GT3 vs CSL - few questions
Discussion
There's a great deal of smoke and subterfuge that goes on when discussing such an emotive subject.
A GT3 or a GT3RS in my experience is not in a different league. I owned a GT3 Mk1 a few years ago and have a 997 GT3 on order. I've passengered in several GT3RS' and driven lap after lap with GT3RS' on track with me driving in my M3 CSL. I've got 20 or so years of track driving and competition driving experience and they guy I was following was also an experienced racer, so I think it merits a fair comparison.
I've also owned a 996 C2 in the past and the CSL is notably quicker. I've out accelerated many C2s or C4s along Bedford's 1km straight so know how much quicker a CSL is.
When testing a CSL you unfortunately need to ensure you set the electronics properly. That means 'Sport' button on, M-track or DSC-OFF and S5 or above in the sequential box. The CSL also requires a few modifications to perform consistently on track, the brakes need upgraded to the 6-pot AP items and the front camber and toe need to be set-up (-2 degrees or more for camber). Once sorted the CSL will lap Donington National at around 1 min 20 or less (thus far the quickest have been around 1:18). Around some tracks an RS will be a second or so a lap quicker, but around others such as Spa there's nothing in it. In fact a swedish magazine when testing a CSL with uprated brakes and wider front tyres recorded a time 7 seconds faster around the Nurburgring than they were able with a GT3RS driven by the same driver (Touring car driver Fredrik Ekblom) on the same day/conditions.
I really isn't worth following the 'mine's bigger than yours' argument with either of these cars. They are what they are and you either prefer one or the other. Performance wise though a GT3 and CSL will be nigh on identical and it will come down to your style of driving and confidence, in terms of what you will achieve from them.
Price is a non-issue also. Amongst the 12 or more Porsches I've owned over the years I've also owned a Boxster S (which I only paid £43k for compared to the £73k I paid for my GT3). I can't find any material difference between them from a price/quality perspective. Neither could I find any difference between my M3 CSL and my GT3 Mk1. I've known for a long time that the price I pay for my 911s is inflated compared to what it could be, so you really cannot say that an £80k Porsche is in a different league to a £60k BMW. CSL prices seem to have bottomed out now that the last few new cars have been sold, so we'll have to see in the longer term which car holds it's value better. At the moment GT3 Mk1s seem to have dropped into the low £40ks...
A GT3 or a GT3RS in my experience is not in a different league. I owned a GT3 Mk1 a few years ago and have a 997 GT3 on order. I've passengered in several GT3RS' and driven lap after lap with GT3RS' on track with me driving in my M3 CSL. I've got 20 or so years of track driving and competition driving experience and they guy I was following was also an experienced racer, so I think it merits a fair comparison.
I've also owned a 996 C2 in the past and the CSL is notably quicker. I've out accelerated many C2s or C4s along Bedford's 1km straight so know how much quicker a CSL is.
When testing a CSL you unfortunately need to ensure you set the electronics properly. That means 'Sport' button on, M-track or DSC-OFF and S5 or above in the sequential box. The CSL also requires a few modifications to perform consistently on track, the brakes need upgraded to the 6-pot AP items and the front camber and toe need to be set-up (-2 degrees or more for camber). Once sorted the CSL will lap Donington National at around 1 min 20 or less (thus far the quickest have been around 1:18). Around some tracks an RS will be a second or so a lap quicker, but around others such as Spa there's nothing in it. In fact a swedish magazine when testing a CSL with uprated brakes and wider front tyres recorded a time 7 seconds faster around the Nurburgring than they were able with a GT3RS driven by the same driver (Touring car driver Fredrik Ekblom) on the same day/conditions.
I really isn't worth following the 'mine's bigger than yours' argument with either of these cars. They are what they are and you either prefer one or the other. Performance wise though a GT3 and CSL will be nigh on identical and it will come down to your style of driving and confidence, in terms of what you will achieve from them.
Price is a non-issue also. Amongst the 12 or more Porsches I've owned over the years I've also owned a Boxster S (which I only paid £43k for compared to the £73k I paid for my GT3). I can't find any material difference between them from a price/quality perspective. Neither could I find any difference between my M3 CSL and my GT3 Mk1. I've known for a long time that the price I pay for my 911s is inflated compared to what it could be, so you really cannot say that an £80k Porsche is in a different league to a £60k BMW. CSL prices seem to have bottomed out now that the last few new cars have been sold, so we'll have to see in the longer term which car holds it's value better. At the moment GT3 Mk1s seem to have dropped into the low £40ks...
Agree with DoctorD. My CSL was so good, we slapped a cage in it and entered it into the EERC Britcar series. The car will lap Donington on a cold day in about 1m16, and in it's first two outings picked up 3rd and 1st in class (which was actually 3rd overall). This is against 996 cup cars, 360 Challenge and NGT cars etc with top drivers, not muppets. The CSL still had a stereo and air con in!
The key thing about the M3 is that it is very easy to drive fast in all conditions. I have a 360 CS also, and have driven various GT3s, including the RS. I loved the RS, but I don't subscribe to the style of driving required to enjoy a porsche, and to get the best out of it. The CSL is incredible value for money as it stands right now - a real performance bargain.
However, I think it is not an everyday car, and not really a track ready car either. As DoctorD said - it needs a little work to be ideal. If I had the means, I would chose the GT3-RS or 360CS for track only use and occasional road use.
The key thing about the M3 is that it is very easy to drive fast in all conditions. I have a 360 CS also, and have driven various GT3s, including the RS. I loved the RS, but I don't subscribe to the style of driving required to enjoy a porsche, and to get the best out of it. The CSL is incredible value for money as it stands right now - a real performance bargain.
However, I think it is not an everyday car, and not really a track ready car either. As DoctorD said - it needs a little work to be ideal. If I had the means, I would chose the GT3-RS or 360CS for track only use and occasional road use.
Go to www.autoexpress.co.uk/?evo then Road Test Archive - BMW M3 CSL vs GT3. I won't spoil the ending but it's an interesting comparison and well worth the read.
I had this young race driver take me around the track in a GT3 CS and while driving I asked him what his favorite track car was at the momement. To my surprise he said the CSL by a margin. Forgot all the detailed reasons but something like more fun and faster...
Just one additional view
Just one additional view
The CSL is much, much better than people expect. In truth the GT3RS should be quicker given the development and paper performance advantage. But in my experience the CSL always beats them on circuit. It may be the BMW is easier to access the performance (or BMW drivers are more skilled 
)
I have been up against them at Brands GP, Spa, Silverstone (national and GP), Donington, Oulton and round the 'ring. In all of those cases the CSL was quicker with the ONE exception at Spa, where one of 5 GB cars were there, and one on slicks managed to lap 3 seconds quicker than me.
To be fair I have got KW suspension, SuperSprint exhaust and AP brakes on mine, but the mods cost less than £10k on a car that is £25k cheaper, and second hand now can be bought for less than £40k.
As mark of how brilliant the CSL is, I was a passenger in a (reasonably well driven) Ferrari 360CS round Brands GP. After 6 laps we slowed down and instantly my buddy in his CSL whipped past. He had caught us up! The Ferrari felt as if it was working hard and was on edge (but in reality it had some more performance to give up). The CSL was clearly being taken to the limit, but it was well within the bounds of a good trackday driver.
The CSL pound for pound is a much better trackday / everyday car. To and from the circuit the BMW is much more civilised than a GT3RS.
Can a GT3RS lap Combe in 1.17? The CSL can.
Munich has it in my opinion.
>> Edited by phatgixer on Monday 28th February 17:02
) I have been up against them at Brands GP, Spa, Silverstone (national and GP), Donington, Oulton and round the 'ring. In all of those cases the CSL was quicker with the ONE exception at Spa, where one of 5 GB cars were there, and one on slicks managed to lap 3 seconds quicker than me.
To be fair I have got KW suspension, SuperSprint exhaust and AP brakes on mine, but the mods cost less than £10k on a car that is £25k cheaper, and second hand now can be bought for less than £40k.
As mark of how brilliant the CSL is, I was a passenger in a (reasonably well driven) Ferrari 360CS round Brands GP. After 6 laps we slowed down and instantly my buddy in his CSL whipped past. He had caught us up! The Ferrari felt as if it was working hard and was on edge (but in reality it had some more performance to give up). The CSL was clearly being taken to the limit, but it was well within the bounds of a good trackday driver.
The CSL pound for pound is a much better trackday / everyday car. To and from the circuit the BMW is much more civilised than a GT3RS.
Can a GT3RS lap Combe in 1.17? The CSL can.
Munich has it in my opinion.
>> Edited by phatgixer on Monday 28th February 17:02
A post script to the above is the press...
As far as I am aware, no one has tested a very lightly modded CSL (camber and pads forinstance). Evo have taken it Bedford 2 seconds quicker since the road test apparently but have not corrected their stats.
I know Peter Tomalin posts here, perhaps he could re-dress the injustice and borrow mine for a day and pitch it against a GT3RS? It might have to be at Donington though as it is too noisy for Bedford
Pre mods pix...
post mod pix...
..and a couple I shared with Evoblade racing..
Nice things.
>> Edited by phatgixer on Monday 28th February 17:19
As far as I am aware, no one has tested a very lightly modded CSL (camber and pads forinstance). Evo have taken it Bedford 2 seconds quicker since the road test apparently but have not corrected their stats.
I know Peter Tomalin posts here, perhaps he could re-dress the injustice and borrow mine for a day and pitch it against a GT3RS? It might have to be at Donington though as it is too noisy for Bedford
Pre mods pix...
post mod pix...
..and a couple I shared with Evoblade racing..
Nice things.
>> Edited by phatgixer on Monday 28th February 17:19
looks like it's down to personal preference rather than performance/price etc..
I really didn't realise you could get a new-ish GT3 for £50k. For this money if a CSL was still at £40k I'd probably go for the GT3 then, but what do I know I drive a boxster (not even an S)
Maybe one day I'll have a proper 911?!!
I really didn't realise you could get a new-ish GT3 for £50k. For this money if a CSL was still at £40k I'd probably go for the GT3 then, but what do I know I drive a boxster (not even an S)
Maybe one day I'll have a proper 911?!!
shotokan said:
Hi Guys,
I'm about to change my Z3M for either a GT3 or a CSL. Considering both the 1999 car and the 2003 model. Few questions for you all:
1. How much difference is there between the 1999 GT3 and the 2003 car? Know the stats, but how do they stack up on the road and track? I've heard that the earlier cars are slightly better on track, but the later cars are more flexible/compliant.
2. How 'tuneable' is the 1999 car? Anyone out there gone down the sports exhaust + racing cats (or de-cat) + Gruppe M intake + DMS or similar ECU remap. What's the potential gain, power wise (without compromising reliability).
3. How does the GT3 stack up performance wise to the CSL? I've seen the stats, read the reviews, and seen that a lot of CSL owners rate it higher than a GT3 on track despite the performance advantage of the GT3. What are your thoughts/experiences pro-GT3???
Thanks in advance!
Seems we've rather hi-jacked this thread.
In answer to your original questions:
1. That's about right. The Mk1 is the better track machine, whilst the Mk2 is a more tolerant day-to-day steed. The theory is that the Mk2 was designed for the US market (which didn't receive the MK1) and therefore was not as focused. The MK2 sounds better though (IMO) and pulls harder at the top end.
2. There's plenty of talk at the moment about the range of Manthey conversions for the GT3 (the M400 and M410 if I remember correctly). They're proper engineered conversions that really add to the GT3 experience. They're available from JZ Machtech and will cost around £5k. Power wise you would be looking at 400bhp + and I understand they are very reliable. I certainly would not consider a mix and match of chip tuning and exhaust/induction mods when someone has already done all the hard work and produced a spot-on package.
soir said:
looks like it's down to personal preference rather than performance/price etc..
I really didn't realise you could get a new-ish GT3 for £50k. For this money if a CSL was still at £40k I'd probably go for the GT3 then.
Personal preference - absolutely. The Porsche frock is much nicer than the grey suited Bimmer
Phatgixxer, I think one thing to bear in mind is the Porsche is much harder to drive fast than the CSL. You can easily mod a GT3-RS, which in fairness isn't far off a Cup car. I have come against a modded one at Spa that was totally ballistic, but had well over 400bhp and proper suspension.
Most people, even if they won't admit it, are mere mortals when it comes to driving. The CSL with M-Track, ABS etc is a far faster and safer proposition than a GT3-RS.
Another point to make about all these tests is that different cars favour different circuits. Interesting point about the CSL though, is that it works well on all circuits. Not true for the 360 for sure!
I wouldn't quote the 360CS episode at Brands as an example either - it was the day after my first service (!) and the car had (as I now know) toe out at the rear and was twitchy as hell! I was also quite nervous with it being £140k!
But, it doesn't even matter. Not many can afford a 360 CS, or even a GT3-RS. If you want a dedicated track car, then there are better and quicker options sub 50k than a CSL - but, if you want a car that can take 4 fatties, lap a race track at GT3 pace, give you a cracking A and B road drive, do 22mpg AND you can park it most places without anyone blinking AND 90% of people can drive fast in the dry or the wet, a CSL is very hard to beat.
One final point - I am 6ft3 and average build. I can fit in a 360CS, and a CSL with ease - but not a GT3 or GT3RS.
I still the GT3RS and am STILL tempted to have one! It isn't special enough over the other two though to warrant it.
Most people, even if they won't admit it, are mere mortals when it comes to driving. The CSL with M-Track, ABS etc is a far faster and safer proposition than a GT3-RS.
Another point to make about all these tests is that different cars favour different circuits. Interesting point about the CSL though, is that it works well on all circuits. Not true for the 360 for sure!
I wouldn't quote the 360CS episode at Brands as an example either - it was the day after my first service (!) and the car had (as I now know) toe out at the rear and was twitchy as hell! I was also quite nervous with it being £140k!
But, it doesn't even matter. Not many can afford a 360 CS, or even a GT3-RS. If you want a dedicated track car, then there are better and quicker options sub 50k than a CSL - but, if you want a car that can take 4 fatties, lap a race track at GT3 pace, give you a cracking A and B road drive, do 22mpg AND you can park it most places without anyone blinking AND 90% of people can drive fast in the dry or the wet, a CSL is very hard to beat.
One final point - I am 6ft3 and average build. I can fit in a 360CS, and a CSL with ease - but not a GT3 or GT3RS.
I still the GT3RS and am STILL tempted to have one! It isn't special enough over the other two though to warrant it.
gmmk1221 said:
Go to www.autoexpress.co.uk/?evo .
Arrrr, EVO, eh? Those impartial publishers of fine prose and lovers of all things Weissach...
Autocar;
0-100 CSL 10.9 GT3 9.3,
0-150 CSL 28.9 GT3 23.7
Top speed CSL 165 GT3 190
Braking 70-0
dry CSL 40.8m GT3 47.8m
wet CSL 63.3m GT3 60.6m
Vizzola track times
dry CSL 1.11.5 GT3 1.12.6
wet CSL 1.59.5 GT3 1.56.7
0-100-0 CSL 15.25 GT3 13.46
Brands indy circuit times
CSL 54.75 GT3RS 54.20
CSL is rated the more usable road car GT3 better fun on track.
CSL undoubtably fast but universaly critisised for having lifeless over servoed steering, paddle shift gearbox ( the software protects the clutch and tranny from cack handed drivers as perhaps the standard M3 item has been found wanting in track situations), advanced ABS and ABD, M-diff, traction control, cup tyres, front engine all make for a car easy to exploit and drive fast.
For me there's a "Matrix" conundrum - if a car allows fast lap times to be easy and makes the driver feel like a hero does it matter if the apparent abilities are an illusion created by the cars ECU?
( which doesn't mean everyone who drives a CSL is a low ability driver, rather the car can flatter those who are)
0-100 CSL 10.9 GT3 9.3,
0-150 CSL 28.9 GT3 23.7
Top speed CSL 165 GT3 190
Braking 70-0
dry CSL 40.8m GT3 47.8m
wet CSL 63.3m GT3 60.6m
Vizzola track times
dry CSL 1.11.5 GT3 1.12.6
wet CSL 1.59.5 GT3 1.56.7
0-100-0 CSL 15.25 GT3 13.46
Brands indy circuit times
CSL 54.75 GT3RS 54.20
CSL is rated the more usable road car GT3 better fun on track.
CSL undoubtably fast but universaly critisised for having lifeless over servoed steering, paddle shift gearbox ( the software protects the clutch and tranny from cack handed drivers as perhaps the standard M3 item has been found wanting in track situations), advanced ABS and ABD, M-diff, traction control, cup tyres, front engine all make for a car easy to exploit and drive fast.
For me there's a "Matrix" conundrum - if a car allows fast lap times to be easy and makes the driver feel like a hero does it matter if the apparent abilities are an illusion created by the cars ECU?
( which doesn't mean everyone who drives a CSL is a low ability driver, rather the car can flatter those who are)
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