What happened to the bubble?

[g7jhp]

Lots of people holding onto their cars.

There maybe a hit when Brexit comes, but the bigger hit will happen with the general switch from petrol/diesel to hybrid / electric and continued automation of roads reducing people's ability to enjoy their cars.

You don't want to get caught holding a car bought at a higher value when it turns.

As usual cash will be king.

[isaldiri]

CarreraLightweightRacing said:

Not quite; I went in 50:50 with somebody and they pulled out before delivery meaning I was faced with a rather large invoice to settle. In the end the easiest way out was to pass on the car to a friend, so I ended up about 2k down and they were very happy.
I was originally offered the allocation by my OPC. At the time (about 18months before delivery) what idiot would have turned down the opportunity? It was never really something I set-out to do, more a case of an opportunity presenting itself. I don't think anyone else here would have stepped away from it if they were being 100% honest (at the time they were making around 100k overs). I'm just glad to have walked away from it all relatively unscathed.

Exactly how is it 'not quite' that you tried to flip the RS apart from the fact it didn't work out in your favour? Whether or not most wouldn't have said no to an allocation, it doesn't make it any less of a flip that you took an allocation of a car you had no intention of doing anything else than selling immediately for profit and therefore depriving someone of getting a car that he might have held on to be used for it's intended purpose ie driving. Enthusiast or not, I'd prefer to call a spade a spade.

[SRT Hellcat]

chrisgaia thanks for sharing those very special pictures.
isaldiri. I think it is a tough call. Yes I guess CLR was hoping to make a profit and it did not work out which I am surprised about.
I suppose the next real test will be the GT2RS.
Lets say for arguments sake I had an allocation for King Kong.
I really would like to drive and enjoy it.
Someone comes along and offers me an additional £200K.
It would be very hard to resist the profit.
Does that make me a bad person.

[CarreraLightweightRacing]

isaldiri said:

Exactly how is it 'not quite' that you tried to flip the RS apart from the fact it didn't work out in your favour? Whether or not most wouldn't have said no to an allocation, it doesn't make it any less of a flip that you took an allocation of a car you had no intention of doing anything else than selling immediately for profit and therefore depriving someone of getting a car that he might have held on to be used for it's intended purpose ie driving. Enthusiast or not, I'd prefer to call a spade a spade.

This was not the intention. Plan was to run the car for a year, safe in the knowledge that we wouldn't lose our shirts when the time came to sell. With the other party going AWOL, I did what I could to minimise my expose with the little time I had.
You can call it however you see fit, as far as I'm aware though, it is the OPC Principle's chosen few close friends that are the flippers you are somehow trying to align me with. I don't even know who the DP is at my OPC, let alone have a sniff at the 911R or other limited production offerings.
Also these genuine drivers of RS's you refer to that lost out. Have you actually looked at the mileage these cars are clocking up. There are very few driver's amongst the 6000 or so 991RS buyers. I don't think you are being particularly robust in your analysis of the current buyers. I offered my allocation at cost to a Porsche forum and there were no takers, so I certainly did not take up any potential genuine drivers slot. If Porsche hadn't created this nonsense in the first place, then they would only be selling 682 RS's, like they did when the 996RS was only being bought by the genuine drivers, and they would all be dropping 50% in value over 3 years.

Still if any of this helps MTR, in deciding whether now is the right time for him to buy/sell or not, is unlikely.

[isaldiri]

SRT Hellcat said:

I really would like to drive and enjoy it.
Someone comes along and offers me an additional £200K.
It would be very hard to resist the profit.
Does that make me a bad person.

Not at all, I absolutely would not fault anyone for taking that kind of profit. However, just me but I wouldn't then try to argue it wasn't flipped though.

The window for large profits on a lhd 991RS was quite small iirc, allocations kept on coming through slowly so people who were prepared to wait in the continent more or less got the cars from the OPCs without being forced to pay a premium (and can be seen per large numbers of the cars at the euro trackdays if you looked hard enough CLR. I have seen plenty at the ring and Spa when there over the past year).

Edited by isaldiri on Saturday 16th September 23:02

[SRT Hellcat]

isaldiri said:

Not at all, I absolutely would not fault anyone for taking that kind of profit. However, just me but I wouldn't then try to argue it wasn't flipped though.

Edited by isaldiri on Saturday 16th September 23:02

By definition you are absolutely correct

[CarreraLightweightRacing]

SRT Hellcat said:

isaldiri said:

Not at all, I absolutely would not fault anyone for taking that kind of profit. However, just me but I wouldn't then try to argue it wasn't flipped though.

By definition you are absolutely correct

Fair enough isaldiri, you win on a technicality

I've learnt my lesson and wouldn't advise anyone to get involved in this sort of arrangement.
The underlying root cause will not go away though. Look no further than the £300K+ 997SC for how silly this game has become. As SRT has accurately pointed out; the GT2RS is just the next in a continuous line of embers keeping this fire lit, with the trickle down effect to the lower order of PAG products.

[Phooey]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Fashion plays a huge part IMO. I've not read all of this but 2nd paragraph -

As bankers to the wealthy Coutts revealed in a recent report, Old Masters have fallen from favour, with prices down 40% from their peak a decade ago. Oriental carpets and rugs are completely out of fashion, with prices back to where they were in 2005. Even the boom in classic cars has stalled, with Ferrari prices in reverse by 10% last year. But Coutts said photography has emerged as the hottest new investment for the very well-off. Photos by Gilbert and George, Robert Mapplethorpe and Andreas Gursky all fetched more than $400,000 at auctions in 2016.

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/sep/16/phot...

[TB993tt]

I find myself drawn to this topic as I'd quite like a 991 GT2RS to drive and my LOI from 2013 and subsequent attempts have so far proven fruitless.

I am interested in what people think of the 991 GT3RS situation ? They apparently made over 6000 of these worldwide which is a huge amount, there are not 6000 people who would want to drive this car so a big percentage must be for spectulators/collectors. Looking in the PH classifieds show there are lots for sale in the UK most with minimal miles. Seeing as this isn't a limited model and not a rare model, has a relatively modest engine (compared with the latest 991.2 GT3 motor which looks like it is something really special) what will happen to this car ? I think a small wobble in the UK like interest rate rise or a Brexit related market adjustment could send prices of this car tumbling to where they should be for a 2015 second hand car which for me today should be around £100K, I just can't see a demand a two year old "older tech" RS being strong it surely must be the first model to plummet ?

With this in mind I am thinking some of those people who speculated on the RS (like the gent above) will be the same people going for the GT2RS (I know personally two pals who are both trying hard to get the GT2RS with no intention of driving it !) so I am kind of hoping for that wobble to happen. The GT2 was always a very limited model because not many people want to ride round in a RWD overtorqued 911 so the current demand is mostly speculator driven (although I accept that making them auto and a nannyfest must make them much more accessible).
I am still hopeful of an invitation to buy mid next year when maybe there will have been some Brexit related economy wobbles and/or an interest rate rise and Porsche will be trying to flog the second production run..... this is actually what happened with me being allowed to buy a 997GT2 (2008/9 financial crash - obvs am not wishing for that )

Anyway, off to Frankfurt this afternoon so I will be looking out for a senior looking Porsche bod so I can bend his ears a bit

[911wise]

What's the general consensus on a 996 turbo been a safe place to put your money for next couple of years?
Has the market topped on them? Seems to have at best slowed.

[MDL111]

911wise said:

What's the general consensus on a 996 turbo been a safe place to put your money for next couple of years?
Has the market topped on them? Seems to have at best slowed.

in my opinion no car is a safe bet over the next few years (at least if by safe bet you mean the risk of it losing a certain percentage of its value is low). 996 Turbos were as low as - I believe - 20k (maybe a little more not so long ago), no reason they should not get back to that level given they are relatively mass produced cars with no particular driver/enthusiast credentials. as usual on here my opinion phrased as fact, so take with a grain of salt

[Koln-RS]

If/when the market does tighten its belt - most likely if economic confidence starts to weaken - then the first cars to suffer are likely to be those that are potentially expensive to run.

Servicing, insurance, fuel consumption, consumables.... are deterrents to ownership. I'd say that a 996Turbo could be vulnerable.

[hunter 66]

It has started already ..... only the premium stuff will survive .....
Back to normal then , buy car , rag it , lose money , have fun !!
Pheeeew

[911wise]

For me at the moment it's either a 997.2 or a 996 turbo. This was the case for me a few months ago but I bought something else. Now I'm back here again the 997.2 more modern vastly improved interior etc. My thinking with the 996 was could keep couple of years and at worst lose a few k or just maybe get my money back. Now I'm not so sure. A good example was up for sale in may when I last looked it's still there now.

[FocusRS3]

911wise said:

For me at the moment it's either a 997.2 or a 996 turbo. This was the case for me a few months ago but I bought something else. Now I'm back here again the 997.2 more modern vastly improved interior etc. My thinking with the 996 was could keep couple of years and at worst lose a few k or just maybe get my money back. Now I'm not so sure. A good example was up for sale in may when I last looked it's still there now.

For me not 996 Turbo at these prices instead if i was sold on a 996 it'd be a 996 4S.

Gen 2 997 with good spec id go for personally

[MDL111]

hunter 66 said:

It has started already ..... only the premium stuff will survive .....
Back to normal then , buy car , rag it , lose money , have fun !!
Pheeeew

Amen to that - I am looking forward to "back to normal" when pistonheads discussions will be about driving again and losing money on your car is just par for the course and nothing to discuss anymore.

[Fokker]

FocusRS3 said:

911wise said:

For me at the moment it's either a 997.2 or a 996 turbo. This was the case for me a few months ago but I bought something else. Now I'm back here again the 997.2 more modern vastly improved interior etc. My thinking with the 996 was could keep couple of years and at worst lose a few k or just maybe get my money back. Now I'm not so sure. A good example was up for sale in may when I last looked it's still there now.

For me not 996 Turbo at these prices instead if i was sold on a 996 it'd be a 996 4S.

Gen 2 997 with good spec id go for personally

But in manual form

[FocusRS3]

Fokker said:

But in manual form

Manual yes although Pdk on the gen 2 was far better than the push button system before it

[911wise]

FocusRS3 said:

Manual yes although Pdk on the gen 2 was far better than the push button system before it

Yes, I'd b looking at a PDK.

[Fokker]

In terms of investment potential or at least a better monetary purchase, I would be looking at a manual 997 over a PDK. Good ones are hard to find and have been appreciating.

I had a PDK Cayman R 981, just an observation but it had no blips on the down change and felt pretty flat compared to the newer PDK in the 981/991.
It ruined a good car for me. There is also the issue of reliability on the complex PDK box if out of warranty.