GT3 vs CSL - few questions
Discussion
zanzibar said:
Ok
Bottem line is a M3 CSL is faster than a GT3 Mk1 / GT3 Mk2 & GT3 RS, is it faster than a 360 CS?
Z
Round the 'ring - yes
Sport Auto times (with same driver)
01/2004 Porsche Carrera GT (wet track, later 7:32.44) 7:40
08/2001 Tech Art Prosche GT street 7:43
07/2002 Pagani Zonda S 7:44
06/2001 Porsche 996 GT2 7:46
03/2004 Porsche 911 GT3 RS 7:47
02/1999 Porsche 911 GT3 Cup 7:49
06/2002 Lamborghini Murciélago 7:50
08/2003 BMW M3 CSL 7:50
06/2004 Mercedes SLR McLaren 7:52
12/2003 Lamborghini Gallardo 7:52
06/2003 Porsche 996 GT3 (facelift) 7:54
02/2004 Ferrari Challenge Stradale 7:56
06/2000 Porsche 996 911 turbo 7:56
05/1998 Lotec Porsche 911 Turbo 7:57
08/1999 Porsche 911 GT3 8:03
07/2000 Lamborghini Diablo GT 8:04
12/2002 Ferrari 575M Maranello 8:05
06/1998 Ferrari 550 Maranello 8:07
08/2002 Honda NSX R 8:09
10/1999 Ferrari 360 Modena 8:09
12/1997 Lamborghini Diablo SV 8:09
03/2001 Donkervoort D8 180R 8:10
10/1997 Chrysler Viper GTS 8:10
04/2002 Mercedes SL 55 AMG 8:12
05/1999 Lotus Esprit Sport 350 8:13
10/2004 Dodge Viper SRT/10 8:13
12/2004 BMW M5 E60 8:13
tony.t said:
CSL is rated the more usable road car GT3 better fun on track.
CSL undoubtably fast but universaly critisised for having lifeless over servoed steering, paddle shift gearbox ( the software protects the clutch and tranny from cack handed drivers as perhaps the standard M3 item has been found wanting in track situations), advanced ABS and ABD, M-diff, traction control, cup tyres, front engine all make for a car easy to exploit and drive fast.
For me there's a "Matrix" conundrum - if a car allows fast lap times to be easy and makes the driver feel like a hero does it matter if the apparent abilities are an illusion created by the cars ECU?
( which doesn't mean everyone who drives a CSL is a low ability driver, rather the car can flatter those who are)
A CSL isn't 'easy' to drive, it's no easier than a Caterham or any other balanced front engined/rear drive car. It has impeccable balance, perhaps a tad too much understeer but if you were a complete plod it would be very scary and you would crash. To drive a CSL quickly you need to switch off most of the electronic aids and drive it 'eau naturel' so to speak. The GT3 by comparison makes things a little harder than they need to be due to it's weight distribution. It's still very capable and arguably Porsche have worked more miracles with the GT3 than BMW have with the CSL, but don't look upon the CSL as being a cinch because it's not.
As has been mentioned earlier the CSL needs more negative camber and toe than the factory supplies it with, but that's pretty easy to fix. The steering them becomes more feelsome and it's already very linear and progressive. Nothing is quite as good as the 911 steering but that's due to it's lack of weight over the front axle. I didn't find the Boxster's steering as good as my GT3 and I would rate the CSL as better than the Boxster S, so that may give you an idea of what reference point we're coming from.
DoctorD said:
A CSL isn't 'easy' to drive.......
Compared to what?
I wouldn't critise a car for being well balanced. A front engined/ rear drive has to be the most easy to exploit arrangement. Caterhams are hardly difficult to drive until you get into enormous power/weight ratios. BMW M3/M5s are reknowned drift cars for good reason - they are easy to balance on throttle. I can't actually think of a better car to drift.
The paddle shift gear box at it's fastest level would be difficult to beat by any driver with a manual for speed. The software won't allow mistakes and blips on the downshift so pretty much eliminates transmission based difficulties.
MPSC are worth 2-3s per minute lap time compared with decent road tyres. It can't be denied they allow greater corner speed. It's easier to get fast lap times with them than without ( in the dry) and I can't say they make a car more difficult to drive.
CSL brakes are a bit frail but the ABS is excellant.
IT's got 360+ hp so won't exactly be slow down the straights and the M-diff is good at getting the power down out of corners.
Traction control is available to be used.
None of which make a CSL a bad car, and no doubt "a complete plod" would manage to crash, and a good driver would get much more out of one than a novice, but you can't deny that with relatively little track experience you could post some fast lap times and spend most of your time passing other cars.
tony.t said:
MPSC are worth 2-3s per minute lap time compared with decent road tyres. It can't be denied they allow greater corner speed. It's easier to get fast lap times with them than without ( in the dry) and I can't say they make a car more difficult to drive.
It's swings and roundabouts, I find the GT3 easier to place into a corner than the CSL which understeers slightly more going in. The GT3's more feelsome steering makes the art of steering 'easier' IMO. The GT3 if set up poorly can also understeer horendously on exiting a corner (due to the tremendous rear end grip), but generally I always found the limiting factor in driving a GT3 fast was settling the car on entry and setting it up for the best exit. The CSL on the other hand can be driven hard right up to 50 metres before the corner then hard on the brakes and turned in without any heroics. For example a well driven CSL will reach 140mph on the back straight at Donington before braking and turning into the chicane.
I found the MPSC tyres made relatively 'less' of a difference on the GT3 than the CSL. The GT3 already has plenty of rubber (some 20 mm wider than the CSL at the rear) and with the engine weight over the rear axle it doesn't struggle for traction. Neither does the CSL really, so the MPSC do not confer much advantage in that context. Where they do really help in a CSL (together with a camber of -2 to -3 degrees) is in eliminating understeer. Just fitting wider MPSC tyres with -3 degrees front camber can reduce lap times around Donington National by 2-3 seconds. And all that does is allow crisper corner entry, ability to hold the line through the apex and exit where you intend without having to trim the throttle. So the great myth about MPSCs is all to do with being able to hold the racing line and carry more speed through corners by securing 'front end' grip, it has nothing to do with traction.
However if BMW had built the CSL with the best set-up for front end grip, it would be pretty horrible on the cambered/crested roads we have in the UK. As I said, it's swings and roundabouts.
>> Edited by DoctorD on Wednesday 2nd March 09:51
All this stuff about quickest lap times and corner entry speed etc. etc. is all very well, but how much should the search for the perfect trackday car influence your decision overall ?
I got caught up in the trackday bravado talk, ended up with an RS and did a total of 3 track days in it!
It's nice to know you may drive a technically superior trackday car but you have to take into consideration just how many track days you are actually going to do and if your driving is really up to extracting the small differences being discussed here.
Presumably, at some stage if you're that good you would be better off towing a track only car to a circuit ?
So far, in my small amount of time in the CSL it feels a better behaved road car than the RS, it's considerably cheaper, doesn't draw too much attention and will be more than capable to handle the few track days I do.
I got caught up in the trackday bravado talk, ended up with an RS and did a total of 3 track days in it!
It's nice to know you may drive a technically superior trackday car but you have to take into consideration just how many track days you are actually going to do and if your driving is really up to extracting the small differences being discussed here.
Presumably, at some stage if you're that good you would be better off towing a track only car to a circuit ?
So far, in my small amount of time in the CSL it feels a better behaved road car than the RS, it's considerably cheaper, doesn't draw too much attention and will be more than capable to handle the few track days I do.
burzel said:
Ref castle combe times and m3csl at 1.17,996 cup cars do a 110 to 112.Gt3 rs on michelin cups should do around 1.13/1.14.
964 rs on mich cups does 1.15/1.16.
Would have expected the bmw to have gone quicker than 1.17.
Is the red bmw in the photos the simpson prepared car?
A 964 RS will not be that fast in a million years, and cup cars hardly count as they are stripped out racers on slicks. A GT3RS may just be as fast as a CSL round there, but remember the record for a Ferrari challenge cup car there is only 1.13...
beaver said:
All this stuff about quickest lap times and corner entry speed etc. etc. is all very well, but how much should the search for the perfect trackday car influence your decision overall ?
I got caught up in the trackday bravado talk, ended up with an RS and did a total of 3 track days in it!
It's nice to know you may drive a technically superior trackday car but you have to take into consideration just how many track days you are actually going to do and if your driving is really up to extracting the small differences being discussed here.
Presumably, at some stage if you're that good you would be better off towing a track only car to a circuit ?
So far, in my small amount of time in the CSL it feels a better behaved road car than the RS, it's considerably cheaper, doesn't draw too much attention and will be more than capable to handle the few track days I do.
Hear hear.
Horses for courses, enjoy either they are both great cars in their own ways.
Personally I prefer to park the GT3 in the paddock and use the SR3 on the track.
I hate to disappoint you, but those times are from time record sheets from my races in the pcgb Porsche open race in 03.The 964 rs was consistent 1.16/1.17.
The Ferrari challenge cars,I would have thought may have been quicker , at 1.13,do these cars use slicks.
I will see what the Porsche gb carrera cup cars were doing around there, I would have thought they would be around the 110/111 times.
And of course weather and new/old tyres will also make a big difference.
What are the laps times of spa in a csl ?As i see some one mentioned laps times of spa ,but no time.
The Ferrari challenge cars,I would have thought may have been quicker , at 1.13,do these cars use slicks.
I will see what the Porsche gb carrera cup cars were doing around there, I would have thought they would be around the 110/111 times.
And of course weather and new/old tyres will also make a big difference.
What are the laps times of spa in a csl ?As i see some one mentioned laps times of spa ,but no time.
I reckon that yellow car will beat the Ferrari challenge car especially with that savage driver behind the wheel, I know my 993 rs will.
And yes those 994 turbos are very quick, good time for a 944 eh!!
The 1.15 at combe for the 964 rs, was a mild tuned car with 295bhp.That was his qualifying time.
And yes those 994 turbos are very quick, good time for a 944 eh!!
The 1.15 at combe for the 964 rs, was a mild tuned car with 295bhp.That was his qualifying time.
993rsr said:
Phatgixer - what about the yellow Motec'd 964rs that got past you at the Goldtrack Spa event last year?
Surely according to your previous comments this would be impossible?
Not in the dry. I was on cups and the yellow (modded but well driven) RS was on system corsas with tread. In the dry it would have been different...
My times round Spa in the drying / damp on the new (longer) format was a best of 2.55. The slick shod 996GT3RS was able to do 2.49 on the samer day, but no other 911 came close to that.
As for the times at combe, I can believe the 964 RS is capable of the times stated if it was wearing slicks, but that is hardly a fair comparison with a road car on road rubber is it?
>> Edited by phatgixer on Thursday 3rd March 11:06
Phatgixer
i would love a ride some time, I am impressed by the csl, i think i would have one, if there were no such thing as a 911.
The 964 was on mich pilot cups as they are the control tyres for class 3.
My 993 cup has done 1.14 around combe on mich cups,also best time around spa is 2.50 on new mich cup tyres,on older tyres it was consistent 2.53.There may well be a 2.49 or 48 in it,but i need to be a bit braver first, to find it!
Not sure i agree about the 996 cup cars or gt3/rs as being difficult to drive. They have a higher grip threshold than earlier 911,so when they do step out you are generally carrying more speed than most, you then have to be on the ball to catch them! But set up right, they to can be a well balanced car, with stunning grip. Touch wood!!
i would love a ride some time, I am impressed by the csl, i think i would have one, if there were no such thing as a 911.
The 964 was on mich pilot cups as they are the control tyres for class 3.
My 993 cup has done 1.14 around combe on mich cups,also best time around spa is 2.50 on new mich cup tyres,on older tyres it was consistent 2.53.There may well be a 2.49 or 48 in it,but i need to be a bit braver first, to find it!
Not sure i agree about the 996 cup cars or gt3/rs as being difficult to drive. They have a higher grip threshold than earlier 911,so when they do step out you are generally carrying more speed than most, you then have to be on the ball to catch them! But set up right, they to can be a well balanced car, with stunning grip. Touch wood!!
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