Porsche 'conning' uk GT4 owners out of their cars 4 profit?!
Discussion
Desert Dragon said:
It appears you cannot read and may well be a snow flake not a human being.
Snow flakes may not understand this but your ethnic reference is in no way similar to my comment about the fellow being over weight. I did not call him "fat" or say he "shouldn't be on TV". If I wanted to say this I would have written this.
Your ethnic reference by contrast is yes I agree racist, vulgar, offensive and not necessary. I'l stick with being a vulgar human being in a world of fragile snow flakes thanks.
Next time you hold a grudge about a photo you think I took whilst driving 54mph just ask and I'll let you know my passenger took it - in any event it's a totally different subject even if I did take the photo and has no bearing whatsoever on what we are debating...
And yes I have an issue with over weight people. They are costing our welfare system billions. I was never rude or derogatory about over weight people and its fact people in the media generally really take car of themselves. You on the other hand came up with examples as cunning and clever as Baldric that were as racist as a certain Republican President and you have the audacity to judge me as a human being from your keyboard after reading a few sentences on Pistonheads about my views on over weight you tubers lol - a little melodramatic and off the mark my little white snow flake sitting on your very high horse
Did you ever hear the one about the Pakistani, the Muslim and the over weight person?......
Keep smiling Mr Smiley
why is calling a group of Pakistani's "Pakistani's" racist ? FFS this PC world of crazy madness and people pussy foot about.Snow flakes may not understand this but your ethnic reference is in no way similar to my comment about the fellow being over weight. I did not call him "fat" or say he "shouldn't be on TV". If I wanted to say this I would have written this.
Your ethnic reference by contrast is yes I agree racist, vulgar, offensive and not necessary. I'l stick with being a vulgar human being in a world of fragile snow flakes thanks.
Next time you hold a grudge about a photo you think I took whilst driving 54mph just ask and I'll let you know my passenger took it - in any event it's a totally different subject even if I did take the photo and has no bearing whatsoever on what we are debating...
And yes I have an issue with over weight people. They are costing our welfare system billions. I was never rude or derogatory about over weight people and its fact people in the media generally really take car of themselves. You on the other hand came up with examples as cunning and clever as Baldric that were as racist as a certain Republican President and you have the audacity to judge me as a human being from your keyboard after reading a few sentences on Pistonheads about my views on over weight you tubers lol - a little melodramatic and off the mark my little white snow flake sitting on your very high horse
Did you ever hear the one about the Pakistani, the Muslim and the over weight person?......
Keep smiling Mr Smiley
look up the word racist :-) (the word is over used in the UK) telling some one they need to loose weight is rude and to be a high flyer you need to be thin is crazy ! when some one has only stated an opinion on a GT4 !
Porsche911R said:
why is calling a group of Pakistani's "Pakistani's" racist ? FFS this PC world of crazy madness and people pussy foot about.
look up the word racist :-) (the word is over used in the UK) telling some one they need to loose weight is rude and to be a high flyer you need to be thin is crazy ! when some one has only stated an opinion on a GT4 !
Absolutely, god knows!look up the word racist :-) (the word is over used in the UK) telling some one they need to loose weight is rude and to be a high flyer you need to be thin is crazy ! when some one has only stated an opinion on a GT4 !
Robbo66 said:
Not really IMV. Many cannot be classified as 'cars'any longer.
So you bought an R for £150k, for example, now worth circa £350k to trade, and know if you put 5000 miles on it or would cost you best part of £75k+ of either lost profit or loss if you bought a overs. Same amount either way.
Then you would also have a less desirable model for the learned 'collector' too.
That hurts, however wealthy you are, and becomes a 'commercial decision' unfortunately.
So the 'just drive it' mantra is normally spouted by those that don't own a mileage sensitive car or live in the land of nod. Those who had the nouse to be able to afford such an outlay in the first place, no doubt realise this.
Sad I know, but these are commodities now. Ironically, where the real investment lies, pre 73, mileage is an irrelevance to value.
I guess it is a question of perception. Your example of the R bought for £150k now "worth £350K" but "devalued £75k by being driven 5,000 miles" to me it would be a car I bought for £150K, drove for as long as I enjoyed doing so and if I sold it for £275K with 30,000 miles on it I would consider that a nice result, firstly a fun car and secondly a profit. You'd see it as a "loss" of £75K, I wouldn'tSo you bought an R for £150k, for example, now worth circa £350k to trade, and know if you put 5000 miles on it or would cost you best part of £75k+ of either lost profit or loss if you bought a overs. Same amount either way.
Then you would also have a less desirable model for the learned 'collector' too.
That hurts, however wealthy you are, and becomes a 'commercial decision' unfortunately.
So the 'just drive it' mantra is normally spouted by those that don't own a mileage sensitive car or live in the land of nod. Those who had the nouse to be able to afford such an outlay in the first place, no doubt realise this.
Sad I know, but these are commodities now. Ironically, where the real investment lies, pre 73, mileage is an irrelevance to value.
I buy my cars for the purpose they were made, namely to drive; both the GT4 & the RS were on the track before they had 2,000 miles on the clock and the GT2 was my wife's daily driver for the two years we had it. Most of the guys I know with GT3/ GT4 & even one with a GT2 RS drive their cars regularly on road and track like they were intended and IMO like they should be. Yes when we sell them we will not achieve record breaking prices, but life is short and you can't take your profit with you so enjoy your toys whilst you have them.
As for your comment "Those who had the nouse to be able to afford such an outlay in the first place, no doubt realise this." i'm not sure "nouse" and "ability to afford" always go together
Porsche911R said:
why is calling a group of Pakistani's "Pakistani's" racist ? FFS this PC world of crazy madness and people pussy foot about.
look up the word racist :-) (the word is over used in the UK) telling some one they need to loose weight is rude and to be a high flyer you need to be thin is crazy ! when some one has only stated an opinion on a GT4 !
Ah the Demon.look up the word racist :-) (the word is over used in the UK) telling some one they need to loose weight is rude and to be a high flyer you need to be thin is crazy ! when some one has only stated an opinion on a GT4 !
Look at his first post FFS. He implies my issue with someone who is significantly over weight presenting media content is similar to someone having an issue being overtaken by a Pakistani. Nothing PC about it the second example is racist. Even the poster admits it's racist and he's using it as an example to show up my prejudice against over weight youtubers.
Any way Demon it seems a few of you know the youtuber. Apologies in advance if I caused offence. It's still a crap YouTube clip full of nonsense whichever way you look at it. The fellow is a Lotus fanboy spouting nonsense about a particularly nasty Porsche dealer invagueling his poor innocent chum out of his GT4. There there now....
Desert Dragon said:
Ah the Demon.
Look at his first post FFS. He implies my issue with someone who is significantly over weight presenting media content is similar to someone having an issue being overtaken by a Pakistani. Nothing PC about it the second example is racist. Even the poster admits it's racist and he's using it as an example to show up my prejudice against over weight youtubers.
I still don't get why calling a Pakistani "Pakistani" is racist ? People called me English so that must be racist ! there is nothing racist about that comment !Look at his first post FFS. He implies my issue with someone who is significantly over weight presenting media content is similar to someone having an issue being overtaken by a Pakistani. Nothing PC about it the second example is racist. Even the poster admits it's racist and he's using it as an example to show up my prejudice against over weight youtubers.
As I said the racist card is over played In the UK.
People can call me a limy, Pommie what every their slang is I am proud to be a Pommie.
UK is a pussy reverse PC county.
Porsche911R said:
Desert Dragon said:
Ah the Demon.
Look at his first post FFS. He implies my issue with someone who is significantly over weight presenting media content is similar to someone having an issue being overtaken by a Pakistani. Nothing PC about it the second example is racist. Even the poster admits it's racist and he's using it as an example to show up my prejudice against over weight youtubers.
I still don't get why calling a Pakistani "Pakistani" is racist ? People called me English so that must be racist ! there is nothing racist about that comment !Look at his first post FFS. He implies my issue with someone who is significantly over weight presenting media content is similar to someone having an issue being overtaken by a Pakistani. Nothing PC about it the second example is racist. Even the poster admits it's racist and he's using it as an example to show up my prejudice against over weight youtubers.
As I said the racist card is over played In the UK.
People can call me a limy, Pommie what every their slang is I am proud to be a Pommie.
UK is a pussy reverse PC county.
If the basis of your prejudice is that the Pakistani is driving a nicer car than you then you're probably not racist just a green eyed monster like many of the members on various car forums.
Just as the appearance of the Muslim delivery man is irrelevant in that context.
Hopefully that clears it up for you me old mucker Demon but if you want anymore lessons on acceptable and non acceptable conduct when talking about someone's ethnic back ground or if anyone has an issue pls PM me.
The title of the YouTube vid Porsche is conning their customers is misleading at best and sensationalist at worst. That's my main point. Okay?
NAS90 said:
I guess it is a question of perception. Your example of the R bought for £150k now "worth £350K" but "devalued £75k by being driven 5,000 miles" to me it would be a car I bought for £150K, drove for as long as I enjoyed doing so and if I sold it for £275K with 30,000 miles on it I would consider that a nice result, firstly a fun car and secondly a profit. You'd see it as a "loss" of £75K, I wouldn't
I buy my cars for the purpose they were made, namely to drive; both the GT4 & the RS were on the track before they had 2,000 miles on the clock and the GT2 was my wife's daily driver for the two years we had it. Most of the guys I know with GT3/ GT4 & even one with a GT2 RS drive their cars regularly on road and track like they were intended and IMO like they should be. Yes when we sell them we will not achieve record breaking prices, but life is short and you can't take your profit with you so enjoy your toys whilst you have them.
As for your comment "Those who had the nouse to be able to afford such an outlay in the first place, no doubt realise this." i'm not sure "nouse" and "ability to afford" always go together
not everyone is as rich as you though and £75k depreciation for 5,000 miles is quite a large amount for mostI buy my cars for the purpose they were made, namely to drive; both the GT4 & the RS were on the track before they had 2,000 miles on the clock and the GT2 was my wife's daily driver for the two years we had it. Most of the guys I know with GT3/ GT4 & even one with a GT2 RS drive their cars regularly on road and track like they were intended and IMO like they should be. Yes when we sell them we will not achieve record breaking prices, but life is short and you can't take your profit with you so enjoy your toys whilst you have them.
As for your comment "Those who had the nouse to be able to afford such an outlay in the first place, no doubt realise this." i'm not sure "nouse" and "ability to afford" always go together
for example if you were to drive from Manchester to London and back it'd cost you £7,000 in depreciation - it would literally be cheaper to fly by a chartered helicopter
ORD said:
If you can't afford to drive it, don't buy it (unless you are doing so as an investment). None of this is remotely complex or even arguably unfair.
what still exists is people who could afford to buy it (and have bought it) but don't particularly want to throw away £75k for a few journeys...a good example of this is the 458 aperta, hardly anyone actually drives them but most if not all of the owners are multi millionaires.
WCZ said:
what still exists is people who could afford to buy it (and have bought it) but don't particularly want to throw away £75k for a few journeys...
a good example of this is the 458 aperta, hardly anyone actually drives them but most if not all of the owners are multi millionaires.
Then they can't afford to drive it! If so, they shouldn't have bought it. I really don't see the problem. a good example of this is the 458 aperta, hardly anyone actually drives them but most if not all of the owners are multi millionaires.
Hard to feel sorry for people who buy cars as investments than decide not to drive them for money reasons.
WCZ said:
ORD said:
If you can't afford to drive it, don't buy it (unless you are doing so as an investment). None of this is remotely complex or even arguably unfair.
what still exists is people who could afford to buy it (and have bought it) but don't particularly want to throw away £75k for a few journeys...a good example of this is the 458 aperta, hardly anyone actually drives them but most if not all of the owners are multi millionaires.
Glass half full or empty, investor or car nut...it's costing you to put miles on.
Unless you inherit like some of the instagram / Harrods narcissist, then no doubt you are bright enough to have secured the wealth to buy the Aperta.
What you won't seem them doing is driving it to Grimsby and back on a motorway schlep, as they know 1000 miles would cost them £50k. It gets to a point, that it would be far better to actually hire the Aperta to do the run, rather than blow £50 a mile using your own.
I've a friend with an R, with several other exotica, and he knows he will blow serious amounts if he goes over 2000 miles, as I eluded to before.
Edited by Robbo66 on Friday 28th July 13:47
If you make reference to someones race when it is not needed, its racist. If you call someone fat and shouldnt be on youtube its t
ttish. If you want to appear big but not clever enough to see the argument against you, you try to shut it down by calling someone a snowflake (the tsunami upgrade to troll).
ttish. If you want to appear big but not clever enough to see the argument against you, you try to shut it down by calling someone a snowflake (the tsunami upgrade to troll).Robbo66 said:
This.
Glass half full or empty, investor or car nut...it's costing you to put miles on.
Unless you inherit like some of the instagram / Harrods narcissist, then no doubt you are bright enough to have secured the wealth to buy the Aperta.
What you won't seem them doing is driving it to Grimsby and back on a motorway schlep, as they know 1000 miles would cost them £50k. It gets to a point, that it would be far better to actually hire the Aperta to do the run, rather than blow £50 a mile using your own.
I've a friend with an R, with several other exotica, and he knows he will blow serious amounts if he goes over 2000 miles, as I eluded to before.
Whilst that's all correct you could equally make the argument that if you don't intend to sell it, and when you do you still get more than you paid, you're in a net positive position. Glass half full or empty, investor or car nut...it's costing you to put miles on.
Unless you inherit like some of the instagram / Harrods narcissist, then no doubt you are bright enough to have secured the wealth to buy the Aperta.
What you won't seem them doing is driving it to Grimsby and back on a motorway schlep, as they know 1000 miles would cost them £50k. It gets to a point, that it would be far better to actually hire the Aperta to do the run, rather than blow £50 a mile using your own.
I've a friend with an R, with several other exotica, and he knows he will blow serious amounts if he goes over 2000 miles, as I eluded to before.
Edited by Robbo66 on Friday 28th July 13:47
I realise that's it's not as simple as that, and there are plenty of people who bought 458 Speciales, who weren't necessarily uber rich, who upon seeing potential returns of £100k+ more than they paid simply took the view that it was far big a return to ignore.
Sadly this is the way of cars like this now. You're either so rich that the "lost profit" is inconsequential to you, or you switch off from all of it and just drive it. Being somewhere in the middle seems like a recipe for stress, which really should never be the case for something you're supposed to enjoy.
I couldn't watch all of it but it looks as if everyone else has summed up my thoughts anyway.
His mate sounds stupid. GT4s were just a short-term price bubble. People who didn't get on the list paying more so that they still got one. Once that fuss died down, the prices were going to reduce.
Sounds like actually quite helpful advice from the OPC tbf if he wanted to get out without losing his shirt. Perhaps he also wears those cheap Lonsdales so it was obvious he was stretching himself?! :-p
Clearly the dealer is there to make a margin - I've had to have a similar conversation about the MIL's car this weekend as MINI have told the BIL that it's only apparently worth £1900. No, that's the PX price, it's actually worth £4k+.
This chap doesn't have to lose weight if he doesn't want to - I'm no slim bean - but at least tuck his shirt in so I don't have to suffer glimpses of his stomach!
His mate sounds stupid. GT4s were just a short-term price bubble. People who didn't get on the list paying more so that they still got one. Once that fuss died down, the prices were going to reduce.
Sounds like actually quite helpful advice from the OPC tbf if he wanted to get out without losing his shirt. Perhaps he also wears those cheap Lonsdales so it was obvious he was stretching himself?! :-p
Clearly the dealer is there to make a margin - I've had to have a similar conversation about the MIL's car this weekend as MINI have told the BIL that it's only apparently worth £1900. No, that's the PX price, it's actually worth £4k+.
This chap doesn't have to lose weight if he doesn't want to - I'm no slim bean - but at least tuck his shirt in so I don't have to suffer glimpses of his stomach!
Durzel said:
Whilst that's all correct you could equally make the argument that if you don't intend to sell it, and when you do you still get more than you paid, you're in a net positive position.
.
I think this argument only works if you were guaranteed the same money back for the car as you paid, and no more. For the majority, the net positive position remains the point at the highest value, everything below that could be perceived as a 'loss' as you could have cashed out. .
Sad state of affairs, but again, these are now considered by many as tax free investments.
George Smiley said:
If you make reference to someones race when it is not needed, its racist. If you call someone fat and shouldnt be on youtube its tttish. If you want to appear big but not clever enough to see the argument against you, you try to shut it down by calling someone a snowflake (the tsunami upgrade to troll).
Or maybe I see your analogy munchkins and simply think its a very very poor example as I explained earlier? ttish. If you want to appear big but not clever enough to see the argument against you, you try to shut it down by calling someone a snowflake (the tsunami upgrade to troll).There's probably a bit more to your poor analogy than you're letting on - keep smiling Mr Smiley
Robbo66 said:
nudgerwilliams said:
Spot on
Not really IMV. Many cannot be classified as 'cars'any longer.So you bought an R for £150k, for example, now worth circa £350k to trade, and know if you put 5000 miles on it or would cost you best part of £75k+ of either lost profit or loss if you bought a overs. Same amount either way.
Then you would also have a less desirable model for the learned 'collector' too.
That hurts, however wealthy you are, and becomes a 'commercial decision' unfortunately.
So the 'just drive it' mantra is normally spouted by those that don't own a mileage sensitive car or live in the land of nod. Those who had the nouse to be able to afford such an outlay in the first place, no doubt realise this.
Sad I know, but these are commodities now. Ironically, where the real investment lies, pre 73, mileage is an irrelevance to value.
As per the R, if I had one and payed list then I wouldn't hesitate to drive it on every pertinent occasion.
The mileage accrued probably would blunt it's high end valuation, although not in every case, the 7,000 mile 918 sold recently at auction confirming same.
Barring an economic crash, the R will always be worth more than list.
I have been fortunate to own/owned a couple of recent ltd edition Ferrari.
One accrued almost 5000 miles in 15 months and still achieved twice list when sold.
The other is currently on 2000 miles after 8 months and more will be added, it's value may be affected but it will still be "good news" come sale time.
nutbehinddawheel said:
Robbo66 said:
nudgerwilliams said:
Spot on
Not really IMV. Many cannot be classified as 'cars'any longer.So you bought an R for £150k, for example, now worth circa £350k to trade, and know if you put 5000 miles on it or would cost you best part of £75k+ of either lost profit or loss if you bought a overs. Same amount either way.
Then you would also have a less desirable model for the learned 'collector' too.
That hurts, however wealthy you are, and becomes a 'commercial decision' unfortunately.
So the 'just drive it' mantra is normally spouted by those that don't own a mileage sensitive car or live in the land of nod. Those who had the nouse to be able to afford such an outlay in the first place, no doubt realise this.
Sad I know, but these are commodities now. Ironically, where the real investment lies, pre 73, mileage is an irrelevance to value.
As per the R, if I had one and payed list then I wouldn't hesitate to drive it on every pertinent occasion.
The mileage accrued probably would blunt it's high end valuation, although not in every case, the 7,000 mile 918 sold recently at auction confirming same.
Barring an economic crash, the R will always be worth more than list.
I have been fortunate to own/owned a couple of recent ltd edition Ferrari.
One accrued almost 5000 miles in 15 months and still achieved twice list when sold.
The other is currently on 2000 miles after 8 months and more will be added, it's value may be affected but it will still be "good news" come sale time.
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