Discussion
Fl0pp3r said:
Some differing experiences on the 997 cars then...can only assume this might be down to different maps being used??
Does anyone have any idea how many 'official' maps TPC have created for the v1 module (preferably for 997 application)? If not I might pick the TPC rep's brains over on rennlist and report back.
It is easy to remap a DSC box.Does anyone have any idea how many 'official' maps TPC have created for the v1 module (preferably for 997 application)? If not I might pick the TPC rep's brains over on rennlist and report back.
Question is which of the 700 or so parameters do you want to change and what values do you want them set to?
The issue I have found is it requires a very experienced driver with good feedback to decide on mapping development direction and values.
I spent two days with Chris of Centre Gravity on Silverstone GP circuit late last year to establish some form of baseline. Then I changed tyres, had CG change the suspension settings so a new baseline...
I will start playing with changes via the USB port and cable I have permanently attached to the DSC box in my car but it really does eat into track time, especially as I am neither a race driver nor engineer.
For me with much stiffer springs than stock, the benefits are ride compliance on road, and on track less roll on corner entry and being able to get on power earlier in exit.
I think the way to approach DSC is first to get the suspension hardware sorted, then have the car optimally set up, then add DSC. You might well decide the standard maps are just fine.
DSC's standard maps are not much different for different models and are the same for 991 and 981 non GT cars. I asked DSC about this and they said weight transference is similar across the platforms.
I think CG's Chris understands the time and effort required to develop custom maps and has correctly decided it is too much for his business model.
gtsralph said:
It is easy to remap a DSC box.
Question is which of the 700 or so parameters do you want to change and what values do you want them set to?
The issue I have found is it requires a very experienced driver with good feedback to decide on mapping development direction and values.
I spent two days with Chris of Centre Gravity on Silverstone GP circuit late last year to establish some form of baseline. Then I changed tyres, had CG change the suspension settings so a new baseline...
I will start playing with changes via the USB port and cable I have permanently attached to the DSC box in my car but it really does eat into track time, especially as I am neither a race driver nor engineer.
For me with much stiffer springs than stock, the benefits are ride compliance on road, and on track less roll on corner entry and being able to get on power earlier in exit.
I think the way to approach DSC is first to get the suspension hardware sorted, then have the car optimally set up, then add DSC. You might well decide the standard maps are just fine.
DSC's standard maps are not much different for different models and are the same for 991 and 981 non GT cars. I asked DSC about this and they said weight transference is similar across the platforms.
I think CG's Chris understands the time and effort required to develop custom maps and has correctly decided it is too much for his business model.
What hardware? At most you can change springs, with DSC you have 3 suspension alternatives, OEM, Billstein, and Tractive (these are the top dog and work extraordinarily good with DSC), but with Tractive you need DSC to get all the potential out. Question is which of the 700 or so parameters do you want to change and what values do you want them set to?
The issue I have found is it requires a very experienced driver with good feedback to decide on mapping development direction and values.
I spent two days with Chris of Centre Gravity on Silverstone GP circuit late last year to establish some form of baseline. Then I changed tyres, had CG change the suspension settings so a new baseline...
I will start playing with changes via the USB port and cable I have permanently attached to the DSC box in my car but it really does eat into track time, especially as I am neither a race driver nor engineer.
For me with much stiffer springs than stock, the benefits are ride compliance on road, and on track less roll on corner entry and being able to get on power earlier in exit.
I think the way to approach DSC is first to get the suspension hardware sorted, then have the car optimally set up, then add DSC. You might well decide the standard maps are just fine.
DSC's standard maps are not much different for different models and are the same for 991 and 981 non GT cars. I asked DSC about this and they said weight transference is similar across the platforms.
I think CG's Chris understands the time and effort required to develop custom maps and has correctly decided it is too much for his business model.
luigisayshello said:
What hardware? At most you can change springs, with DSC you have 3 suspension alternatives, OEM, Billstein, and Tractive (these are the top dog and work extraordinarily good with DSC), but with Tractive you need DSC to get all the potential out.
You just need to ensure the hardware is in good condition and adjustable as far as you want it to be, nothing more... then alignment, then DSC and any tuning of that. A really sophisticated last stage might be iterations of alignment and DSC but road cars and their drivers will never need to get to that level.
stef1808 said:
fitted my 997 gt2 with the DSC module - not worth it imho and should of just got coilovers
Quite a few 997 GT2 owners have said this. On a 997 turbo I think its the best mod out there on OEM shocks. Clearly no substitute for DDA tractive dampers, with DSC (or Bilstein, Ohlins, JRZ, Motons etc) but at $7000 vs $600 (I picked up a second hand latest firmware DSC unit) its best VFM mod out there. Transformed the way a 997.1 turbo handles.
Callughan said:
Matt at Fearnsport is able to map the DSC unit to your requirements. What is good if you are doing a track day he can adjust the bump and rebound for that specific track.
Pretty sure standard Bilstein dampers don't have separate bump and rebound. The map in the DSC just adjusts valving across the board. Pookster said:
Callughan said:
Matt at Fearnsport is able to map the DSC unit to your requirements. What is good if you are doing a track day he can adjust the bump and rebound for that specific track.
Well that's not possible with standard shocks, so no he can't
gtsralph said:
Pookster said:
Callughan said:
Matt at Fearnsport is able to map the DSC unit to your requirements. What is good if you are doing a track day he can adjust the bump and rebound for that specific track.
Well that's not possible with standard shocks, so no he can'tThe various tabs in the software are used to show different measurements and define how the shocks respond. The sensors are much quicker to respond and more granular than the damper valves. So one tabs for example says if the G load is 1g, what setting (voltage) should be sent tk each damper. And the same for 0, 0.1, 0.2g etc.
So on this velocity tab, I expect the compression and rebound columns refer to the shaft velocity, in comp and rebd accordingly. So if the car dives rapidly under braking then that would read as a high-speed compression. Dependent on what's in those cells, the DSC would then alter the voltage on each shock (presumably to stiffen the front). The key thing is that the table is laying out what's being measured and not what the damper is doing.
Each damper only has one pair of wires feeding it (0-2V iirc) from the DSC so can only receive one signal and therefore only adjust one thing: a single valve. So I don't think it's possible to alter rebound and compression separately through DSC.
Wonderul devices though, these DSC units.
Edited by arcamalpha on Saturday 10th June 21:10
gtsralph said:
This (unpopulated) page from the DSC set-up software might help...
So that's looking at body velocity I'd guess unless it's attempting to use the 4 wheel height sensors to derive the wheel velocities.But in any case the dampers switch globally, i.e. bump and rebound damping changes at the same time and they can't be made independant of each other no matter what the software suggests.
Having tuned these systems before I take most threads such as this with a pinch of salt as I've seen with my owns eyes an 'evaluator' describing how the car improved with each setting change only to subsequently find a connection error meant the settings hadn't changed at all.
On the DSC web site, there are links to several forum threads where DSC staff respond to questions. On a couple of posts, DSC explain the difference between PASM and DSC damper control as follows:
QUOTE
Sorry to sound like a broken record to those who have the DSC and have been enjoying it, but here it is again for those who are now discovering DSC and how it works differently from PASM. The factory PASM has two modes, the modes are labelled as Normal and Sport. If you think of the damping force in a range of 1% to 100%, with 1% being the softest and 100% being the stiffest, now think of Normal mode having a command range of 20-30%, Sport mode having a range of 70-80%. So PASM does do what the factory literature says it does but, with a small command range. And there's a big range between the two modes that's not used so in many driving situation on street and track, the two factory modes are either too soft or too stiff, or in some cases the driver wants less than 20% on rough roads, or wants more than 80% to keep the front from diving too much during high speed hard braking on a race track. This is evident on any race track that has straight line speed of over 120mph then braking down to 50mph. Having the full range of command relative to current load by using DSC makes the car more versatile and enjoyable in mixed driving conditions and ever changing conditions(and loads).
Over the past few years DSC has successfully improve the stability and versatility of many PASM-equipped Porsche cars as well as other major brands of American and Japanese sports cars. Due to the extremely positive user experiences there's even a big demand for retro-fitting DSC system in cars that didn't come from the factory with electronic suspension. As far as I am concerned, DSC is not a fad, it is an evolution of technology like carburetor to fuel injection, eyeglasses to contact lenses... We are in the beginning years of this evolution.
PASM compensates for lateral only but the command range doesn't make an appreciable difference in each mode. Also, in addition to commanding the four electronic shocks PASM commands the dynamic engine mounts as well. The factory PASM mapping of the dynamic engine mounts during a fast slalom situation the mounts go from stiff to soft to stiff as the lateral g-force sweeps across the g-table. This causes unwanted momentary rear weight transfer as the engine/transmission momentarily shifts within the body of the car. DSC commands the dynamic engine mounts to stay stiff in Sport mode to prevent this. And of course, the dynamic engine mount commands are programmable to the users personal preference with DSC.
Also..
For comparison, the two OEM PASM modes are far less active in the way that each mode has a command range of only around 10%. And each mode is active to only lateral g force. Whereas DSC reads and reacts to lateral, vertical, and longitudinal g force for superior damping over bumps and dips. And DSC uses the car's ride height sensors to read the amount of suspension movement (travel) and speed of the movement to determine sharpness of bumps and amount of compression from cornering. Damping force is added or subtracted based on these movements. These are all loads that DSC reads and actively adjusts for.
END QUOTE
QUOTE
Sorry to sound like a broken record to those who have the DSC and have been enjoying it, but here it is again for those who are now discovering DSC and how it works differently from PASM. The factory PASM has two modes, the modes are labelled as Normal and Sport. If you think of the damping force in a range of 1% to 100%, with 1% being the softest and 100% being the stiffest, now think of Normal mode having a command range of 20-30%, Sport mode having a range of 70-80%. So PASM does do what the factory literature says it does but, with a small command range. And there's a big range between the two modes that's not used so in many driving situation on street and track, the two factory modes are either too soft or too stiff, or in some cases the driver wants less than 20% on rough roads, or wants more than 80% to keep the front from diving too much during high speed hard braking on a race track. This is evident on any race track that has straight line speed of over 120mph then braking down to 50mph. Having the full range of command relative to current load by using DSC makes the car more versatile and enjoyable in mixed driving conditions and ever changing conditions(and loads).
Over the past few years DSC has successfully improve the stability and versatility of many PASM-equipped Porsche cars as well as other major brands of American and Japanese sports cars. Due to the extremely positive user experiences there's even a big demand for retro-fitting DSC system in cars that didn't come from the factory with electronic suspension. As far as I am concerned, DSC is not a fad, it is an evolution of technology like carburetor to fuel injection, eyeglasses to contact lenses... We are in the beginning years of this evolution.
PASM compensates for lateral only but the command range doesn't make an appreciable difference in each mode. Also, in addition to commanding the four electronic shocks PASM commands the dynamic engine mounts as well. The factory PASM mapping of the dynamic engine mounts during a fast slalom situation the mounts go from stiff to soft to stiff as the lateral g-force sweeps across the g-table. This causes unwanted momentary rear weight transfer as the engine/transmission momentarily shifts within the body of the car. DSC commands the dynamic engine mounts to stay stiff in Sport mode to prevent this. And of course, the dynamic engine mount commands are programmable to the users personal preference with DSC.
Also..
For comparison, the two OEM PASM modes are far less active in the way that each mode has a command range of only around 10%. And each mode is active to only lateral g force. Whereas DSC reads and reacts to lateral, vertical, and longitudinal g force for superior damping over bumps and dips. And DSC uses the car's ride height sensors to read the amount of suspension movement (travel) and speed of the movement to determine sharpness of bumps and amount of compression from cornering. Damping force is added or subtracted based on these movements. These are all loads that DSC reads and actively adjusts for.
END QUOTE
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