GT3 vs CSL - few questions
Discussion
Hi Guys,
I'm about to change my Z3M for either a GT3 or a CSL. Considering both the 1999 car and the 2003 model. Few questions for you all:
1. How much difference is there between the 1999 GT3 and the 2003 car? Know the stats, but how do they stack up on the road and track? I've heard that the earlier cars are slightly better on track, but the later cars are more flexible/compliant.
2. How 'tuneable' is the 1999 car? Anyone out there gone down the sports exhaust + racing cats (or de-cat) + Gruppe M intake + DMS or similar ECU remap. What's the potential gain, power wise (without compromising reliability).
3. How does the GT3 stack up performance wise to the CSL? I've seen the stats, read the reviews, and seen that a lot of CSL owners rate it higher than a GT3 on track despite the performance advantage of the GT3. What are your thoughts/experiences pro-GT3???
Thanks in advance!
I'm about to change my Z3M for either a GT3 or a CSL. Considering both the 1999 car and the 2003 model. Few questions for you all:
1. How much difference is there between the 1999 GT3 and the 2003 car? Know the stats, but how do they stack up on the road and track? I've heard that the earlier cars are slightly better on track, but the later cars are more flexible/compliant.
2. How 'tuneable' is the 1999 car? Anyone out there gone down the sports exhaust + racing cats (or de-cat) + Gruppe M intake + DMS or similar ECU remap. What's the potential gain, power wise (without compromising reliability).
3. How does the GT3 stack up performance wise to the CSL? I've seen the stats, read the reviews, and seen that a lot of CSL owners rate it higher than a GT3 on track despite the performance advantage of the GT3. What are your thoughts/experiences pro-GT3???
Thanks in advance!
shotokan said:
Hi Guys,
3. How does the GT3 stack up performance wise to the CSL? I've seen the stats, read the reviews, and seen that a lot of CSL owners rate it higher than a GT3 on track despite the performance advantage of the GT3. What are your thoughts/experiences pro-GT3???
Thanks in advance!
Of course the CSL owners will say that !!!
I have much respect for the CSL, but the GT3 in MKI or MKII guise, is in a league of its own.
The MKI is fast becoming an icon, moreso than the MKII due to its limited numbers.
a MKI will certainly hold its value much better than any CSL ever will.
The engine pulls a little bit more in the MKII, but the MKI is a little lighter, which can be an advantage around the twisty bits.
I believe that he MKI has slighly better turn in on track.
As for tunability, there are quite a few mods available for both cars, the main performance gains are made by new exhaust and uprated ECU.
I am having these done at the mo' to my MKII,and am picking car up today
i'm having Manthey K410 Engine upgrade which should make it at least 410bhp. I'm also having the Manthey Suspension, which should give even better trackday gains than the engine upgrades.
These kits are also available for the MKI
G.
>> Edited by glenn mcmenamin on Saturday 26th February 07:21
>> Edited by glenn mcmenamin on Saturday 26th February 07:26
I've just been through this - well more accurately 993RS, 964RS, GT3 mk1, mk2, M3.
Have to say that the M3 did nothing for me whatsoever. It was fast, but still a 3 series; also i thought the engines in all the Porsches felt much more special.
I bought a mk1 GT3 - it felt the most direct to drive. Also, in terms of value i thought it was far better VFM than 993RS which in LHD form were as expensive as what i paid for a 2k gt3 mk1. 964RS was older, mk2 GT3 didn't feel as direct tho' i almost did get one.
No shortage of tunability for the mk1.
See previous copies of 911PW for Richard Long's heavily modified car, or a few owners recently doing the Manthey Motors conversion. The likes of Cargraphic, Gemballa and TEchart all have their own programmes too. The car is so good out of the box that you may not want to....
Cheers
Ajit.
Happy hunting.
Ajit.
Have to say that the M3 did nothing for me whatsoever. It was fast, but still a 3 series; also i thought the engines in all the Porsches felt much more special.
I bought a mk1 GT3 - it felt the most direct to drive. Also, in terms of value i thought it was far better VFM than 993RS which in LHD form were as expensive as what i paid for a 2k gt3 mk1. 964RS was older, mk2 GT3 didn't feel as direct tho' i almost did get one.
No shortage of tunability for the mk1.
See previous copies of 911PW for Richard Long's heavily modified car, or a few owners recently doing the Manthey Motors conversion. The likes of Cargraphic, Gemballa and TEchart all have their own programmes too. The car is so good out of the box that you may not want to....
Cheers
Ajit.
Happy hunting.
Ajit.
I've gone the other way. So to speak.
Had a GT3 Mk1 Clubsport, Mk2 Clubsport and a GT3RS, just bought a CSL.
CSL laptimes are very similar to the RS, although I haven't been on track yet with mine I did ask around and found other GT3 owners who went to CSL's.
The CSL is definitely more fun on the road, much less skittish and a better everyday drive. Once you have switche dthe traction control off, selected the fastest gearchange and opened the induction flap it is very much down to the drivers skill and involving.
The biggest difference I felt was the steering, which is dead compared to the 911. However, setting the front up to 2 deg neg camber apparently puts some feel back, and upgrading the brakes evens it out with the GT3.
It's not as special as a 911, it is after all a BMW 3 series, but on the other hand you can park it anywhere and as I paid 36K for my one against 85K for the RS, I feel happier taking it on track.
BTW, my RS is still in the Classifieds section !
Had a GT3 Mk1 Clubsport, Mk2 Clubsport and a GT3RS, just bought a CSL.
CSL laptimes are very similar to the RS, although I haven't been on track yet with mine I did ask around and found other GT3 owners who went to CSL's.
The CSL is definitely more fun on the road, much less skittish and a better everyday drive. Once you have switche dthe traction control off, selected the fastest gearchange and opened the induction flap it is very much down to the drivers skill and involving.
The biggest difference I felt was the steering, which is dead compared to the 911. However, setting the front up to 2 deg neg camber apparently puts some feel back, and upgrading the brakes evens it out with the GT3.
It's not as special as a 911, it is after all a BMW 3 series, but on the other hand you can park it anywhere and as I paid 36K for my one against 85K for the RS, I feel happier taking it on track.
BTW, my RS is still in the Classifieds section !
beaver said:
The biggest difference I felt was the steering, which is dead compared to the 911.
...
and as I paid 36K for my one against 85K for the RS, I feel happier taking it on track.
That sums up my experience after trying the two back-to-back. The CSL steering was not brilliant - but I'd be more confident pushing it hard on the track, just because it costs less...
I would agree with pretty much everything that has been said.
Performance wise, I dont think there is much in it.
Both cars are stunningly fast and handle really well.
Personally I prefer the lower drving position of the gt3 and the weight over those rear wheels gives enormous traction.
What it really should come down to is practicality and "specialness".
If you need the seats and its your only car...its got to be the CSL.
If not, and you desire something that looks like a "supercar" (if you get it in the right colour of course!) ....the GT3 is the one to get.
I considered both before getting mine.
If I had gone for the CSL..I know Id always be thinking about a GT3.
Since getting a GT3, although I do like CSLs, getting one has never even entered my mind.
IMHO
Performance wise, I dont think there is much in it.
Both cars are stunningly fast and handle really well.
Personally I prefer the lower drving position of the gt3 and the weight over those rear wheels gives enormous traction.
What it really should come down to is practicality and "specialness".
If you need the seats and its your only car...its got to be the CSL.
If not, and you desire something that looks like a "supercar" (if you get it in the right colour of course!) ....the GT3 is the one to get.
I considered both before getting mine.
If I had gone for the CSL..I know Id always be thinking about a GT3.
Since getting a GT3, although I do like CSLs, getting one has never even entered my mind.
IMHO
i tested the csl before I bought my turbo. The power of the csl was really noticably poorer than any of my previous cars, and the csl felt no quicker tham my boggo 996 I was driving then. Handling was good though.
csl loses sooooooooooooooooooo much value, I'd avoid it like the plague!
csl loses sooooooooooooooooooo much value, I'd avoid it like the plague!
They may lose value initially but now there's never been a better time to buy a CSL.
They are a completely different beast to the standard M3, although they are a little weak on their standard brakes.
A truely excellent car, just stop thinking it's a 3-series, it a lot, lot more and then some.
Damian
They are a completely different beast to the standard M3, although they are a little weak on their standard brakes.
A truely excellent car, just stop thinking it's a 3-series, it a lot, lot more and then some.
Damian
I've looked and test drove a couple of CSL's in the last few months, it’s a good car, (feels about as quick 996 on the road, but very strong times on track) but as others have said the steering is lifeless compared to any Porsche. It didn't seem that special either.
I could have got used to the auto/paddle shift gearbox and I was impressed with the brakes and turn-in. One thing I really didn’t like was the seats, fixed racing bucket type, to upright and not very adjustable.
>> Edited by bumcrack on Saturday 26th February 18:10
I could have got used to the auto/paddle shift gearbox and I was impressed with the brakes and turn-in. One thing I really didn’t like was the seats, fixed racing bucket type, to upright and not very adjustable.
>> Edited by bumcrack on Saturday 26th February 18:10
Can't argue with the logic if its your only car/daily car. My best mate has an M3 and survives all my jokes about BMW drivers etc on the grounds that its a great all rounder.
In terms of value though, £36k v early 40s for a LHD GT3 mk1 would not suggest that there's much to be bagged in terms of cash by getting a CSL.
Not sure how relative values will hold up - the GT3 mk1 has probably had a lot of its depreciaiton already - the 3 series based M3/CSL may suffer a lot as the new shape 3 series gets these uber-models.
Just my 0.02
Cheers
Ajit.
PS - in terms of practicality, i loved my old 993 - or even the 3.2 carrera that my wife has.
In terms of value though, £36k v early 40s for a LHD GT3 mk1 would not suggest that there's much to be bagged in terms of cash by getting a CSL.
Not sure how relative values will hold up - the GT3 mk1 has probably had a lot of its depreciaiton already - the 3 series based M3/CSL may suffer a lot as the new shape 3 series gets these uber-models.
Just my 0.02
Cheers
Ajit.
PS - in terms of practicality, i loved my old 993 - or even the 3.2 carrera that my wife has.
The other thing about the CSL is it is quite a lot like playing a video game. Which, if you want to be anal about "driver involvement" - as I was, is a negative.
But, then again, it's actually very addictive.
Especially the rude noise when the induction flap does it's thing and when it automatically blips the throttle in a Ferrari F1 type way on downchanges. The RS was magnificent on track (the few times I actually used it there) but a bit annoying on the road. Other than putting a lump in your pants because it looks outrageous and making you think you are in a race car it's not the sort of car you want to keep on driving as you pass your house.
So, unless you want the car just for the track, it begins to lose it's appeal.
I'm gonna miss it though.....
But, then again, it's actually very addictive.
Especially the rude noise when the induction flap does it's thing and when it automatically blips the throttle in a Ferrari F1 type way on downchanges. The RS was magnificent on track (the few times I actually used it there) but a bit annoying on the road. Other than putting a lump in your pants because it looks outrageous and making you think you are in a race car it's not the sort of car you want to keep on driving as you pass your house.
So, unless you want the car just for the track, it begins to lose it's appeal.
I'm gonna miss it though.....
independent porsche/ferarri garage I take my car to maintain a 'club car' (enzo's, gt3s etc..) Mechanic was telling me the club were selling a one year old CSL because no-one bothered with it. However he said they took it on donnington track & it battered the GT3
GT3 £90k
CSL £40k
He was desperate to buy the CSL himself - but no money!
I adore most porsches, totally love the GT3 but value for money I think a year old CSL if it were me.
GT3 £90k
CSL £40k
He was desperate to buy the CSL himself - but no money!
I adore most porsches, totally love the GT3 but value for money I think a year old CSL if it were me.
soir said:
independent porsche/ferarri garage I take my car to maintain a 'club car' (enzo's, gt3s etc..) Mechanic was telling me the club were selling a one year old CSL because no-one bothered with it. However he said they took it on donnington track & it battered the GT3
GT3 £90k
CSL £40k
He was desperate to buy the CSL himself - but no money!
I adore most porsches, totally love the GT3 but value for money I think a year old CSL if it were me.
my gt3 cost me £50k
only had 9000 miles.
soir said:
independent porsche/ferarri garage I take my car to maintain a 'club car' (enzo's, gt3s etc..) Mechanic was telling me the club were selling a one year old CSL because no-one bothered with it. However he said they took it on donnington track & it battered the GT3
GT3 £90k
CSL £40k
He was desperate to buy the CSL himself - but no money!
I adore most porsches, totally love the GT3 but value for money I think a year old CSL if it were me.
The only second hand GT3 for anywhere near £90k would have to be an RS version and that's still steap for one of those !!
An RS would make a CSL look silly.
Good second hand MKI GT3's can be had for around £50k mark, and i know what i'd rather have !!
At £40k the CSL still has a long way to go, the Porsche will be at that price for still some time to come, so the extra £10k would be well worth it IMHO.
G.
>> Edited by Glenn McMenamin on Monday 28th February 14:03
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