356 Outlaw

[993rsr]

fblm said:

MDL111 said:

yup that is the one I kept coming back to for months and thinking should I or shouldn't I ... congrats, am sure it is amazing to drive .

It's a properly brilliant car. Having sworn i'd never sell my faithful old cup car im now thinking its pointless keeping it, the Alzen slaughters it. Thanks for not buying it... I think it's a better car than my old 993GT2!

Edited by fblm on Thursday 1st August 14:34

Wash you mouth out !!

[anonymous-user]

993rsr said:

Wash you mouth out !!

JC? Long time no speak! No I mean it, the king is dead Maybe the price makes it faster, like a rental car.

[Talysurf]

Hi All,

I'm UK based and in the process of do this actual conversion. Well I should say WAS. After much research I have concluded that there is no way of getting this past the DVLA without ending up on a 'Q' plate and going through an Individual Vehicle Approval (IVA) test.
The problem is the chassis/monocoque is radically modified and this means you fall foul of the points system.
As much as a read the DVLA site I can't see any way round this legally and keeping the original number plate (or same year plate) or the plate of the donor 964. I don't want to be looking over my shoulder all the time and a 'Q' plate is a non starter as it will devalue the car to much.

I've already bought my 356 and 964, got a Dean Polopolus 'Polo' 911 4 cylinder engine kit on order. Teach me to jump the gun.

Need to seek advice if I am really correct in my assumption. I'll head over to the Kit car forum, I think they will have a lot of experience in this area.

Edited by Talysurf on Monday 5th August 13:31

[anonymous-user]

Talysurf said:

Hi All,

I'm UK based and in the process of do this actual conversion. Well I should say WAS. After much research I have concluded that there is no way of getting this past the DVLA without ending up on a 'Q' plate and going through an Individual Vehicle Approval (IVA) test.
The problem is the chassis/monocoque is radically modified and this means you fall foul of the points system.
As much as a read the DVLA site I can't see any way round this legally and keeping the original number plate (or same year plate) or the plate of the donor 964. I don't want to be looking over my shoulder all the time and a 'Q' plate is a non starter as it will devalue the car to much.

I've already bought my 356 and 964, got a Dean Polopolus 'Polo' 911 4 cylinder engine kit on order. Teach me to jump the gun.

Need to seek advice if I am really correct in my assumption. I'll head over to the Kit car forum, I think they will have a lot of experience in this area.

Thanks for your post. I hadn't considered it to be honest. I assumed you'd just register the increased capacity on the 356 v5.

[aeropilot]

Talysurf said:

Need to seek advice if I am really correct in my assumption.

I would think it very likely you are correct.

Once you lost all the points for the bodyshell/chassis, as well as the engine and gearbox, and likely the rear axle as well, you are well below the min 8 point mark to retain identity.

[Talysurf]

fblm said:

Thanks for your post. I hadn't considered it to be honest. I assumed you'd just register the increased capacity on the 356 v5.

Yep, it's a mine field for sure!

[Talysurf]

aeropilot said:

I would think it very likely you are correct.

Once you lost all the points for the bodyshell/chassis, as well as the engine and gearbox, and likely the rear axle as well, you are well below the min 8 point mark to retain identity.

I'm going to do more research, but accept I may have to rain back my plans. One question, do you know what they mean by Axles on the points system? I can't really get my head around what they actually mean!

Thanks

[aeropilot]

Talysurf said:

One question, do you know what they mean by Axles on the points system? I can't really get my head around what they actually mean!

It's a difficult one and open to lots of interpretation given the way car design has changed over the years, and even more so when you are dealing with a layout such as a rear engined Porsche!

To take a simple example, on a seperate chassis car that has a forged beam front axle and a live rear axle, replacing with a modern IRS at the front would loose you your front axle points, and say putting in a modern IRS in place of the live axle would loose you your rear axle points.
It gets a lot more complicated with monocoque construction and rear engine when technically there are no axles.....
In your case, I would assume that putting a 964 engine and drive train into a 356 would loose you all your points for engine, transmission and rear axle as far as DVLA/VOSA are concerned, as well as the points for the body.......and maybe the steering if changing that from the 356?
Doesn't leave you with many points left...!!

You really need to find a UK company that has done it or understands enough of the legislation in regard to a 356 to advise.

[Talysurf]

aeropilot said:

It's a difficult one and open to lots of interpretation given the way car design has changed over the years, and even more so when you are dealing with a layout such as a rear engined Porsche!

To take a simple example, on a seperate chassis car that has a forged beam front axle and a live rear axle, replacing with a modern IRS at the front would loose you your front axle points, and say putting in a modern IRS in place of the live axle would loose you your rear axle points.
It gets a lot more complicated with monocoque construction and rear engine when technically there are no axles.....
In your case, I would assume that putting a 964 engine and drive train into a 356 would loose you all your points for engine, transmission and rear axle as far as DVLA/VOSA are concerned, as well as the points for the body.......and maybe the steering if changing that from the 356?
Doesn't leave you with many points left...!!

You really need to find a UK company that has done it or understands enough of the legislation in regard to a 356 to advise.

Thanks, that makes sense. Clearly I've not enough points so accept that I can't do the built as I want. The hot rod boys have come up with a solution, that involves building an as New chassis and using the 964 suspension, gearbox and steering, then putting 356 body on the new chassis. That way I can assume an age related plate of the 964 as I am using two or more major part from the 964.
I will then need to pass a BIVA test.
Need to think long and hard about this now, and see what the implications there are with a BIVA test.

Not going to be easy for sure!!

Looking at the effect on the resale value, if I can keep the vast majority of the 356 body, how do you think an age related plate of the 964 go down?

Thanks

[aeropilot]

Talysurf said:

The hot rod boys have come up with a solution, that involves building an as New chassis and using the 964 suspension, gearbox and steering, then putting 356 body on the new chassis. That way I can assume an age related plate of the 964 as I am using two or more major part from the 964.
I will then need to pass a BIVA test.

Who do you mean by 'hot rod boys'?

And what do you mean by 'new chassis'?

A 964 or 356 doesn't have a seperate chassis?

Or are you talking about a 'kit car' from a kit car manufacturer that uses a bespoke new chassis that you fit 964 running gear into and has a 356 style repro fibreglass body?

[Talysurf]

aeropilot said:

Who do you mean by 'hot rod boys'?

And what do you mean by 'new chassis'?

A 964 or 356 doesn't have a seperate chassis?

Or are you talking about a 'kit car' from a kit car manufacturer that uses a bespoke new chassis that you fit 964 running gear into and has a 356 style repro fibreglass body?

By hot rod boys I mean the guys on the National Street Rod forums, they get involved in this type of problem when they build Street rods.

The 356 and 964 are monocoques like you say so don't have a chassis. I would build my own chassis, so think of it like a beetle chassis that takes the 964 running gear. Except it must be new. Then I would use the original steel 356 body less the floor so to speak and bolt to the new chassis.
In effect it's like the original idea of merging the two chassis but missing out the merging bit and replacing that area with new metal/composites or whatever material I decided to make the chassis in.
This is the only legal way to do the conversion and does leverage kit car rules.

Hope I'm making sense!!

Thanks

[aeropilot]

Talysurf said:

aeropilot said:

Who do you mean by 'hot rod boys'?

And what do you mean by 'new chassis'?

A 964 or 356 doesn't have a seperate chassis?

Or are you talking about a 'kit car' from a kit car manufacturer that uses a bespoke new chassis that you fit 964 running gear into and has a 356 style repro fibreglass body?

By hot rod boys I mean the guys on the National Street Rod forums, they get involved in this type of problem when they build Street rods.

The 356 and 964 are monocoques like you say so don't have a chassis. I would build my own chassis, so think of it like a beetle chassis that takes the 964 running gear. Except it must be new. Then I would use the original steel 356 body less the floor so to speak and bolt to the new chassis.
In effect it's like the original idea of merging the two chassis but missing out the merging bit and replacing that area with new metal/composites or whatever material I decided to make the chassis in.
This is the only legal way to do the conversion and does leverage kit car rules.

Hope I'm making sense!!

Thanks

Build it to BIVA regs from the start, is the only way.

Hot rods are my background, so you will likely have it a bit more easy that some of the street rod/hot rod guys that are using US vehicles as a basis, as often the sticking point with passing BIVA is the need to use EU marked windscreen glass, which is a real problem on curved glass 50's and 60's US cars where a custom one off made EU marked screen can be a deal breaker to building to BIVA.
I'm guessing that EU marked screens for a 356 are more readily available which is one hurdle you won't have to worry about (other than the likely wallet draining for buying one!)

[Talysurf]

aeropilot said:

Build it to BIVA regs from the start, is the only way.

Hot rods are my background, so you will likely have it a bit more easy that some of the street rod/hot rod guys that are using US vehicles as a basis, as often the sticking point with passing BIVA is the need to use EU marked windscreen glass, which is a real problem on curved glass 50's and 60's US cars where a custom one off made EU marked screen can be a deal breaker to building to BIVA.
I'm guessing that EU marked screens for a 356 are more readily available which is one hurdle you won't have to worry about (other than the likely wallet draining for buying one!)

Agreed BIVA all the way. Pilkington do screens for the 356, just need to check spec, but I like to think its EU marked. Rest assured my wallet is bracing itself on all fronts!
Still evaluating the implications of the whole project including BIVA. Decision far from made, but at least I have a path.