997 C2S needs more bark
Discussion
Afternoon all
I'm looking to move from a decade of BMW M power ownership (most models) to a 997C2S. I've been researching faults, specs & general risks of ownership, but I'm looking for other owners experience in enhancing the standard noise. I like the flat 6 noise but have found the standard exhaust a little quiet.
Anyone have feedback & experience on options (Good & Bad) to improve the noise?
Cheers
Tyrone
I'm looking to move from a decade of BMW M power ownership (most models) to a 997C2S. I've been researching faults, specs & general risks of ownership, but I'm looking for other owners experience in enhancing the standard noise. I like the flat 6 noise but have found the standard exhaust a little quiet.
Anyone have feedback & experience on options (Good & Bad) to improve the noise?
Cheers
Tyrone
Sharkwerks proving popular: http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
tjw110 said:
Afternoon all
I'm looking to move from a decade of BMW M power ownership (most models) to a 997C2S. I've been researching faults, specs & general risks of ownership, but I'm looking for other owners experience in enhancing the standard noise. I like the flat 6 noise but have found the standard exhaust a little quiet.
Anyone have feedback & experience on options (Good & Bad) to improve the noise?
Cheers
Tyrone
What year of 997S are you looking at? The solutions available for Gen-2 cars (MY 2009 on) are very different to those for Gen-1 cars.I'm looking to move from a decade of BMW M power ownership (most models) to a 997C2S. I've been researching faults, specs & general risks of ownership, but I'm looking for other owners experience in enhancing the standard noise. I like the flat 6 noise but have found the standard exhaust a little quiet.
Anyone have feedback & experience on options (Good & Bad) to improve the noise?
Cheers
Tyrone
Hi, have just picked up a 2009 997 Gen 2 C2S from Dove House. Chatting to the guys there, they steered me away from changing the exhaust. They were saying a lot of owners return to have the original one
swaped back as they eventually get fed up with drone or just excessive noise on a daily basis. Also they said buyers prefer Porsche's as original as possible. Also some of the after market exhausts don't give a Porsche sound track. Maybe go for the Porsche PSE. Dove House had an R8 in when I collected mine last weekend which had been fitted with a Quicksilver exhaust - totally ridiculous noise; it was unbelievably loud.They said it sounds like an F1 car when driving on the bypass.
swaped back as they eventually get fed up with drone or just excessive noise on a daily basis. Also they said buyers prefer Porsche's as original as possible. Also some of the after market exhausts don't give a Porsche sound track. Maybe go for the Porsche PSE. Dove House had an R8 in when I collected mine last weekend which had been fitted with a Quicksilver exhaust - totally ridiculous noise; it was unbelievably loud.They said it sounds like an F1 car when driving on the bypass.
hondansx said:
Exhausts are easily reversible; don't see why originality would come into it.
Gen 2 997s sound lame = FACT.
Just reporting back what the guys at Dove House were saying. You are right an exhaust is reversible but there is a cost associated with buying a new exhaust & labour to have it reversed.Gen 2 997s sound lame = FACT.
I agree the sound track on my 997 is quiet; which is why I asked Dove House their views in the first place. I don't want an exhaust which sounds like a supped-up jap car with a naff exhaust either. I think go subtle IMO if you are thinking of changing the exhaust. Each to their own
Ian_UK1 said:
What year of 997S are you looking at? The solutions available for Gen-2 cars (MY 2009 on) are very different to those for Gen-1 cars.
It's a 2006 3.8 Gen 1, I still have lots of learning to do regarding Porsche ownership & welcome support & advice. Any suggestions of a Porsche forums that offers genuine feedback & support rather than the usual key board warriors or condescending drivel if you don’t have the latest model on a new plate & an unlimited budget or your daring to move away from a factory finishI’ve always modified my M cars, to add a degree of personalization and develop the car to my needs & driving style so I’m keen to follow the same route with Porsche
I have the PSE and I strongly recomend it for a few reasons but mainly it is loud and sounds great, not over the top at all, but is switchable (I have an aftermarket remote switch from Carnewal cost about £150), so you can turn it to silent for early starts and motorway or if you're not in the mood.
It's not cheap, about £2kish to retrofit, but maintains originality & increases the desirability of your car on resale, and has the functional benefit of the switchability
It's not cheap, about £2kish to retrofit, but maintains originality & increases the desirability of your car on resale, and has the functional benefit of the switchability
tjw110 said:
It's a 2006 3.8 Gen 1, I still have lots of learning to do regarding Porsche ownership & welcome support & advice. Any suggestions of a Porsche forums that offers genuine feedback & support rather than the usual key board warriors or condescending drivel if you don’t have the latest model on a new plate & an unlimited budget or your daring to move away from a factory finish
I’ve always modified my M cars, to add a degree of personalization and develop the car to my needs & driving style so I’m keen to follow the same route with Porsche
With a Gen-1, it depends how far you want to go with exhaust mods and how much you want to spend. I’ve always modified my M cars, to add a degree of personalization and develop the car to my needs & driving style so I’m keen to follow the same route with Porsche
If it's just sound you want, then replacing the 2 silencers behind the rear wheels with a 'sports' option will improve things noticeably. Porsche's own Sports Exhaust sounds pretty good, but it's (very) expensive for what it is and gives no performance improvement whatsoever. It can be fitted with or without the switch/electronics/vacuum mods. Without them, it's in 'loud' mode all the time (but it's still quite tame). Other good options are from Cargraphic, Carnewal and Dansk. Tubi also makes as superb-sounding pair of silencers for this model - I had a set fitted to the Gen-1 I used to own at one point and liked them a lot.
If you're willing to go a little further, there's a lot more you can do. The Gen-1 997S has very restrictive 600-cell catalysers as standard and replacing these with 200-cells can free-up a good 20-25 BHP from this engine. It's particularly noticeable in the mid range - the extra torque at 4000 rpm once the new cats are in place is a pleasant surprise! Please bear in mind though, that the standard cats do almost as much silencing as the silencers. Removing that silencing (as happens with 200-cell units) makes the standard silencers sound absolutely bl**dy awful. Think cr*p-diesel-with-hole-in-exhaust awful! New cats definitely = matching silencers required.
The other item on the 997S.1 that's really nasty is the exhaust manifolds. The design is more akin to a 1950's tractor manifold than one you'd expect to find on a performance sports car. Again, replacing these can free-up another few BHP at the top of the rpm band.
If you're going to go the whole hog, then it makes sense to get a matching system from a reputable tuner - they'll have done the work to make sure all the bits work together, with regard to both sound and performance. Again Cargraphic gets my recommendation as their kit is always very effective. On my own 997S.1 I eventually swapped-out the Tubis (just the silencers, remember - the cats and manifolds were still the Porsche originals with the Tubis) for a full AWE Tuning system that I imported from the good ol' US of A. For quality, sound and performance, I couldn't fault it at all. It didn't quite meet AWE's claims, but an extra 28 BHP (measured on Wayne Schofield's rollers, so a reputable source of data) wasn't a bad result. It's 28 BHP more than the Porsche Sports Exhaust for not much more money and makes the PSE sound lame. Details and sound clips on AWE's web site.
Whilst we're on the subject of rolling roads (and hence remaps) in a single word - don't. I spent the best part of a (very expensive) day with Wayne Schofield (Chip Wizards - you can look them up on here for glowing reports) and we found the grand total of 12 BHP from my car - far too little to feel. It turns-out these engines are rather well mapped from the factory - any changes to the ignition timing past an extra degree or so, even on 99-RON fuel, were immediately negated by the knock sensors pulling the timing back again. We only found 6 BHP from re-mapping the ignition timing, whilst the other 6 came from leaning-out a slightly over-rich top-end. Unless you're chasing the last couple of tenths on a laptime (in which case you've got a GT3, not a 7S!) remapping is a total waste of time & money.
Another couple of mods that work rather well on the 997S.1:
a) Getting an inlet hose that disconnects the intake silencer inside the factory airbox. This puts back the induction noise Porsche took out. Don't believe any claims of performance gains. Design 911 do such a part. Blue hose about half way down the page: http://www.design911.co.uk/fu/pt697_703_-cma81-cmo...
b) A BMC-F1 panel filter to replace the standard Porsche filter in the factory airbox. The difference in throttle response this gives you is out of all proportion to the nature and price of the part. It's due to the normal filter being borderline too small - a BMC filter flows more per square inch than a paper filter so the restriction is lessened.
I wouldn't recommend replacing the factory airbox completely. Most of the so-called Cold Air Intakes available in the aftermarket actually draw hot air from the engine bay (and the M97 engine's mapping pulls ignition timing VERY rapidly if the air intake temps go up). The factory airbox, on the other hand, pulls cold air from above the engine deck-lid and breathes OK with the mods described above.
I hope some of this has been useful - enjoy the car and enjoy turning it into what you want - Porsche's factory compromises aren't for everyone.
One last thought. Whilst getting the car to sound awesome and hopefully extracting another 20 or 30 BHP from the engine is a lot of fun, the biggest performance upgrade I ever made to my 997S.1 (and the same is true of the 997S.2 I have now) is the suspension. The real-world difference in A-to-B times you gain from +30 BHP on a 355 BHP engine is minute. With the right suspension changes and geo, I reckon it's more like double-digit percentages. But that's a whole new topic for a whole new day!
Ian,
Thanks for the detailed feedback, I may well be contacting you for more information related to suspension set up & configuration
Tyrone
If it's just sound you want, then replacing the 2 silencers behind the rear wheels with a 'sports' option will improve things noticeably. Porsche's own Sports Exhaust sounds pretty good, but it's (very) expensive for what it is and gives no performance improvement whatsoever. It can be fitted with or without the switch/electronics/vacuum mods. Without them, it's in 'loud' mode all the time (but it's still quite tame). Other good options are from Cargraphic, Carnewal and Dansk. Tubi also makes as superb-sounding pair of silencers for this model - I had a set fitted to the Gen-1 I used to own at one point and liked them a lot.
If you're willing to go a little further, there's a lot more you can do. The Gen-1 997S has very restrictive 600-cell catalysers as standard and replacing these with 200-cells can free-up a good 20-25 BHP from this engine. It's particularly noticeable in the mid range - the extra torque at 4000 rpm once the new cats are in place is a pleasant surprise! Please bear in mind though, that the standard cats do almost as much silencing as the silencers. Removing that silencing (as happens with 200-cell units) makes the standard silencers sound absolutely bl**dy awful. Think cr*p-diesel-with-hole-in-exhaust awful! New cats definitely = matching silencers required.
The other item on the 997S.1 that's really nasty is the exhaust manifolds. The design is more akin to a 1950's tractor manifold than one you'd expect to find on a performance sports car. Again, replacing these can free-up another few BHP at the top of the rpm band.
If you're going to go the whole hog, then it makes sense to get a matching system from a reputable tuner - they'll have done the work to make sure all the bits work together, with regard to both sound and performance. Again Cargraphic gets my recommendation as their kit is always very effective. On my own 997S.1 I eventually swapped-out the Tubis (just the silencers, remember - the cats and manifolds were still the Porsche originals with the Tubis) for a full AWE Tuning system that I imported from the good ol' US of A. For quality, sound and performance, I couldn't fault it at all. It didn't quite meet AWE's claims, but an extra 28 BHP (measured on Wayne Schofield's rollers, so a reputable source of data) wasn't a bad result. It's 28 BHP more than the Porsche Sports Exhaust for not much more money and makes the PSE sound lame. Details and sound clips on AWE's web site.
Whilst we're on the subject of rolling roads (and hence remaps) in a single word - don't. I spent the best part of a (very expensive) day with Wayne Schofield (Chip Wizards - you can look them up on here for glowing reports) and we found the grand total of 12 BHP from my car - far too little to feel. It turns-out these engines are rather well mapped from the factory - any changes to the ignition timing past an extra degree or so, even on 99-RON fuel, were immediately negated by the knock sensors pulling the timing back again. We only found 6 BHP from re-mapping the ignition timing, whilst the other 6 came from leaning-out a slightly over-rich top-end. Unless you're chasing the last couple of tenths on a laptime (in which case you've got a GT3, not a 7S!) remapping is a total waste of time & money.
Another couple of mods that work rather well on the 997S.1:
a) Getting an inlet hose that disconnects the intake silencer inside the factory airbox. This puts back the induction noise Porsche took out. Don't believe any claims of performance gains. Design 911 do such a part. Blue hose about half way down the page: http://www.design911.co.uk/fu/pt697_703_-cma81-cmo...
b) A BMC-F1 panel filter to replace the standard Porsche filter in the factory airbox. The difference in throttle response this gives you is out of all proportion to the nature and price of the part. It's due to the normal filter being borderline too small - a BMC filter flows more per square inch than a paper filter so the restriction is lessened.
I wouldn't recommend replacing the factory airbox completely. Most of the so-called Cold Air Intakes available in the aftermarket actually draw hot air from the engine bay (and the M97 engine's mapping pulls ignition timing VERY rapidly if the air intake temps go up). The factory airbox, on the other hand, pulls cold air from above the engine deck-lid and breathes OK with the mods described above.
I hope some of this has been useful - enjoy the car and enjoy turning it into what you want - Porsche's factory compromises aren't for everyone.
One last thought. Whilst getting the car to sound awesome and hopefully extracting another 20 or 30 BHP from the engine is a lot of fun, the biggest performance upgrade I ever made to my 997S.1 (and the same is true of the 997S.2 I have now) is the suspension. The real-world difference in A-to-B times you gain from +30 BHP on a 355 BHP engine is minute. With the right suspension changes and geo, I reckon it's more like double-digit percentages. But that's a whole new topic for a whole new day!
Thanks for the detailed feedback, I may well be contacting you for more information related to suspension set up & configuration
Tyrone
Ian_UK1 said:
tjw110 said:
It's a 2006 3.8 Gen 1, I still have lots of learning to do regarding Porsche ownership & welcome support & advice. Any suggestions of a Porsche forums that offers genuine feedback & support rather than the usual key board warriors or condescending drivel if you don’t have the latest model on a new plate & an unlimited budget or your daring to move away from a factory finish
I’ve always modified my M cars, to add a degree of personalization and develop the car to my needs & driving style so I’m keen to follow the same route with Porsche
With a Gen-1, it depends how far you want to go with exhaust mods and how much you want to spend. I’ve always modified my M cars, to add a degree of personalization and develop the car to my needs & driving style so I’m keen to follow the same route with Porsche
If it's just sound you want, then replacing the 2 silencers behind the rear wheels with a 'sports' option will improve things noticeably. Porsche's own Sports Exhaust sounds pretty good, but it's (very) expensive for what it is and gives no performance improvement whatsoever. It can be fitted with or without the switch/electronics/vacuum mods. Without them, it's in 'loud' mode all the time (but it's still quite tame). Other good options are from Cargraphic, Carnewal and Dansk. Tubi also makes as superb-sounding pair of silencers for this model - I had a set fitted to the Gen-1 I used to own at one point and liked them a lot.
If you're willing to go a little further, there's a lot more you can do. The Gen-1 997S has very restrictive 600-cell catalysers as standard and replacing these with 200-cells can free-up a good 20-25 BHP from this engine. It's particularly noticeable in the mid range - the extra torque at 4000 rpm once the new cats are in place is a pleasant surprise! Please bear in mind though, that the standard cats do almost as much silencing as the silencers. Removing that silencing (as happens with 200-cell units) makes the standard silencers sound absolutely bl**dy awful. Think cr*p-diesel-with-hole-in-exhaust awful! New cats definitely = matching silencers required.
The other item on the 997S.1 that's really nasty is the exhaust manifolds. The design is more akin to a 1950's tractor manifold than one you'd expect to find on a performance sports car. Again, replacing these can free-up another few BHP at the top of the rpm band.
If you're going to go the whole hog, then it makes sense to get a matching system from a reputable tuner - they'll have done the work to make sure all the bits work together, with regard to both sound and performance. Again Cargraphic gets my recommendation as their kit is always very effective. On my own 997S.1 I eventually swapped-out the Tubis (just the silencers, remember - the cats and manifolds were still the Porsche originals with the Tubis) for a full AWE Tuning system that I imported from the good ol' US of A. For quality, sound and performance, I couldn't fault it at all. It didn't quite meet AWE's claims, but an extra 28 BHP (measured on Wayne Schofield's rollers, so a reputable source of data) wasn't a bad result. It's 28 BHP more than the Porsche Sports Exhaust for not much more money and makes the PSE sound lame. Details and sound clips on AWE's web site.
Whilst we're on the subject of rolling roads (and hence remaps) in a single word - don't. I spent the best part of a (very expensive) day with Wayne Schofield (Chip Wizards - you can look them up on here for glowing reports) and we found the grand total of 12 BHP from my car - far too little to feel. It turns-out these engines are rather well mapped from the factory - any changes to the ignition timing past an extra degree or so, even on 99-RON fuel, were immediately negated by the knock sensors pulling the timing back again. We only found 6 BHP from re-mapping the ignition timing, whilst the other 6 came from leaning-out a slightly over-rich top-end. Unless you're chasing the last couple of tenths on a laptime (in which case you've got a GT3, not a 7S!) remapping is a total waste of time & money.
Another couple of mods that work rather well on the 997S.1:
a) Getting an inlet hose that disconnects the intake silencer inside the factory airbox. This puts back the induction noise Porsche took out. Don't believe any claims of performance gains. Design 911 do such a part. Blue hose about half way down the page: http://www.design911.co.uk/fu/pt697_703_-cma81-cmo...
b) A BMC-F1 panel filter to replace the standard Porsche filter in the factory airbox. The difference in throttle response this gives you is out of all proportion to the nature and price of the part. It's due to the normal filter being borderline too small - a BMC filter flows more per square inch than a paper filter so the restriction is lessened.
I wouldn't recommend replacing the factory airbox completely. Most of the so-called Cold Air Intakes available in the aftermarket actually draw hot air from the engine bay (and the M97 engine's mapping pulls ignition timing VERY rapidly if the air intake temps go up). The factory airbox, on the other hand, pulls cold air from above the engine deck-lid and breathes OK with the mods described above.
I hope some of this has been useful - enjoy the car and enjoy turning it into what you want - Porsche's factory compromises aren't for everyone.
One last thought. Whilst getting the car to sound awesome and hopefully extracting another 20 or 30 BHP from the engine is a lot of fun, the biggest performance upgrade I ever made to my 997S.1 (and the same is true of the 997S.2 I have now) is the suspension. The real-world difference in A-to-B times you gain from +30 BHP on a 355 BHP engine is minute. With the right suspension changes and geo, I reckon it's more like double-digit percentages. But that's a whole new topic for a whole new day!
tjw110 said:
Any suggestions of a Porsche forums that offers genuine feedback & support rather than the usual key board warriors or condescending drivel if you don’t have the latest model on a new plate & an unlimited budget or your daring to move away from a factory finish
get yourself over to 911uk.com, all very friendly and offer a lot of support and knowledge.Steve
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