school run cars than cars that are used more exuberantly. There's someone on here with a 997.1 3.6 with 300,000km on it so some clearly last.

Also worth adding that frequency of oil changes, quality of oil and fuel used have all had the finger pointed at some point too.

Google is your friend here and there are some good articles / posts written by Barry from Hartech. He seems to have become the generally accepted anorak or expert on this now. And his business is doing well form rebuilds. 5 years ago Hartech was less well known. Now if a car has a Hartech engine rebuild the ad will state that so it is seen as a big plus point where as before engine rebuilds were often not discussed and everyone pretended their engines were fine and had always been fine. I've some cars for sale - generally the more expensive stuff like 997 3.8 cars - saying they are on their 3rd engine and thats without stella mileage too.

So bore score can happen to any of the water cooled engines form 1997 to 2008.

Tips seem more susceptible as these can often pull away in 2nd rather than dropping to 1st. There is the belief that higher revs is better for prevention compared to lower revs as mentioned by olv above.

Also these engines switched to a 20,000 mile service interval around 2003 I believe. So if you buy a 987 it will have started its life on 20,000 mile service intervals. This is concerning [for Me] because nothing else changed with these engines. The type of oil recommended remained the same, the internal design and the manufacturing processes etc all remained the same. Drawer your own conclusions there.

The newer engine which I have in my 981 has a specific long life oil recommended. I'm not saying thats perfect but its better than just sticking to regular - now quite out dated - Mobil 1.

The bore scoring happens at the bottom of the cylinder wall. So this is where the piston is at the bottom of its stroke and starting to move upwards. The forces here should point upwards but they will try to push against the cylinder wall. The bigger engines are more susceptible due to the extra forces from more bang, more heat and also there being less metal between cylinders which can cause hot spots. I'm not sure if the length of the stroke compared to the bore diameter has anything to do with this too. Heat in general is your enemy here with people fitting lower temp thermostats - which I personally dont buy into - if the engine is hot what difference will that make - and 3rd radiator kits - the 3.8 997 tip comes with a 3rd rad from new but the manual does not.

My latest 996 uses a 3rd rad and Evans waterless coolant - no idea if this helps.

The earliest cars used a different [better maybe depending who you listen to] piston coating. So from 1997 to around 1999 / 2000 - not sure - when they stopped using it and switched to something cheaper. In general the earlier cars are less susceptible but the 2001 996 3.6 started to see an uptick and then the 987 / 997 which uses a slightly different engine exasperated the problem. Earlier cars use an M96 and later use an M97. Some people believe the M97 is more risky than the M96 but others say this is just because they are more common. Porsche sold a lot fo cars in 2004 and 2005 and partly into 2006 before we had the global financial crisis.

Hartech rebuilds use a specific liner material which they believe is the best. Some cheaper liners are made form various materials even some are made from Steel. I think the point is the standard material in the engine is a bit pants and most decent rebuilds switch it up. In any case if the bores ar scored you have to put in new liners or simple over sized pistons. Most rebuilds on these engines talk about liners. Hartech do some cheaper rebuilds where they just fit 3 liners to one bank and leave the other bank alone. Some back street garages might just fit one liner and cobble it back together and then the car gets sold quickly with no mention of a rebuild. So personally I think this is the biggest risk with these cars. Cheapo rebuilds which are not mentioned. Hartech apparently claim most engines they see have been tinkered with in some way before they get them. Do the math.

Hartech also open up extra cooling passageways and do other stuff so they dont just fit different liners. Hartech also use a closed deck system to prevent the liner moving around although I think this is an optional extra.

So thats plenty to give you to think about.

Us Porsche nerds have bore score at the front of our minds for a reason.