Discussion
Cayman R ( manual of course ) looking great value. Green at JZM ( I believe ex Porsche press car ) amazing spec.
Will GT4 go same way value wise ? I have driven a GT4 but not an R , how much behind a GT4 are they ?
Values will harden for sure but will they go up on an R, last without electronic steering etc etc ?
All views very much appreciated.
Will GT4 go same way value wise ? I have driven a GT4 but not an R , how much behind a GT4 are they ?
Values will harden for sure but will they go up on an R, last without electronic steering etc etc ?
All views very much appreciated.
Lots of threads about the R on here, one long running one was updated only a couple of days ago. Worth a read. Also the GTS vs R thread.
Personally, I think the GT4 and GTS will be more desirable long term as the last of the NA engines. Losing them is more of an 'issue' than losing hydraulic steering. This is assuming the next GT4 is a 4-pot turbo of course. The GTS is now guaranteed as the last NA non-motorsport car as the new 991.2 911 GTS is turbo'd.
Personally, I think the GT4 and GTS will be more desirable long term as the last of the NA engines. Losing them is more of an 'issue' than losing hydraulic steering. This is assuming the next GT4 is a 4-pot turbo of course. The GTS is now guaranteed as the last NA non-motorsport car as the new 991.2 911 GTS is turbo'd.
Edited by Twinfan on Wednesday 8th February 22:28
I have driven a R and owned a 987 spyder for 4 years and now have gt4.
For me it's simple coupe the gt4 soft top 987 spyder!
IMHO and I know this will upset a few the CR although a very good car is no more than a caymanS plus and I see long term values just above cs the 987 spyder I see rising! The gt4 I think will remain at its current values for along time!
Now if the CR had come with a similar construction/ engine as the gt4 I would have bought one new and would still have!
For me it's simple coupe the gt4 soft top 987 spyder!
IMHO and I know this will upset a few the CR although a very good car is no more than a caymanS plus and I see long term values just above cs the 987 spyder I see rising! The gt4 I think will remain at its current values for along time!
Now if the CR had come with a similar construction/ engine as the gt4 I would have bought one new and would still have!
GT4P said:
I have driven a R and owned a 987 spyder for 4 years and now have gt4.
For me it's simple coupe the gt4 soft top 987 spyder!
IMHO and I know this will upset a few the CR although a very good car is no more than a caymanS plus and I see long term values just above cs the 987 spyder I see rising! The gt4 I think will remain at its current values for along time!
Now if the CR had come with a similar construction/ engine as the gt4 I would have bought one new and would still have!
I agree with this,I think the 987 Spyder is more special.For me it's simple coupe the gt4 soft top 987 spyder!
IMHO and I know this will upset a few the CR although a very good car is no more than a caymanS plus and I see long term values just above cs the 987 spyder I see rising! The gt4 I think will remain at its current values for along time!
Now if the CR had come with a similar construction/ engine as the gt4 I would have bought one new and would still have!
The debate will go on for 52 pages what is better and what is not, what has the best engine, steering etc etc.
They all have plus points and they all have minus points.
I do wonder what people post 1/2 the time about engines as the 981 GT4 is not a fun engine at all, it makes max BHP at 6.5k revs but goes to 7.7k revs which is pointless, although the plus point is changing at 6.5k you don't notice the long gearing ! I like the 3.4 dfi lump better as it happens, it's a sweet reving unit.
yes the GT4 has a 3.8 but who cares ! it's a detuned one ! the GT4 was crying out for the 3.8 GTS engine.
The steering on any 981 cannot match the 987. So that rules out the 981 GTS as any great car, nice cars but not great cars. But again if you only want one car, and it to be nicer than a R inside a GTS is a ok shout and better daily.
PASM still sucks imo, even the race cars had to ditch PASM for a set of KW shocks.
So when it comes to what's best you just have to own all 3 :-), I cannot say I like one more than another.
But here is a good one for you as I own all 3, If I had to only have ONE out of the 3 it would be the R, but owning all 3 the R would be the 1st one I would sell. (this is because the GT4 and 987.2 Spyder make the best combo)
But if you have 50k and only want one car the R does every thing to a good standard for a fun car which you can use.
Then you decide if it an R you want or a 981 GTS with the sports sus not PASM !
The R is smaller, it has amazing steering, does more Mpg, 1/2 the price to tax, smaller wheels/tyres. and is more fun at lower speeds than the GT4. So for road use the GT4 offers nothing over the R.
GT4 is very GT and is the track car of choice by a mile, so if you want to track a car more than say 3 times a year the GT4 is the right car and is a good daily, but a bit in your face with a big wing.
Have a great 52 page debate as imo they are very different cars, the R is the future 964 RS though.
The 987.2 is already one of Porsche best ever cars and feels undervalued when 996 GT3's go for £300k !
The GT4 well if they put the 991.1 GTS engine in it, then I want a new one, if they put a 4 pot in it then prices will go up and I will keep mine and put a lightweight flywheel in it and tune the engine back to >400 BHp.
If they bring out a 991.2 GT3 4.0 manual at £130k then I'll swap the GT4 and R for it and pair that with my 987.2 Spyder.
but you know my stance on the next GT3 :-)
Lets enjoy our cars, they are all great cars and I am sure owners of each car will stick up for what they own.
They all have plus points and they all have minus points.
I do wonder what people post 1/2 the time about engines as the 981 GT4 is not a fun engine at all, it makes max BHP at 6.5k revs but goes to 7.7k revs which is pointless, although the plus point is changing at 6.5k you don't notice the long gearing ! I like the 3.4 dfi lump better as it happens, it's a sweet reving unit.
yes the GT4 has a 3.8 but who cares ! it's a detuned one ! the GT4 was crying out for the 3.8 GTS engine.
The steering on any 981 cannot match the 987. So that rules out the 981 GTS as any great car, nice cars but not great cars. But again if you only want one car, and it to be nicer than a R inside a GTS is a ok shout and better daily.
PASM still sucks imo, even the race cars had to ditch PASM for a set of KW shocks.
So when it comes to what's best you just have to own all 3 :-), I cannot say I like one more than another.
But here is a good one for you as I own all 3, If I had to only have ONE out of the 3 it would be the R, but owning all 3 the R would be the 1st one I would sell. (this is because the GT4 and 987.2 Spyder make the best combo)
But if you have 50k and only want one car the R does every thing to a good standard for a fun car which you can use.
Then you decide if it an R you want or a 981 GTS with the sports sus not PASM !
The R is smaller, it has amazing steering, does more Mpg, 1/2 the price to tax, smaller wheels/tyres. and is more fun at lower speeds than the GT4. So for road use the GT4 offers nothing over the R.
GT4 is very GT and is the track car of choice by a mile, so if you want to track a car more than say 3 times a year the GT4 is the right car and is a good daily, but a bit in your face with a big wing.
Have a great 52 page debate as imo they are very different cars, the R is the future 964 RS though.
The 987.2 is already one of Porsche best ever cars and feels undervalued when 996 GT3's go for £300k !
The GT4 well if they put the 991.1 GTS engine in it, then I want a new one, if they put a 4 pot in it then prices will go up and I will keep mine and put a lightweight flywheel in it and tune the engine back to >400 BHp.
If they bring out a 991.2 GT3 4.0 manual at £130k then I'll swap the GT4 and R for it and pair that with my 987.2 Spyder.
but you know my stance on the next GT3 :-)
Lets enjoy our cars, they are all great cars and I am sure owners of each car will stick up for what they own.
Edited by Porsche911R on Thursday 9th February 09:45
I did wonder how long it would take for this post to bring you out of hiding MrD
I agree with a lot you say apart from the car for £50k or less
Yes the CR was a great new buy and yes it is a good car but if you cannot find a nice specd low miles car then save your money and buy a non pasm 987.2S
The gt4 although restricted is not very hard to unleash full power
Yes the best 2 car garage is the gt4/ 987 spyder which is the best 987 and the only one that will be a future classic 987
I agree with a lot you say apart from the car for £50k or less
Yes the CR was a great new buy and yes it is a good car but if you cannot find a nice specd low miles car then save your money and buy a non pasm 987.2S
The gt4 although restricted is not very hard to unleash full power
Yes the best 2 car garage is the gt4/ 987 spyder which is the best 987 and the only one that will be a future classic 987
Edited by GT4P on Thursday 9th February 09:21
Porsche911R said:
PASM still sucks imo, even the race cars had to ditch PASM for a set of KW shocks.
Regular PASM is designed for road use, I'm not surprised the race guys ditch it - they gut MUCH smoother surfaces to play on! On the road PASM is sublime and the ride quality with 20" wheels is nothing short of miraculous. As always, it's horses for courses.I agree with you about the detuned 3.8ltr though - not special enough for a GT car IMHO. If I owned a GT4 I'd consider doing what you're doing too if the next one's a flat four. A proper 3.8ltr X51 PowerKit motor in a GT4 would be superb.
I had the same dilemma recently when deciding on my first Cayman.
My view was that the GT4 was clearly going to be the better car overall, but I knew that if I bought a GT4 I would most likely never buy an R. And part of the joy of being an enthusiast is experiencing different cars and forming your own opinions on them.
My view was that the GT4 was clearly going to be the better car overall, but I knew that if I bought a GT4 I would most likely never buy an R. And part of the joy of being an enthusiast is experiencing different cars and forming your own opinions on them.
This slating malarkey for the ‘detuned’ engine of the GT4 is a load of rubbish and irritates me beyond belief every time I read a comment about it. The engine is absolutely sublime, sounds outstanding, fantastically free revving (superb for heal and toe) and loves to be redlined. Yes there could be a little extra little bit more at the top end if I was being super critical, but if it wasn’t for Porsche producing a slightly higher output version in the 911, then I don’t think it would have even registered with the magazines (and a lot of key board warriors)! After all, the GT4 engine produces more bhp/litre that the 996 GT3 and that is often halo’d as an all-time great!
With regards to the GT4 vs the R I would agree the GT4 is arguably better than the R in every aspect, but certainly not enough for it to be twice the price. I actually think the Cayman R is the better longer term proposition, particularly with the low production and we all know collectors love rare Porsches! If I still owned mine, I wouldn’t be selling anytime soon.
With regards to the GT4 vs the R I would agree the GT4 is arguably better than the R in every aspect, but certainly not enough for it to be twice the price. I actually think the Cayman R is the better longer term proposition, particularly with the low production and we all know collectors love rare Porsches! If I still owned mine, I wouldn’t be selling anytime soon.
n17ves said:
This slating malarkey for the ‘detuned’ engine of the GT4 is a load of rubbish and irritates me beyond belief every time I read a comment about it. The engine is absolutely sublime, sounds outstanding, fantastically free revving (superb for heal and toe) and loves to be redlined. Yes there could be a little extra little bit more at the top end if I was being super critical, but if it wasn’t for Porsche producing a slightly higher output version in the 911, then I don’t think it would have even registered with the magazines (and a lot of key board warriors)! After all, the GT4 engine produces more bhp/litre that the 996 GT3 and that is often halo’d as an all-time great!
It depends on what you're comparing against I suppose. the gt4's engine is ok but it's definitely not what I was expecting from a car bearing the 'GT' badge. the gt4 might produce more hp/litre than the 6gt3 but the power delivery is going to be pretty different. Demon (for once and despite some real pearls in that post especially the cayman R being the next 964RS 
) actually has a point when he says the engine feels flat after 6.5k as the power basically stays the same to the redline.back on topic, I'd say the gt4 is relatively the better car as it's considerably different from the 981 gts while I didn't think the cayman R felt very different to a standard 987 cayman s. Not obvious whether it's entirely worth paying a lot more for quite a lot of differentiation vs a decent amount more for a bit though.
I just don't like the Cayman R a lot. There I have said it.
Hmmm my 2p worth on the Cayman R
It is a great sports car with fine handling - but it just feels very underwhelming in my opinion.
Also, very subjective this, it's looks are a bit crap. Something the 981 generation have really fixed well.
Is it a great bargain at sub 50k? Nope. 35-40k tops with these I feel - and I know the market says otherwise - but that is my opinion.
Personally, I think you would be far better off buying a generic Cayman S and spending the money on modifications - it would be superior to the R for less money.
If you are thinking of stashing it away hoping it will be the next 964 RS - you have forgotten one thing...
IT IS NOT A 911. The market will always see it this way.
I am sorry if i have pissed all over some people's expectations of what is a fabulous little sports car.
Just enjoy its fine handling, precise steering and well balanced chassis.
The 987 Spider is the one to have here in my opinion
As for the GT4 - that car feels like the real deal - massive difference between the Cayman R and the GT4.
Is it worth twice the Cayman R. Nope. But the market says otherwise to me.
Hmmm my 2p worth on the Cayman R
It is a great sports car with fine handling - but it just feels very underwhelming in my opinion.
Also, very subjective this, it's looks are a bit crap. Something the 981 generation have really fixed well.
Is it a great bargain at sub 50k? Nope. 35-40k tops with these I feel - and I know the market says otherwise - but that is my opinion.
Personally, I think you would be far better off buying a generic Cayman S and spending the money on modifications - it would be superior to the R for less money.
If you are thinking of stashing it away hoping it will be the next 964 RS - you have forgotten one thing...
IT IS NOT A 911. The market will always see it this way.
I am sorry if i have pissed all over some people's expectations of what is a fabulous little sports car.
Just enjoy its fine handling, precise steering and well balanced chassis.
The 987 Spider is the one to have here in my opinion
As for the GT4 - that car feels like the real deal - massive difference between the Cayman R and the GT4.
Is it worth twice the Cayman R. Nope. But the market says otherwise to me.
Porsche911R said:
I do wonder what people post 1/2 the time about engines as the 981 GT4 is not a fun engine at all, it makes max BHP at 6.5k revs but goes to 7.7k revs which is pointless, although the plus point is changing at 6.5k you don't notice the long gearing !
These figures might be approx. (used an online gear ratio calculator), but…..Edited by Porsche911R on Thursday 9th February 09:45
Changing from 2nd gear at 6.5k will drop you to 4.7k in 3rd gear where the car is just making 285bhp. If you were to change at 7.8k (max power is at 7.4k), the car will drop to around 5.7k where the car will be making around 345bhp – 60bhp difference by short shifting!!
Changing gear at 6.5k would make the GT4 very SLOW! This car needs to be revved.
n17ves said:
Porsche911R said:
I do wonder what people post 1/2 the time about engines as the 981 GT4 is not a fun engine at all, it makes max BHP at 6.5k revs but goes to 7.7k revs which is pointless, although the plus point is changing at 6.5k you don't notice the long gearing !
These figures might be approx. (used an online gear ratio calculator), but…..Edited by Porsche911R on Thursday 9th February 09:45
Changing from 2nd gear at 6.5k will drop you to 4.7k in 3rd gear where the car is just making 285bhp. If you were to change at 7.8k (max power is at 7.4k), the car will drop to around 5.7k where the car will be making around 345bhp – 60bhp difference by short shifting!!
Changing gear at 6.5k would make the GT4 very SLOW! This car needs to be revved.
ras62 said:
n17ves said:
Porsche911R said:
I do wonder what people post 1/2 the time about engines as the 981 GT4 is not a fun engine at all, it makes max BHP at 6.5k revs but goes to 7.7k revs which is pointless, although the plus point is changing at 6.5k you don't notice the long gearing !
These figures might be approx. (used an online gear ratio calculator), but…..Edited by Porsche911R on Thursday 9th February 09:45
Changing from 2nd gear at 6.5k will drop you to 4.7k in 3rd gear where the car is just making 285bhp. If you were to change at 7.8k (max power is at 7.4k), the car will drop to around 5.7k where the car will be making around 345bhp – 60bhp difference by short shifting!!
Changing gear at 6.5k would make the GT4 very SLOW! This car needs to be revved.
Farerfan said:
Cayman R ( manual of course ) looking great value. Green at JZM ( I believe ex Porsche press car ) amazing spec.
Will GT4 go same way value wise ? I have driven a GT4 but not an R , how much behind a GT4 are they ?
Values will harden for sure but will they go up on an R, last without electronic steering etc etc ?
All views very much appreciated.
I really like the GT4 and have a lot of experience of it from knocking about with mates at trackdays who have one. A number of whom owned a 987 R or S prior to getting their new GT4s.Will GT4 go same way value wise ? I have driven a GT4 but not an R , how much behind a GT4 are they ?
Values will harden for sure but will they go up on an R, last without electronic steering etc etc ?
All views very much appreciated.
The problem I see with the GT4 is that it is now twice the price of an R to buy. Uses nearly twice as much fuel, costs twice as much to tax and is a lot more expensive when it comes to consumables (brakes and tyres). Hence why I won't be swapping my R for one anytime soon. However, if you can afford to pay twice for everything then the GT4 is the better car.
As regards the R going up in value, personally I can't see it but I only bought it to drive (see below) so future values don't interest me. I'm perfectly happy being the poor R owner when we get together on our track away days.
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