Extended warranty claim and N rated tyres
Discussion
Such behaviour would be in breach of contract and totally unreasonable, few companies behave in such a fashion and certainly not Porsche. Give us some evidence. Such accusations are paranoid. Read the contract, the terms and conditions are reasonable and applied fairly in my experience. Your arguments could be applied to any contract, i.e unreasonable refusal to observe it's terms and conditions, how do you reconcile your car insurance ?
It's the same as car insurance. If you put an induction kit on your car and don't tell them, then crash it, they can refuse to pay out. Terms are generally a little different where undisclosed mods are completely unallowed and will forfeit the insurance. Clearly the wording you have in your Porsche 'insurance warranty' isn't as black as white as it is for car insurance but it's the "grey area" we're discussing here.
Would Porsche try and wriggle out of a claim? Possibly, if the bill was for a new engine and gearbox or they become more hardline on claims to save money. Is it likely? Who knows until it a claim actually happens - it's just guesswork.
You have to assess the risk and make your own call. But seriously downplaying or ignoring that risk is a fools game IMHO.
Would Porsche try and wriggle out of a claim? Possibly, if the bill was for a new engine and gearbox or they become more hardline on claims to save money. Is it likely? Who knows until it a claim actually happens - it's just guesswork.
You have to assess the risk and make your own call. But seriously downplaying or ignoring that risk is a fools game IMHO.
We are not discussing grey areas, the wording is very simple, give me an example of Porsche refusing a claim because there are non Porsche parts on the car that are not associated with the fault. The same applies to servicing, do you only use OPC? it's not a requirement. Evidence please as I have experienced no problem with claims and have non Porsche parts on the car. Because you think it's 'risky' does not invalidate the warranty which is the point of this thread. Nothing would be more absurd than the mechanic walking out to the car and stating 'sorry mate, non 'N' tyres, your warranty is void, sorry about the mis fire' . Any examples ?
Twinfan said:
sidicks said:
What justification to Porsche have to provide?!
Indeed. They can refuse to pay out for a 'reason' and then it's up to you to disagree with the 'reason' and prove otherwise. They hold all the cards!If you fit on N rated tyres, then they MIGHT refuse your claim.
If they do, you have to sue them. At huge expense. And the risk of a bill for £50,000 if you lose.
Porsche have rooms FULL of lawyers.
All you have is a busted car, and a mountain to climb.
Baz99 said:
We are not discussing grey areas, the wording is very simple, give me an example of Porsche refusing a claim because there are non Porsche parts on the car that are not associated with the fault. The same applies to servicing, do you only use OPC? it's not a requirement. Evidence please as I have experienced no problem with claims and have non Porsche parts on the car. Because you think it's 'risky' does not invalidate the warranty which is the point of this thread. Nothing would be more absurd than the mechanic walking out to the car and stating 'sorry mate, non 'N' tyres, your warranty is void, sorry about the mis fire' . Any examples ?
Why is the onus on him to prove a negative? The point being made that if the policy terms say that you're not allowed to do this and you do it anyway - at best you are opening yourself up to potential time & money spent waiting for investigations, etc. At worst your claim might be invalidated.
Apocryphal experiences of getting warranty work done with modded parts/non N-rated tyres fitted don't prove anything beyond the fact that , for your specific car on that specific occasion, whatever that remedial work was Porsche AG didn't carry out an investigation on it, and just ok'd the OPC's warranty work request sight unseen. If/when something more substantial happened to it - e.g. a several hundred/thousand bill - you could find that the warranty work request gets flagged and they want photos of the car, an investigation done, etc. Porsche are pretty much guaranteed to do this on a sizeable claim.
I think the crux of the matter is that the policy T&Cs say what you can and can't do. You can choose to believe that doing things that explicitly breach those terms "won't be a big deal", because "it's only a small mod" or whatever - but, like a car insurance policy where e.g. aftermarket alloy wheels haven't been declared - all you've got is a policy is name only, a mistaken belief that you have coverage when - if tested - you would find you don't.
There is a big difference between the manufacturer warranty and any extended warranty, as said previously. There are things that Porsche can't unreasonably demand on the manufacturer warranty - including where you take the car, and the onus being on them to prove proximate cause with any modified part. WIth the extended warranty they need only say "you can't do this", with the term being reasonable, and that's all they need to point to in order to void cover.
Presumably then none of you guy's would buy the insurance, I mean, with this level of paranoia you might fear them refusing your claim because it's raining. In this example they would be clearly in breach of contract, so how about some examples of such behaviour. In the terms and conditions of the extended warranty they don't forbid anything, but they will cite any modification or non genuine part IF IT IS THE CAUSE OF THE PROBLEM.
'WIth the extended warranty they need only say "you can't do this", with the term being reasonable, and that's all they need to point to in order to void cover.' This is nonsense, the warranty is a separate legal entity, it is not a Porsche grace and favour deal. It is invoiced to you separately from the car to establish your payment for it, it is bound by contract law and companies such as Porsche do not wiil niily ignore it.
'WIth the extended warranty they need only say "you can't do this", with the term being reasonable, and that's all they need to point to in order to void cover.' This is nonsense, the warranty is a separate legal entity, it is not a Porsche grace and favour deal. It is invoiced to you separately from the car to establish your payment for it, it is bound by contract law and companies such as Porsche do not wiil niily ignore it.
Edited by Baz99 on Friday 26th May 10:59
Durzel said:
Baz99 said:
We are not discussing grey areas, the wording is very simple, give me an example of Porsche refusing a claim because there are non Porsche parts on the car that are not associated with the fault. The same applies to servicing, do you only use OPC? it's not a requirement. Evidence please as I have experienced no problem with claims and have non Porsche parts on the car. Because you think it's 'risky' does not invalidate the warranty which is the point of this thread. Nothing would be more absurd than the mechanic walking out to the car and stating 'sorry mate, non 'N' tyres, your warranty is void, sorry about the mis fire' . Any examples ?
Why is the onus on him to prove a negative? The point being made that if the policy terms say that you're not allowed to do this and you do it anyway - at best you are opening yourself up to potential time & money spent waiting for investigations, etc. At worst your claim might be invalidated.
Apocryphal experiences of getting warranty work done with modded parts/non N-rated tyres fitted don't prove anything beyond the fact that , for your specific car on that specific occasion, whatever that remedial work was Porsche AG didn't carry out an investigation on it, and just ok'd the OPC's warranty work request sight unseen. If/when something more substantial happened to it - e.g. a several hundred/thousand bill - you could find that the warranty work request gets flagged and they want photos of the car, an investigation done, etc. Porsche are pretty much guaranteed to do this on a sizeable claim.
I think the crux of the matter is that the policy T&Cs say what you can and can't do. You can choose to believe that doing things that explicitly breach those terms "won't be a big deal", because "it's only a small mod" or whatever - but, like a car insurance policy where e.g. aftermarket alloy wheels haven't been declared - all you've got is a policy is name only, a mistaken belief that you have coverage when - if tested - you would find you don't.
There is a big difference between the manufacturer warranty and any extended warranty, as said previously. There are things that Porsche can't unreasonably demand on the manufacturer warranty - including where you take the car, and the onus being on them to prove proximate cause with any modified part. WIth the extended warranty they need only say "you can't do this", with the term being reasonable, and that's all they need to point to in order to void cover.
I wouldn't advise trying to get Porsche to do something they don't want to. There lies the road to heartache and penury.
I do know of one specific case in my own experience where a claim was refused due to Paintshield being applied. But this was several years ago.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Well at least we acknowledge that the fitting of non genuine parts MAY invalidate the warranty. The policy does not state that non standard parts will cause it to be cancelled, only if those parts are deemed to have caused the problem, perfectly reasonable. Common sense would suggest being cautious with parts that may cause problems, but tyres, battery, cabin LED's !!? Baz99 said:
Presumably then none of you guy's would buy the insurance
No, I will not be buying it when the time comes. My CGTS has Zunsport grilles fitted to fill the (frankly stupidly large) holes in the front bumper and protect the rads/condensor. Porsche should have fitted mesh as they do for the GT3/GT4 but didn't so I've had to do it. The insurance warranty is basically a drivetrain warranty and in the event of an engine failure Porsche could claim reduced cooling due to the grilles. I'll keep the ~£900 a year as a slush fund instead.Either play by the rules, or don't play at all.
Twinfan said:
No, I will not be buying it when the time comes. My CGTS has Zunsport grilles fitted to fill the (frankly stupidly large) holes in the front bumper and protect the rads/condensor. Porsche should have fitted mesh as they do for the GT3/GT4 but didn't so I've had to do it. The insurance warranty is basically a drivetrain warranty and in the event of an engine failure Porsche could claim reduced cooling due to the grilles. I'll keep the ~£900 a year as a slush fund instead.
Either play by the rules, or don't play at all.
Agree, I have heard of a case where someone had to remove the grills to get the warranty renewed and then replaced them at the OPC!Either play by the rules, or don't play at all.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Well you can go round in circles forever on this. I know from experience that non standard parts that do not affect your claim and do not invalidate the warranty. That is the point of this discussion. Obviously one assesses the risk if carrying out modifications, I would only use non standard parts on low risk areas, in my case battery and brakes. Having been let down by a Moll I would never part with cash for one. I use a indy for my servicing, they fully understand the implications of the policy and will only use genuine parts and lubricants etc, but I don't consider using them a risk vis the warranty although using non OPC is quoted as a possible problem. As far as I can establish Porsche have only ever been difficult when modifications or parts can be held directly responsible.What utter and total drivel, I have first hand experience of making claims and fully understand the wording of and implications of a contract. You have supplied no evidence of the underhand attitude that you claim Porsche would adopt. At the time of my last claim Porsche were aware that a non standard battery was fitted to the car, they didn't inform me that the warranty was therefore void but carried out the work. Enough.
Baz99 said:
What utter and total drivel, I have first hand experience of making claims and fully understand the wording of and implications of a contract. You have supplied no evidence of the underhand attitude that you claim Porsche would adopt. At the time of my last claim Porsche were aware that a non standard battery was fitted to the car, they didn't inform me that the warranty was therefore void but carried out the work. Enough.
You seem oblivious to the difference between your (limited) personal experience and the potential for other claims by other people at other OPCs.You are welcome to take whatever view you think works best for you, but it's not a rational decision for the majority and not one that will be supported by most people.
Baz99 said:
Presumably then none of you guy's would buy the insurance, I mean, with this level of paranoia you might fear them refusing your claim because it's raining. In this example they would be clearly in breach of contract, so how about some examples of such behaviour. In the terms and conditions of the extended warranty they don't forbid anything, but they will cite any modification or non genuine part IF IT IS THE CAUSE OF THE PROBLEM.
'WIth the extended warranty they need only say "you can't do this", with the term being reasonable, and that's all they need to point to in order to void cover.' This is nonsense, the warranty is a separate legal entity, it is not a Porsche grace and favour deal. It is invoiced to you separately from the car to establish your payment for it, it is bound by contract law and companies such as Porsche do not wiil niily ignore it.
Now you're just talking delusional nonsense.'WIth the extended warranty they need only say "you can't do this", with the term being reasonable, and that's all they need to point to in order to void cover.' This is nonsense, the warranty is a separate legal entity, it is not a Porsche grace and favour deal. It is invoiced to you separately from the car to establish your payment for it, it is bound by contract law and companies such as Porsche do not wiil niily ignore it.
My car has the OPC warranty - I am happy to abide by the terms of the policy, so my car is standard and is serviced by my OPC.
It's not rocket science (or at least it shouldn't be!).
Look. I am sorry to pull (w)rank here, but as most on here know, I do have 20+ years of experience of litigation.
This is very simple.
1. Porsche can set whatever terms they like.
2. If you don't abide by them, Porsche MIGHT tell you to poke your claim for a new engine. Do you feel lucky, punk, well do ya?
3. If they do tell you poke your claim, you're looking at spending £30k - £50k on a court case as an absolute minimum. If you lose, then you have to pay their costs, so let's call it a round £100K at risk. Again, do you feel lucky?
If Porsche decide they're not paying, then you can do nothing, unless you are so wealthy that £100k does not matter to you.
Your choice, Baz. But don't kid yourself. They're not a charity, and we all know how much insurance companies LOVE paying out when they might not have to - so good luck. If your engine fails and Porsche says no, you're proper f****d. So just play it safe or not - your choice.
This is very simple.
1. Porsche can set whatever terms they like.
2. If you don't abide by them, Porsche MIGHT tell you to poke your claim for a new engine. Do you feel lucky, punk, well do ya?
3. If they do tell you poke your claim, you're looking at spending £30k - £50k on a court case as an absolute minimum. If you lose, then you have to pay their costs, so let's call it a round £100K at risk. Again, do you feel lucky?
If Porsche decide they're not paying, then you can do nothing, unless you are so wealthy that £100k does not matter to you.
Your choice, Baz. But don't kid yourself. They're not a charity, and we all know how much insurance companies LOVE paying out when they might not have to - so good luck. If your engine fails and Porsche says no, you're proper f****d. So just play it safe or not - your choice.
Edited by Soov330e on Friday 26th May 13:31
Soov330e said:
Look. I am sorry to pull (w)rank here, but as most on here know, I do have 20+ years of experience of litigation.
This is very simple.
1. Porsche can set whatever terms they like.
2. If you don't abide by them, Porsche MIGHT tell you to poke your claim for a new engine. Do you feel lucky, punk, well do ya?
3. If they do tell you poke your claim, you're looking at spending £30k - £50k on a court case as an absolute minimum. If you lose, then you have to pay their costs, so let's call it a round £100K at risk. Again, do you feel lucky?
If Porsche decide they're not paying, then you can do nothing, unless you are so wealthy that £100k does not matter to you.
Your choice, Baz. But don't kid yourself. They're not a charity, and we all know how much insurance companies LOVE paying out when they might not have to - so good luck. If your engine fails and Porsche says no, you're proper f****d. So just play it safe or not - your choice
From Baz
I would have thought that a lawyer would understand that Porsche are bound by the contract that you both have signed. The exclusions in the warranty are standard for virtually all contracts of this kind, namely that they will not accept liability if you are responsible for the faliure. So the assumption is that Porsche will try and blame your tyres for an engine failure and yet there apparently is no evidence that they have or will do so ? You know how important evidence is, lets have some.
This is very simple.
1. Porsche can set whatever terms they like.
2. If you don't abide by them, Porsche MIGHT tell you to poke your claim for a new engine. Do you feel lucky, punk, well do ya?
3. If they do tell you poke your claim, you're looking at spending £30k - £50k on a court case as an absolute minimum. If you lose, then you have to pay their costs, so let's call it a round £100K at risk. Again, do you feel lucky?
If Porsche decide they're not paying, then you can do nothing, unless you are so wealthy that £100k does not matter to you.
Your choice, Baz. But don't kid yourself. They're not a charity, and we all know how much insurance companies LOVE paying out when they might not have to - so good luck. If your engine fails and Porsche says no, you're proper f****d. So just play it safe or not - your choice
From Baz
I would have thought that a lawyer would understand that Porsche are bound by the contract that you both have signed. The exclusions in the warranty are standard for virtually all contracts of this kind, namely that they will not accept liability if you are responsible for the faliure. So the assumption is that Porsche will try and blame your tyres for an engine failure and yet there apparently is no evidence that they have or will do so ? You know how important evidence is, lets have some.
Edited by Soov330e on Friday 26th May 13:31[/footnote]
[footnote]Edited by Baz99 on Friday 26th May 14:06Baz99 said:
What utter and total drivel, I have first hand experience of making claims and fully understand the wording of and implications of a contract. You have supplied no evidence of the underhand attitude that you claim Porsche would adopt. At the time of my last claim Porsche were aware that a non standard battery was fitted to the car, they didn't inform me that the warranty was therefore void but carried out the work. Enough.
Your sample size is 1. Can you not grasp that your personal experience doesn't hold for everyone?No one has said that Porsche won't honour a claim, there are a multitude of reasons they might authorise warranty claim work - contrary to their own contract terms - including not spotting/being informed of modifications by the OPC, authorising the work sight unseen, a consideration of the relationship (ie how valuable a customer you are to them, how much they want to keep you sweet), etc. None of that alters the fact that breaching the contract gives them an out if it comes to it.
As regards the ridiculous strawman of no one taking the extended warranty in case it gets invalidated by driving it in the rain (lol), people take it out for peace of mind. Those people don't fit mods or non N-rated tyres because the sanctity of the warranty is more important to them than the mods. Undermining your own peace of mind strikes me as a pretty idiotic thing to do, particularly, often, for a nominal gain as said before.
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