Discussion
I think this class of vehicle is almost completely pointless - it's not a proper 4*4 and it has minimal (if any) advantages and lots of disadvantages relative to an estate car.
From these photos, its clearance looks fairly standard for a road car, for example, so I doubt anyone will take it off road. The suspension and other options that might allow you to do so will be rare.
I expect the turbo to be a bit dangerous, to be honest. It will have enough Porsche punch, balance and rigidity to tempt you into driving fast but will still be a million miles from a sports car when pressed. Despite (or because of) the good engineering, I think it might let go on corners fairly suddenly. If that is right, a lot of Londoners will see the little yellow light on the screen flash a bit when they take it out of town.
Despite all of the above, I would be quite happy to buy a Macan. The problem is that the more powerful versions will be so damn tempting but crazy expensive (given that it will always be the run around for 2 or 3 car households and so the great performance will be useless on most journeys).
Except for very wealthy people, wouldnt we be better served by getting a cheap SUV or estate for the family and spending the extra money on a better sports car for the weekend, etc?
(I dont mean to attack the Macan or criticise its fans - it is obviously going to be very good, and I quite like it. I am trying to think with my head rather than my heart. My heart wants the turbo right now.)
From these photos, its clearance looks fairly standard for a road car, for example, so I doubt anyone will take it off road. The suspension and other options that might allow you to do so will be rare.
I expect the turbo to be a bit dangerous, to be honest. It will have enough Porsche punch, balance and rigidity to tempt you into driving fast but will still be a million miles from a sports car when pressed. Despite (or because of) the good engineering, I think it might let go on corners fairly suddenly. If that is right, a lot of Londoners will see the little yellow light on the screen flash a bit when they take it out of town.
Despite all of the above, I would be quite happy to buy a Macan. The problem is that the more powerful versions will be so damn tempting but crazy expensive (given that it will always be the run around for 2 or 3 car households and so the great performance will be useless on most journeys).
Except for very wealthy people, wouldnt we be better served by getting a cheap SUV or estate for the family and spending the extra money on a better sports car for the weekend, etc?
(I dont mean to attack the Macan or criticise its fans - it is obviously going to be very good, and I quite like it. I am trying to think with my head rather than my heart. My heart wants the turbo right now.)
ORD said:
I think this class of vehicle is almost completely pointless - it's not a proper 4*4 and it has minimal (if any) advantages and lots of disadvantages relative to an estate car.
From these photos, its clearance looks fairly standard for a road car, for example, so I doubt anyone will take it off road. The suspension and other options that might allow you to do so will be rare.
It will be shorter and handle better than a typical estate. It will also have significantly more off-road ability than a typical estate - see the videos of the Macans testing in the desert!From these photos, its clearance looks fairly standard for a road car, for example, so I doubt anyone will take it off road. The suspension and other options that might allow you to do so will be rare.
ORD said:
I expect the turbo to be a bit dangerous, to be honest. It will have enough Porsche punch, balance and rigidity to tempt you into driving fast but will still be a million miles from a sports car when pressed. Despite (or because of) the good engineering, I think it might let go on corners fairly suddenly. If that is right, a lot of Londoners will see the little yellow light on the screen flash a bit when they take it out of town.
It is a Porsche and will have been engineered to handles like a Porsche! as far as possible. It is therefore likely to be much less dangerous than your typical estate car into which the manufacturer has shoe-horned a large engine.ORD said:
Despite all of the above, I would be quite happy to buy a Macan. The problem is that the more powerful versions will be so damn tempting but crazy expensive (given that it will always be the run around for 2 or 3 car households and so the great performance will be useless on most journeys).
I agree that the top versions will be very expensive - I think the Turbo will be well above £70k when fully specced.ORD said:
Except for very wealthy people, wouldnt we be better served by getting a cheap SUV or estate for the family and spending the extra money on a better sports car for the weekend, etc?
(I dont mean to attack the Macan or criticise its fans - it is obviously going to be very good, and I quite like it. I am trying to think with my head rather than my heart. My heart wants the turbo right now.)
I'm looking for a practical car that my wife can use on a daily basis but which will be sufficiently fun when we need to go on longer trips (and where my GT3 won't be practical)!(I dont mean to attack the Macan or criticise its fans - it is obviously going to be very good, and I quite like it. I am trying to think with my head rather than my heart. My heart wants the turbo right now.)
I can see all that, but I just dont get why people buy SUVs over estate cars. An estate is obviously longer, which isnt great. But I would have thought that building up affects handling more than building back, if you see what I mean. I expect the Macan will handle as well as, but no better than, a 330d estate with decent suspension. Maybe I am wrong. In any case, the Macan would handle better if it was the same volume and weight but lower and longer, wouldnt it?
I like the Macan, too, but I cannot persuade myself that an SUV is remotely sensible for the driving that my wife and I do (living in London and driving out into the countryside to visit family every couple of weeks).
I guess my point is this - what is about an SUV that will actually benefit the people who will buy it? I wouldnt drive a Macan in the desert, for example (and I am not sure I know what the point of that clip was - a car sliding down a sand dune doesnt tell me much :-) ). And I expect that it wont be much (if at all) better on snowy roads than would be a good estate with 4WD.
I might well be wrong. I am just trying to get over my initial response to SUVs which is that they are good-looking, fashionable but not really what most families need as an everyday car.
I like the Macan, too, but I cannot persuade myself that an SUV is remotely sensible for the driving that my wife and I do (living in London and driving out into the countryside to visit family every couple of weeks).
I guess my point is this - what is about an SUV that will actually benefit the people who will buy it? I wouldnt drive a Macan in the desert, for example (and I am not sure I know what the point of that clip was - a car sliding down a sand dune doesnt tell me much :-) ). And I expect that it wont be much (if at all) better on snowy roads than would be a good estate with 4WD.
I might well be wrong. I am just trying to get over my initial response to SUVs which is that they are good-looking, fashionable but not really what most families need as an everyday car.
ORD said:
I can see all that, but I just dont get why people buy SUVs over estate cars. An estate is obviously longer, which isnt great. But I would have thought that building up affects handling more than building back, if you see what I mean. I expect the Macan will handle as well as, but no better than, a 330d estate with decent suspension. Maybe I am wrong. In any case, the Macan would handle better if it was the same volume and weight but lower and longer, wouldnt it?
I like the Macan, too, but I cannot persuade myself that an SUV is remotely sensible for the driving that my wife and I do (living in London and driving out into the countryside to visit family every couple of weeks).
I guess my point is this - what is about an SUV that will actually benefit the people who will buy it? I wouldnt drive a Macan in the desert, for example (and I am not sure I know what the point of that clip was - a car sliding down a sand dune doesnt tell me much :-) ). And I expect that it wont be much (if at all) better on snowy roads than would be a good estate with 4WD.
I might well be wrong. I am just trying to get over my initial response to SUVs which is that they are good-looking, fashionable but not really what most families need as an everyday car.
Don't buy one then!I like the Macan, too, but I cannot persuade myself that an SUV is remotely sensible for the driving that my wife and I do (living in London and driving out into the countryside to visit family every couple of weeks).
I guess my point is this - what is about an SUV that will actually benefit the people who will buy it? I wouldnt drive a Macan in the desert, for example (and I am not sure I know what the point of that clip was - a car sliding down a sand dune doesnt tell me much :-) ). And I expect that it wont be much (if at all) better on snowy roads than would be a good estate with 4WD.
I might well be wrong. I am just trying to get over my initial response to SUVs which is that they are good-looking, fashionable but not really what most families need as an everyday car.
Recognise that you're not criticising and your heart wants a turbo, but.....
I find some of your thoughts just don't work - not wanting to be confrontational, rather just putting my side of the discussion.
No, this class of car is extremely useful for many - I had 4 estates before I bought my first 4x4 and have had one in the family ever since because of their benefits over an estate. I can't think of many disadvantages to be honest, but can think of many advantages.
It may only be a couple of inches extra clearance, but it does make a significant difference, which personally means I can use the car for a greater variety of jobs than an estate. I don't care that it's not a proper 4x4 because I don't go rock crawling or to pay and play sites, my off-roading is faster and on gravel tracks like that photo.
Incidentally on a recent tarmac rally (closed roads) I was working as a course closing car and was able to travel much faster than the cars behind me (funnily enough, Police cars) because of the extra ground clearance (their 5 series was grounding out). I have to admit it was the only time I've ever pushed to outrun blue lights and BiB did have a laugh at the stage finish control.
Google it and look and the shots of the Touareg and XC90 in comparison. I'm sure Porsche after two generations of Cayenne and as part of VAG who have many others the dynamics will not be 'dangerous'.
I'd like a Macan because of the looks and performance - I'd also like it to be a diesel partly because of the economy and partly the way they drive with the extra torque. So ultimately I'm disappointed that there will only be a 250bhp version at launch, with the SQ5 in the same 'family' and the X3 xdrive35d both having over 300bhp a Macan may not be my final choice.
When I drove the new RRS recently I did like the grunt of the V8 but just couldn't get on with the size of the thing. I have a feeling the Cayenne would be the same so what I would say is that I do think that at last we have a decent spread of performance choices in the this class of 4x4 - may more join the party, it would be nice to see an Evoque with grunt as well.
I find some of your thoughts just don't work - not wanting to be confrontational, rather just putting my side of the discussion.
ORD said:
I think this class of vehicle is almost completely pointless - it's not a proper 4*4 and it has minimal (if any) advantages and lots of disadvantages relative to an estate car.
No, this class of car is extremely useful for many - I had 4 estates before I bought my first 4x4 and have had one in the family ever since because of their benefits over an estate. I can't think of many disadvantages to be honest, but can think of many advantages.
ORD said:
From these photos, its clearance looks fairly standard for a road car, for example, so I doubt anyone will take it off road.
Look at this shot - how many estate cars could drive quickly on tracks like this?It may only be a couple of inches extra clearance, but it does make a significant difference, which personally means I can use the car for a greater variety of jobs than an estate. I don't care that it's not a proper 4x4 because I don't go rock crawling or to pay and play sites, my off-roading is faster and on gravel tracks like that photo.
Incidentally on a recent tarmac rally (closed roads) I was working as a course closing car and was able to travel much faster than the cars behind me (funnily enough, Police cars) because of the extra ground clearance (their 5 series was grounding out). I have to admit it was the only time I've ever pushed to outrun blue lights and BiB did have a laugh at the stage finish control.
ORD said:
...I expect the turbo to be a bit dangerous, to be honest. It will have enough Porsche punch, balance and rigidity to tempt you into driving fast but will still be a million miles from a sports car when pressed. Despite (or because of) the good engineering, I think it might let go on corners fairly suddenly. If that is right, a lot of Londoners will see the little yellow light on the screen flash a bit when they take it out of town.
Dangerous - You are joking aren't you? The dangerous 4x4 is surprisingly a Jeep...Google it and look and the shots of the Touareg and XC90 in comparison. I'm sure Porsche after two generations of Cayenne and as part of VAG who have many others the dynamics will not be 'dangerous'.
ORD said:
...Despite all of the above, I would be quite happy to buy a Macan. The problem is that the more powerful versions will be so damn tempting but crazy expensive (given that it will always be the run around for 2 or 3 car households and so the great performance will be useless on most journeys).
Except for very wealthy people, wouldnt we be better served by getting a cheap SUV or estate for the family and spending the extra money on a better sports car for the weekend, etc?
I have two spaces on the drive and no where to keep a sports car. Both cars need to be 4 seaters (minimum), one must be a 4x4 both capable of driving quickly on forest tracks and then driving to the Alps/Scotland/Ireland carrying 4 and their luggage/ski kit in comfort and with pace. So what do you suggest? I think we've got a fairly good compromise with what we've chosen.Except for very wealthy people, wouldnt we be better served by getting a cheap SUV or estate for the family and spending the extra money on a better sports car for the weekend, etc?
I'd like a Macan because of the looks and performance - I'd also like it to be a diesel partly because of the economy and partly the way they drive with the extra torque. So ultimately I'm disappointed that there will only be a 250bhp version at launch, with the SQ5 in the same 'family' and the X3 xdrive35d both having over 300bhp a Macan may not be my final choice.
When I drove the new RRS recently I did like the grunt of the V8 but just couldn't get on with the size of the thing. I have a feeling the Cayenne would be the same so what I would say is that I do think that at last we have a decent spread of performance choices in the this class of 4x4 - may more join the party, it would be nice to see an Evoque with grunt as well.
ORD said:
I can see all that, but I just dont get why people buy SUVs over estate cars....
I guess my point is this - what is about an SUV that will actually benefit the people who will buy it?...
I might well be wrong. I am just trying to get over my initial response to SUVs which is that they are good-looking, fashionable but not really what most families need as an everyday car.
I've chopped up your post, and recognise we're not like 'most' people who buy one, this is why I do...I guess my point is this - what is about an SUV that will actually benefit the people who will buy it?...
I might well be wrong. I am just trying to get over my initial response to SUVs which is that they are good-looking, fashionable but not really what most families need as an everyday car.
I do this;
http://www.mccrash.co.uk/
This;
and sometimes this (yes those are chains);
Admittedly the rallying is only for a few weekends in a year and the skiing is once a year, for the rest of the time I want a well made estate (see what I did there
) with reasonable performance that will carry the family in comfort.They may not suit you, your needs or your family, I'm happy that they're available as I love 'em. I can just see the look on the Marshal's face if I pull up at a time control in a Macan, probably worse than when I did it in a black X3 with blacked out windows
ORD said:
I think this class of vehicle is almost completely pointless - it's not a proper 4*4 and it has minimal (if any) advantages and lots of disadvantages relative to an estate car.
From these photos, its clearance looks fairly standard for a road car, for example, so I doubt anyone will take it off road. The suspension and other options that might allow you to do so will be rare.
I expect the turbo to be a bit dangerous, to be honest. It will have enough Porsche punch, balance and rigidity to tempt you into driving fast but will still be a million miles from a sports car when pressed. Despite (or because of) the good engineering, I think it might let go on corners fairly suddenly. If that is right, a lot of Londoners will see the little yellow light on the screen flash a bit when they take it out of town.
Despite all of the above, I would be quite happy to buy a Macan. The problem is that the more powerful versions will be so damn tempting but crazy expensive (given that it will always be the run around for 2 or 3 car households and so the great performance will be useless on most journeys).
Except for very wealthy people, wouldnt we be better served by getting a cheap SUV or estate for the family and spending the extra money on a better sports car for the weekend, etc?
(I dont mean to attack the Macan or criticise its fans - it is obviously going to be very good, and I quite like it. I am trying to think with my head rather than my heart. My heart wants the turbo right now.)
I'd say the number one reason SUV's and the like are so popular is the higher driving position. Second, the AWD which help massively in wet and snowy conditions. We see snow every year. Most practical cars we have evr owned and I'd never go back to a saloon/estate for family duties. If I can buy a more sporty version, all the better.From these photos, its clearance looks fairly standard for a road car, for example, so I doubt anyone will take it off road. The suspension and other options that might allow you to do so will be rare.
I expect the turbo to be a bit dangerous, to be honest. It will have enough Porsche punch, balance and rigidity to tempt you into driving fast but will still be a million miles from a sports car when pressed. Despite (or because of) the good engineering, I think it might let go on corners fairly suddenly. If that is right, a lot of Londoners will see the little yellow light on the screen flash a bit when they take it out of town.
Despite all of the above, I would be quite happy to buy a Macan. The problem is that the more powerful versions will be so damn tempting but crazy expensive (given that it will always be the run around for 2 or 3 car households and so the great performance will be useless on most journeys).
Except for very wealthy people, wouldnt we be better served by getting a cheap SUV or estate for the family and spending the extra money on a better sports car for the weekend, etc?
(I dont mean to attack the Macan or criticise its fans - it is obviously going to be very good, and I quite like it. I am trying to think with my head rather than my heart. My heart wants the turbo right now.)
Thanks for the thoughtful response, Ranger 6.
I can see that the Macan is absolutely ideal for your needs and wants. I also think I probably tend to underestimate the advantages of a small SUV more generally.
I live in West London and have years of hostility to 4*4s to overcome. Years of trying to squeeze past single-occupant vehicles that more than fill the available lane space; years of being forced to a standstill by huge cars driven too fast in the centre of a major city...etc etc.
But I accept that is just prejudice and should not stop me assessing a car on its merit.
Re the Turbo. I dont doubt for one second that it will handle as well as a 1700kg SUV can. I say it will be dangerous (probably the wrong choice of word) for two reasons:-
(1) It will be absurdly fast. Because of all the Porsche cleverness, it will feel like a much lower, smaller and lighter car in terms of responsiveness, lack of roll, etc. I think people will accidentally push its grip more than they would in most other cars because they wont feel the edge coming.
(2) I understand that SUVs benefit more than any other vehicle from electronic aids in avoiding single car accidents, which suggests to me that SUV drivers generally tend to push and exceed their cars' dynamic abilities more than do drivers of other cars.
I can see that the Macan is absolutely ideal for your needs and wants. I also think I probably tend to underestimate the advantages of a small SUV more generally.
I live in West London and have years of hostility to 4*4s to overcome. Years of trying to squeeze past single-occupant vehicles that more than fill the available lane space; years of being forced to a standstill by huge cars driven too fast in the centre of a major city...etc etc.
But I accept that is just prejudice and should not stop me assessing a car on its merit.
Re the Turbo. I dont doubt for one second that it will handle as well as a 1700kg SUV can. I say it will be dangerous (probably the wrong choice of word) for two reasons:-
(1) It will be absurdly fast. Because of all the Porsche cleverness, it will feel like a much lower, smaller and lighter car in terms of responsiveness, lack of roll, etc. I think people will accidentally push its grip more than they would in most other cars because they wont feel the edge coming.
(2) I understand that SUVs benefit more than any other vehicle from electronic aids in avoiding single car accidents, which suggests to me that SUV drivers generally tend to push and exceed their cars' dynamic abilities more than do drivers of other cars.
Not sure where you get this info from but I think you might be misguided!
Not everyone lives in London.
These cars are developed at the 'ring and as such they are going to be pretty good in terms of handling.
Porsche have already said the Macan will be more dynamic than the Cayenne with oversteer a bit more of a prescence in the Macan.
Porsche have taken 100+kg out of the Macan over the Q5 - and I did not pass many burning Q5's upside down in ditches recently....
IME, having owned my fair share of Pork, their stability control is some of the best in the business.
I think the Macan will be a nimble version of the Cayenne. Interior space will be less, but then if you want a big car get the Cayenne. Or RR. Or Q7. Or X5.
Not everyone lives in London.
These cars are developed at the 'ring and as such they are going to be pretty good in terms of handling.
Porsche have already said the Macan will be more dynamic than the Cayenne with oversteer a bit more of a prescence in the Macan.
Porsche have taken 100+kg out of the Macan over the Q5 - and I did not pass many burning Q5's upside down in ditches recently....
IME, having owned my fair share of Pork, their stability control is some of the best in the business.
I think the Macan will be a nimble version of the Cayenne. Interior space will be less, but then if you want a big car get the Cayenne. Or RR. Or Q7. Or X5.
I agree that the Macan will handle very well for an SUV.
Various studies have shown that ESC makes a bigger difference in avoiding single car accidents for SUVs than for standard cars(see e.g. http://phys.org/news66585859.html)
I take from that, maybe wrongly, that SUV drivers are more likely to take a corner faster than they should. I suppose it might also be that ESC is more effective on SUVs...but I am not sure why that would be (perhaps something to do with how it works on AWD cars, I suppose).
Various studies have shown that ESC makes a bigger difference in avoiding single car accidents for SUVs than for standard cars(see e.g. http://phys.org/news66585859.html)
I take from that, maybe wrongly, that SUV drivers are more likely to take a corner faster than they should. I suppose it might also be that ESC is more effective on SUVs...but I am not sure why that would be (perhaps something to do with how it works on AWD cars, I suppose).
It's what suits need, perception and (regrettably for everything except residuals) aspiration, but not necessarily in that order. Every time I visit London, I'm startled by the number of feckin' huge SUVs on the streets there, surely the epitomy of aspiration and perception over actual need? For many years I did have a perfectly standard estate (328i Touring) which was a lovely car, one that suited my then needs perfectly (and was sufficiently understated that it stayed nicely below the Plod's mental radar). However, when I moved to the Highlands, it became deeply impractical, having neither the ground clearance/wading depth nor the drive to cope with local conditions. Hence my being converted to SUVs. I currently have a diesel X5 40d which, whilst certainly no sports car (nor would I drive it as such), is very good to drive, surprisingly agile and will disappear up the road like a rabid weasel when the whim strikes. It is however rather unsmall so, for someone whose slightly reluctant need is for an SUV, and preferably one that is good over long distances AND twisty roads in all weathers, I'm really looking forward to the Macan. My deposit goes in this week.
Technomad said:
...I currently have a diesel X5 40d which, whilst certainly no sports car (nor would I drive it as such), is very good to drive, surprisingly agile and will disappear up the road like a rabid weasel when the whim strikes. It is however rather unsmall so, for someone whose slightly reluctant need is for an SUV, and preferably one that is good over long distances AND twisty roads in all weathers, I'm really looking forward to the Macan. My deposit goes in this week.
You get it 
I did try the X5 but found it too big and the X3 was much more agile on the Scottish single track roads and with the same 3.0d it's surprised a few.
I'd like to be able to stick an LOI on my dealers desk but I just want to make sure that the boot space isn't too small and back seat space is big enough for two teenagers (well one at the mo and another who will be while we have it). The Evoque was just a bit too small on both counts as well as not having a powerful diesel engine.
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